[00:00:00] Hello everybody and welcome to the Crypto Hipster podcast. This is your host Jamil Hasan,
[00:00:07] the Crypto Hipster, where I interview founders, entrepreneurs, executives, thought leaders,
[00:00:12] artists you name across the world, crypto and blockchain globally and I have an amazing
[00:00:17] guest for you today. He is coming to us. He's right now. He's in Dubai. He is the CEO and
[00:00:24] co-founder of Coignify. His name is Mark Highguard. Mark, welcome.
[00:00:29] Thank you so much, Jamil and thank you for having me.
[00:00:33] Very welcome. Very welcome. So let's kick things off and ask you first. What is your
[00:00:40] background and is it a logical background for what you're doing now?
[00:00:44] Well that's a great question. I guess it is. I think I had my first job when I was at the
[00:00:52] age of 12. Then I started my own kind of wheelings and dealings. Later on in my life,
[00:00:59] I studied economy and philosophy and actually a very nice combination out of a Copenhagen
[00:01:05] business school in Denmark where you are questioning the obvious and you're looking into economy
[00:01:10] with some other perspectives which actually is what we do when we are talking about the crypto
[00:01:15] economy and what is real money and all that good stuff. Starting Karl Marx the capital,
[00:01:19] thus capital, actually something you should consider reading if you haven't done that talking
[00:01:25] about what is value in some extent. Well after my economy and philosophy study I started my first
[00:01:35] venture backed company as the age of 20 and yeah the next 30 years has been one big roller coaster
[00:01:43] of being involved in many interesting startups. Very cool. One of the startups is as coinify right?
[00:01:52] So what is that all about and what tested apart from other crypto payments solutions?
[00:01:58] Yeah you can say coinify started very early on it was in 2014 so we are kind of some of the OGs
[00:02:06] in the business started in all you know small basements around the world in BDOP's talking about
[00:02:12] the Bitcoin phenomenon to tiniers after we made an exit to a first stock exchange company in Canada
[00:02:20] New York as well and you can say the company is say two things two headed beast. We do payments
[00:02:30] which is one of the major parts of the industry and we do trading. So I came back to payments.
[00:02:35] We allow people to pay with cryptocurrencies on websites and we do that by converting the
[00:02:42] cryptocurrencies to whatever currency you need as fiat currencies, US dollars, euros and so forth
[00:02:48] and do that payout. What are we differentiating ourselves in that sense is that we are working with
[00:02:53] the biggest payment operators in the world or payment service providers that they also call
[00:02:59] so that is a well line it's new way it's a nixie in Europe the biggest in Europe and more or less
[00:03:06] a big chunk of the biggest payment service providers in the world and that implies that we need to
[00:03:12] have the highest level of compliance in our operation we need to hire classic financial people
[00:03:18] to understand their language and deliver a service that live up to any standards in the
[00:03:23] in classic fiat world. Checking back to the trading point we help exchanges wallets with what
[00:03:30] we call an industry on off-ramp meaning that you can with a credit card with Apple Pay with bank
[00:03:36] transfer you can buy crypto and stole them directly on a wallet so we are not the wallet we are
[00:03:42] not the exchange but we simply helped to on an off-ramp crypto where we kind of spearhead that
[00:03:49] in the early days we did that for popluxing.com the biggest wallet at the time back in 16 17 18 we
[00:03:58] did that for three years now there's a lot of others in the market but what we differentiate
[00:04:02] ourselves is we have done a very successful white club OTC desk we believe that what we see now
[00:04:10] is a lot of new commerce coming into the market they want to go in big with more than $100 and
[00:04:17] they need a live person like you and me sitting talking face to face on a webcam and doing these
[00:04:24] traits where the trust is up in the highest level possible so that's what we do payment trade
[00:04:31] and VIP trade for for you can say people who want to invest in the millions family office
[00:04:36] climate for the individuals and so forth. Awesome so trading I want to talk about that first right
[00:04:47] there are some announcements you know I should we go back to the January with the ETFs in the US but
[00:04:53] then this past week there were ETFs or ETPs in the UK that were not going to be allowed so
[00:05:02] how's that going to impact you know not only trading but like the market like for retail
[00:05:09] usage like Spotify Uber and their consumer payment gateways. I definitely believe that it's
[00:05:17] changing the sentiment in the market at the moment since professional investors corporate headphones
[00:05:23] can suddenly interact with the right now only the Bitcoin but potentially also other of these
[00:05:29] crypto it somehow gives a big trust to the industry and that's why we see big merchants who perhaps
[00:05:37] are hitting into this field as well because they see that this is maybe not that dangerous that
[00:05:43] assuming they believe it was like few years ago and I actually believe it's fair even though
[00:05:50] we've been talking to the biggest brands in the world for ages about please you should consider
[00:05:55] accepting cryptocurrencies but they have a brand to protect and even down then people you know
[00:06:01] proclaim Bitcoin is dead you know how many times family we've read that Jamil this it's ridiculous
[00:06:06] right but you also have the ICOs with a lot of negative press which is completely fair you have
[00:06:13] the glory days that I ended up with a crash of FTX three arrows and many others so of course
[00:06:19] these brands have their their brand to to protect and it has been difficult for them to say especially
[00:06:25] for the legal and compliance department to say listen we want to go all in and you know even though
[00:06:31] they're not touching the crypto by accepting with using Coinfizer Milman but they still put their
[00:06:37] brand into something that they cannot control but as said with these new ETFs of this world coming
[00:06:44] I think we're bringing much more trust to the market and we are seeing bigger and bigger brands
[00:06:49] saying hey we want to do this as well
[00:06:55] dimension ICOs dimension FTX we got a we got a new problem it's called mean points
[00:07:03] right how do you see on your end yet affect their sentiment or is it too early
[00:07:10] well uh we have done some rather good traits on different mean coins however we are very
[00:07:18] reluctant on giving our toes into this space being a company that is protecting the biggest PSPs
[00:07:25] in the world the payment service providers right so we cannot unbought these as means of payments
[00:07:32] to start with and for trading uh some of our clients which is a DeFi project that use us as on
[00:07:39] an off ramp they potentially have a meme coin that they are you know using our BGC trading
[00:07:46] and then they swap into their own meme coins and I also believe this is a new circus that
[00:07:53] is running and we will see a lot of you know pump and dumps in the market and uh we are very
[00:07:57] reluctant on unengaging with these types of businesses
[00:08:04] so you'll you reckon you would you would do recommend that what types of currencies this payment
[00:08:08] currently is paired up here uh these payment companies should accept like Bitcoin and you know
[00:08:14] maybe a theory maybe like coin and stuff like that right indeed um and speaking of
[00:08:21] crypto as a means of payment when we started coinifying 14 we were completely big believers
[00:08:28] that Bitcoin was the future payments we can see today that Bitcoin is not a classic payment vehicle
[00:08:34] it it has a completely different uh asset or attribute attached to it uh even though honestly
[00:08:40] when you look at our our data and we do millions of uh of transactions we see still the dominant part
[00:08:47] as Bitcoin as a payment vehicle but it doesn't really make sense and I don't believe that will be
[00:08:52] the future um also a theorem we see those but it's not a payment vehicle as well uh
[00:09:00] light coin is trying to reduce the gas fees and make some services that allows you to do smaller
[00:09:05] transactions for lower fee which actually makes sense um but you know comparing the different
[00:09:12] types of tokens um our cryptos as a means of payment I don't believe we have seen
[00:09:18] a crypto that really is the future of payments um however uh the stablecoin is something we see
[00:09:26] as a theme that more and more people are doing uh traits big traits commodity trading
[00:09:33] in in in stablecoins similar to you you know uh the bricks in china where they're trying to
[00:09:39] hit out of the rails of a USTC so um we see uh it's spiked in the USDC especially
[00:09:46] in the stablecoin section uh as a means of payment because it actually makes sense
[00:09:51] and honestly when you look at the Bitcoin price right now would you use it to buy a bike or car
[00:09:56] or you know especially when it goes up not really maybe if it's stable you will
[00:10:01] but uh but no even Bitcoin is not the future payment in my book
[00:10:07] you know I had somebody who used to work with um and my company breach out to me recently
[00:10:12] and say hey this guy wants to buy my company for me uh one of my companies for me using Bitcoin
[00:10:19] and um can that possible as he has possible but if you cash that out in less than a year then
[00:10:26] it's going to be treated as ordinary income so you know as opposed to a long-term capital game
[00:10:31] to hold it over a year so just make sure when you want to cash out if you want to pay the regular
[00:10:36] rate or have a business benefit and he's like how to think about that so um in order for something
[00:10:43] like that to happen there have to be there have to be mainstream integrations there have to be
[00:10:47] different rail setup you know things have to happen right so what mainstream integration is to
[00:10:54] use the coming down the pipe in 2024 and beyond yeah um first and foremost you're you're
[00:11:00] hitting the point there to me um regulation is important to start this uh in the beginning it
[00:11:07] was all about is this a commodity uh is it VAT or is it not VAT you know is it money or is it
[00:11:14] a commodity and there's still a lot of hassle around you the whole regulation of this which makes
[00:11:19] it difficult to digest you know I am owing attacks authority anything or not um but back to
[00:11:25] your question um what I see as a major theme approaching is um tokenization of assets
[00:11:34] and um what you see there is that something that is uh illiquid as some kind of an asset
[00:11:41] you can tokenize it and make it liquid and um it has been a problem for many companies to
[00:11:47] to get this into the you can say mainstreamness however uh if you look at a company from US
[00:11:54] called Invenium based on some form of Disney uh CEOs um or directors um you will see that they have
[00:12:03] actually in my opinion cracked a lot in terms of connecting the dots of a really state owner
[00:12:10] putting their really state on the Invenium platform which then makes it into a language that
[00:12:16] deloitte or you know any other big accounting companies can digest to suddenly you have the
[00:12:21] accounting understanding once you are tokenizing your assets and since they have connected the dots
[00:12:29] they have already unboughted $70 million of a billion of dollars as assets on their platform
[00:12:37] and I think not only the organization of assets but companies being the middleware that
[00:12:43] connects the dots from the non-classic thinking world and this new world of Web 3 or tokenization
[00:12:50] of assets you know those middleware companies they will have a huge success and every time you see
[00:12:56] a company who really makes that happening you see a growth in the space so that is one of the
[00:13:02] big themes I believe is uh interesting for me to follow and then again going back to the
[00:13:07] stablecoin I think the stablecoin will help a lot of companies doing big trades of commodities
[00:13:14] um and yeah yeah they're bypassing the bank rails but as long as it's done completely you have
[00:13:20] a wallet that shows you your escrow so you have an escrow account being the ledger and you can trust
[00:13:27] each other because you don't have those measurements in between so stablecoin themes,
[00:13:31] tokenization of assets, something that's going to be big and companies who somehow kind of
[00:13:37] quantify being the middleware between fear meets the blockchain blockchain goes back to fear
[00:13:42] these types of middleware companies they are doing the big success for for driving different
[00:13:46] industries of this sector you know in into a big success so it's interesting to talk about middleware
[00:13:58] um I've seen the prices or the price action or and you know the communities in some middleware
[00:14:05] tokens not have the finest hour recently but I but I think middleware would be a part of
[00:14:12] decentralized money solutions you know and the stars have to align the right way for that those
[00:14:18] DeFi solutions to work properly so what are those stars aligning you know so that
[00:14:26] the UX the user experience with read option can move forward in DeFi.
[00:14:33] Yeah um I think if you look at the classic whip 3 uh oh sorry whip 2 and not the grip 3 world
[00:14:42] I think they will still use the idea of having payments crypto payments it's not only for
[00:14:50] the whip 3 world and so starting with the classic whip 2 world when you have a website and you're
[00:14:55] selling goods I think you will see that they will all accept cryptocurrencies in the future
[00:15:01] A we talk about the trustability B let's go back to the market size being uh us in
[00:15:08] coinify trying to get this into companies and in 2014 they said yeah fine how many wallets
[00:15:14] is there alive right now 20 million maybe we're going for 100 million soon so
[00:15:20] what it says now is that we are about a 200 million in 2021 alone and it's it has a
[00:15:28] adopting curve quicker than um internet adoption and by that uh in 2013 you have 1 billion wallets
[00:15:35] out there so even the classic whip 2 companies will have a such a big market that they cannot
[00:15:42] not say no to it will be a need to have to say hey we need to have a cryptocurrency whatever it is
[00:15:49] a gateway that allows me to interact with those people and then of course when you see
[00:15:55] what's happening in the whip 3 space with smart contracts use engagement uh this micro economies
[00:16:01] where you actually give the concept or the value back to all the users when they're contributing
[00:16:05] to something you will see a huge growth in that I'm still the one who've been around since 14
[00:16:11] I don't believe it will happen overnight uh i'm in Dubai for conferences uh whip panels uh
[00:16:16] you know different types of things and there's a ton of great initiative out there for the whip 3
[00:16:21] but I would say give it a year or two before you see the big alignment of especially whip 3 fine
[00:16:30] that's what i was thinking a couple of years yeah um so
[00:16:39] getting those retail okay so that's the alignment of de-fi with institutions but getting retail
[00:16:45] you know um they say whoever wins whoever gets the attention of retail with love and retail is
[00:16:51] going to be the winner in the long run right um but when we wanted to get there we have to get
[00:16:56] retail comfortable using payment gateways use it and then also you know comfortable trading too
[00:17:01] um so how do we get them how do we get retail comfortable because to me the retail I know they're
[00:17:07] not there yet you're right Emil and uh and since we are doing you know we have a huge backlog right now
[00:17:17] signing up new merchants coming from the big payment service providers we are not there yet
[00:17:21] we don't have the biggest super super apps we don't have the biggest merchants except the crypto yet
[00:17:27] and one thing is to do an online transaction with a Bitcoin or a Firm or whatever token
[00:17:33] or a stable coin and nothing to do it inside a store where you have to somehow insect your phone with
[00:17:38] a point of sale like a physical terminal reading a QR code on some extent having an interaction
[00:17:45] educating staff you know all that stuff so there is a long way to go we are pretty successful
[00:17:50] uh we have 30% year and year growth since 14 on payment so we cannot say that it's not being adopted
[00:17:56] but it's not huge yet at least for coinify how we want to win this is to again going back to the trust side
[00:18:05] um the gateways similar to us uh we all need to have the highest level of of um um um
[00:18:13] compliance and I think it's good for coinify to have a been around for since 14 so we're kind of old
[00:18:20] brand in this new world and acting as a complied first um on top of that as said before we don't
[00:18:28] interact with these thousand different tokens or the meme of the week that now you can also pay
[00:18:33] with that buying uh you can say we actually insect with Gucci's and and fit it blind which is a huge
[00:18:39] fashion brand they're using coinify for for their payments um but you know in general it's
[00:18:46] difficult to get the big ones but if we are telling them that a we are not taking all different
[00:18:50] coins that could potentially blow up we only have 16 coins today that we serve for for our merchants
[00:18:57] we are waiting on ebliptic and other for instance tools if the coins have been coming from a you know
[00:19:03] stolen a red tape because like you can do it you cannot do that with cash on the counter they
[00:19:07] can be stolen money right but we can actually detect in multiple blocks where the crypto is coming from
[00:19:14] so of course we do that as well so we need to give them like being overly dramatic about how we
[00:19:21] are serving them and protecting them for anything out there because it's difficult for them to
[00:19:26] comprehend this world and we need to be the protector protector of the brand so I think the big successes
[00:19:31] to be very compliant been in the business for a long time and once one big merchant is on then
[00:19:38] maybe the next one of the next one will go it's just a matter of having this you know ban wrecking
[00:19:43] effect starting at least that's our approaching in coinify and we're pretty successful about that
[00:19:49] right now so I'm confident about the future of payments even though I'm also saying that
[00:19:54] it's not just right now it's going through the roof but definitely it seems like everything is
[00:19:59] heading in the right direction for payments well that's good that's good um I want to get your
[00:20:07] I want to get your thoughts on what the payment like you said you said the USDC
[00:20:11] what the long-term payment winners are going to be or do you think we had out of the 20,000 tokens
[00:20:17] or whatever it is uh that's right now we haven't created that that ultimate payment token
[00:20:24] yet and what that is going to be and what the winners the losers are going to be and what it should look
[00:20:29] like yeah um looking at payment again um USDT is definitely one of the big ones right
[00:20:37] USDC is not that big anymore then you have a another stablecoin the maker dial is a dial
[00:20:44] it's very difficult to comprehend a dial I have to start with but the maker is quite interesting
[00:20:50] and they're also making a UR dollar somehow a dollar picked the stablecoin based out of European
[00:20:57] legislation which is actually quite interesting so I think you will find these stablecoins
[00:21:04] to start with um Bitcoin cash Bitcoin is me and a lot of the others who try to make a payment system
[00:21:11] dash for that matter um honestly I don't believe they will become that you know standard of payments
[00:21:18] so it has to be something that's deriving out of the stablecoins team if we haven't the winner yet
[00:21:24] I don't know but at least we have some great contests in the USDC and the the maker
[00:21:29] foundation and I'm happy to follow that closely to see who's the winner in that sense
[00:21:35] talking about the winner in general you know I think it's difficult to compare a theorem with Bitcoin
[00:21:40] because it solves different problems Bitcoin and say it's intelligent gold,
[00:21:45] theorem, it's smart contract um and but if you're looking at it as a what will drive the biggest
[00:21:52] value if you are investor because we also do trade I would say that Bitcoin is still a
[00:21:58] limited resource 21 million that's it the half thing is quite clever uh yes it's difficult to
[00:22:05] comprehend that you don't have a real owner who is behind it but um but the technology and
[00:22:12] how it's built I see there's no end to the potential value of the Bitcoin
[00:22:18] if theorem they will or maybe Solana which is a very strong contestant to to it theorem
[00:22:23] let's think they will they will definitely drive the theme of smart contracts and what's going to
[00:22:28] happen in the free space um so so there will also be some kind of a winner in that sense um so
[00:22:36] that's at least my take on it at this point it is difficult to say anything about pricing and
[00:22:41] I know that stuff people love to say hey what should I buy tomorrow say I don't
[00:22:44] I have no clues and we are not in point if I'm giving an advice but my personal opinion is that
[00:22:50] if I was only to a hundred dollars that I should bet on on something and hopefully get more out of it
[00:22:55] I will I will go for the Bitcoin price wise yeah you know a lot of people ask me what
[00:23:03] what my price predictions are and my my answer is always the same as I don't know
[00:23:08] exactly I just don't yeah generally fun story fun story there uh in coinificence 14
[00:23:17] evict Christmas Eve our Christmas dinner not at the e but that's Christmas dinner we do a
[00:23:22] Bitcoin guessing game and then we added to the film uh when uh if the film came into the mix we
[00:23:27] started when it was all about Bitcoin right and even though we have all the techniques and we have
[00:23:33] the sea levels and we have everyone you know googling every day hearing things you know what's
[00:23:37] happening in the market we are so way off you know because a year after we're looking at what did
[00:23:43] you write that night and what's happening one year after is it you know who is the closest
[00:23:48] and people are off like 50 000 hundred thousand dollars and of course somebody hits it pretty close
[00:23:55] but even us as assume the experts we cannot detect the price of a even Bitcoin one year hit
[00:24:01] and of course if we could we will not much like you not do anything by by being or equals
[00:24:06] but it is difficult and I will never give any advice I will only say that if I had some money to
[00:24:12] put on one thing as an investor I think Bitcoin based on the technology the logic behind it the
[00:24:18] viscosity elements I think that is uh I would say that's a most safe bit but I will never say it's safe
[00:24:25] it'll be wrong right something scared me yesterday I was like um and it goes back to the real world
[00:24:33] as it took anization okay I saw it on I saw it as an interview as part of Anthony Poinpliano who has
[00:24:39] many more podcasts than me although I'm catching up um there's a public there's a public offering
[00:24:45] today in the US for Reddit right and there's a coin uh called Reddit similar name not related
[00:24:56] at all right but the Reddit coin is up 400% in a week or two and it looks like a theme maybe
[00:25:07] that meme coins get with the same name as stocks in the US get launched at the same time
[00:25:14] and as a competitor to those world world stock assets that might that's in me was all scary because
[00:25:22] you know it might undermine the stock right or I don't know what are your I want to see if you have
[00:25:29] what are your thoughts would be in some of the security things that we need to look at
[00:25:34] when we're launching when we're launching crypto on real world assets to make sure they're aligned
[00:25:40] with those assets generally are yeah it's a it's a big theme to jump into but you're completely right
[00:25:47] we have we have an issue here and uh with these meme coins and pump and dumps and maybe using AI tools
[00:25:55] to our smart everyone making a lot of post and a lot of uh fuss about something and even taking
[00:26:02] another name and bringing that up and make a pump and dump scheme I think that is that is definitely
[00:26:07] a problem and and that's why we need the regulation uh we need to regulate this market much stronger
[00:26:14] we cannot see a new FTX case once again we cannot see that these uh you know people can do a
[00:26:21] million dollar overnight because they're pumping up something people are following and then
[00:26:26] it all crashes it's it's kills the industry and the the professionalism behind the beautiful
[00:26:31] like if you look at blockchain it's a beautiful technology uh it solves so many problems but we
[00:26:36] need to detect this um we actually been part of the meeket regulation out of europe uh we as a group
[00:26:43] of different companies in the industry we said listen we need to help europe to make a stronger
[00:26:49] you can say a stronger framework for how we regulate this space uh we started with the ml5 director
[00:26:55] and now moving to the meeket and we did more than 200 amendments and I think more than 100 has been
[00:27:00] implemented to the meeket regulation simply because we need to help the governments
[00:27:06] the governmental bodies to regulate this stronger to find out who's doing a classic
[00:27:13] gam and also finding them and bring them to some kind of a called like you will do in the
[00:27:18] classic world of uh of uh of uh of ducks or any other so yeah my take is that I think it's sad uh that
[00:27:28] people are still kind of a little bit honestly to to jump on these things and hopefully get rich overnight
[00:27:35] because they've stood and they've read something and uh and hopefully at some point there will be enough
[00:27:39] of these games that the people are learning about it and say this and we we're too too bright not to
[00:27:46] jump into it all there's a higher level of regulation and authorities to to find the people and
[00:27:54] somehow give people penalties I don't know what you think is the meal but uh something has to be done
[00:28:00] right i agree with you i agree with you i'm like you know um i would love to see the industry succeed
[00:28:07] sustainable sustainably for the long term right because of the technology wonderful you know
[00:28:12] um and i just think we have to address you know things upfront and not just uh you know after the fact
[00:28:21] so you know indeed and that is a problem because things are getting so fast so once they
[00:28:27] regulate something something new is happening in the market so you know regulators and the law will
[00:28:32] always be behind with the exponential growth of of things uh and maybe that's a problem when
[00:28:38] you add in different types of technologies into one especially the AI world and then adding this
[00:28:44] you can potentially build mechanics that is so difficult to detect even even though we wanted to
[00:28:52] though uh hopefully people also have a good mindset being reluctant about potential scams
[00:28:58] so this game doesn't get that pump and dump happening so to speak
[00:29:03] i agree some more to be revealed right yes indeed
[00:29:09] indeed it's always that uh but i thank you very much for your time today i really enjoy speaking with
[00:29:15] you um and the last question it's um how can people find a more information about you
[00:29:22] about pointify how can you become a client how can they do that
[00:29:25] yes that coinify.com you will read about our nine different financial products that we are serving
[00:29:34] uh starting with the payment and trade as a big one so then we have a lot of different specific
[00:29:38] things underneath do it coinify.com you'll be able to read about our service otherwise if you
[00:29:44] are in the trading world we are okay exchange we are very close to ledger which is a super
[00:29:49] compliant and strong exchange where you are using a stick where you can equip it a
[00:29:56] a stick that is uh you know with a high level of security and then you can see your
[00:30:03] your crypto offline so to speak on your phrases so let's do something we do very close
[00:30:09] and if you want to do a shield trade you can also do that by coinify.com and hit that i want to
[00:30:16] trade for more than 50 thousand dollars or again we do that serving ledger's client as well.
[00:30:25] Awesome thank you very much for your time today. Thank you thank you thank you for having me
[00:30:30] have a good day.