Dr. Karl Huber is the co-founder of Quai Network, a new Layer 1 network of blockchains that scales to handle all human commerce while maintaining true decentralization. Dr. K’s vision for a trustless decentralized replacement for money began in 2018 with a National Science Foundation Research Grant. Dr. K has a PhD in engineering, formerly worked at ConsenSys, and has been active in crypto since 2012. He has authored or co-authored dozens of peer-reviewed articles and papers and has contributed to many ground-breaking developments in the crypto space.
[00:00:03] Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Crypto Hipster Podcast. This is your host, Jamil Hasan, the Crypto Hipster, where I interview founders, entrepreneurs, executives, thought leaders, amazing people all around the world of crypto and blockchain. And today I have another amazing guest. I have a treat for you today. Number one, I interviewed his colleague a few months ago. And number two, it's probably the easiest name that I've interviewed out of everybody I've interviewed.
[00:00:31] I have Dr. K, who is the co-founder of the Quai Network. Dr. K, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. Very welcome. So let's kick things off and I'll ask you the first question I ask everybody is this, is what is your background and is it a logical background for what you're doing now?
[00:00:51] Yeah, so I found Bitcoin in the 2012 sort of timeframe. And what originally attracted me to it was sort of the libertarian sort of underpinnings and the ideas of separating money from the state. But more importantly, just creating sort of a voluntary economic system, if that makes sense. So I was actually doing my PhD at the time that I found Bitcoin.
[00:01:19] So as I was doing one in material science and engineering, I was also studying blockchain and distributed systems. Once I graduated in 17, I went to work for ConsenSys, worked there for about a year. And then another spin out called Grid Plus, where I designed and built and brought to market the Lattice One hardware wallet.
[00:01:41] The point of that was to create a wallet that was both secure, but also sort of abstracted crypto so that you could have a UI UX experience that would allow for mass adoption. And specifically abstracting seed phrases to smart cards. So Lattice One is kind of this device that you plug smart cards into and you can sort of use crypto like a smart card in a pin.
[00:02:10] As I was doing that, I realized that potentially the bigger limitation was actually the scalability of the blockchains themselves if you're trying to use them transactionally. And I came up with the idea of a proof of work scaling mechanism through a hierarchy of merge bind blockchains. I proposed the idea to someone that I knew at UT, a prof, and he got together sort of a group of students and sort of turned into a research project on the side.
[00:02:40] Eventually got some National Science Foundation funding, worked on that for a couple of years, and then started working on implementing it full time in 2022. So it took us about three years to sort of write an implementation of sort of that research we had done. There were other things that also happened in those three years. We came up with sort of the monetary two token system of having Kwai and Chi.
[00:03:09] We also came up with Poem, which was the sort of consensus mechanism that's required to do the hierarchy of merge bind blockchains. So it took us from idea to going live about seven years. But the point is to build a system that can actually be a global decentralized monetary system.
[00:03:35] So the reason that we took our time is because we want to design it to, you know, have Visa-like properties in terms of time to settlement, to have scale that was big enough to handle things so that the whole Western world could use it. And when I say Western, I mean the whole world. It's just I should rather say the whole world that has access to smartphones and the Internet, I guess, is kind of the design criteria.
[00:03:59] And then also so that it had some privacy properties with Chi and that it had a sustainable sort of economic system with sort of the two token Kwai-Chi relationship. So we decided that we wanted to build all of those features in before launching. And so we completed everything before we actually launched the network, which is a not commonly followed path.
[00:04:27] Most times projects launch and then their product is a roadmap. Our product is the product. So there's no real roadmap here. Everything is done. It's just now using the protocol, building the protocol and getting it adopted. Got it. So let's talk about the protocol. What is Kwai Network all about, including your vision, your mission? Yeah, so it's to build a decentralized global monetary system.
[00:04:53] So fundamentally, when Satoshi wrote the white paper, he called it peer-to-peer electronic cash. In the interceding 15 years, I think it's pretty apparent that Bitcoin has failed in accomplishing that goal. It is, you know, by Bitcoin maxis even described as digital gold at this point. And that's fine.
[00:05:17] But that's also sort of emitting failure in developing peer-to-peer electronic cash. So there's some questions, too, in my mind. Is the Bitcoin concept economically sustainable in terms of, you know, miners over time? Inflation, somebody's dropping. Revenue is not rising because transaction throughput is somewhat limited.
[00:05:42] But the fundamental goal is to sort of ameliorate the shortcomings of Bitcoin, which causes it to feed digital gold and not peer-to-peer electronic cash. So to do that, we realized that to create a sustainable monetary system, you actually have to have two tokens. You need one that wants to be hoarded. You need one that wants to be spent. So one that encourages velocity so you can generate transaction fees. So in our system, we have two tokens.
[00:06:12] Quai is an EVM-compatible token. It's smart contracts. It's meant to be the store of value in the system. So akin to sort of Bitcoin's digital gold, I guess. And then the other token, Qi, we call an energy dollar. And its purpose is to create a unit of account in the system. So Qi has relatively stable purchasing power over time. It's what we would call a stable coin alternative.
[00:06:40] But it's a flat coin whose price is sort of related to the energy cost of producing a Qi. And then it also can function as a medium of exchange because it has cash-like privacy properties. So with those sort of two tokens, you can get the three properties of a monetary system, a store of value, a unit of account, and a medium of exchange all in one system with no sort of dependencies on the traditional financial rails. So if you look at like a Bitcoin or Ethereum and you say, what's wrong with USDC?
[00:07:09] What's wrong with USDC is that they're deposits in the traditional banks. And they're just receipts that sort of circulate on the blockchains. So anyone that holds USDC has issuer risk. They have custodial risk. They have inflationary risk. It's censored. It's trackable. And it's confiscatable. So we've sort of removed every property that we like or initially wanted blockchains to have from that system by using something like USDC.
[00:07:38] But the market has told us very obviously by the fact that 70% of transactions by value are currently in USDC stables that you need to have a stable token in the system. So something like Qi, you create that stable-like alternative, but it has no dependencies. It's completely endogenous to the system itself. So it doesn't have an oracle dependency. It doesn't have an issuer dependency. It doesn't have a custodial dependency. It doesn't have an inflationary dependency.
[00:08:06] It's all algorithmic, programmatic, economically discovered pricing. But it creates that stable in the system using proof of work as like the quote-unquote oracle, if you will. But it makes something that's a completely independent parallel monetary system, which is what you need if you want to move away from banks, central banks, arbitrary inflation, arbitrary issuance, arbitrary printing.
[00:08:38] Great. So I'm looking at comparing you against Bitcoin is Bitcoin doesn't have that sheet. You know? And then another comparable blockchain would be Litecoin because Litecoin has two elements. It has the Litecoin, whichever it is, the holder or not. And you have Dogecoin. But it's a meme and not a stable, not a dollar. So you're like the next level. Yeah.
[00:09:07] So like some people talk about Bitcoin, they kind of try to describe it as energy money. And they're not terribly wrong in some ways, but they are in the specifics, right? So it's energy money in that it must use energy to make a Bitcoin. However, the price of a Bitcoin doesn't reflect the energy that was used to make it. The price of Bitcoin is a convolution of factors, one of which is the energy that went to making the Bitcoin.
[00:09:36] The other piece is the current emission schedule, the current sort of stock to flow, the current future expected value. Right? So you don't get a pure representation of the production cost. You get a convolution of many factors, which creates a volatile asset. What we've done here is we have that sort of volatile asset in QI. But with Qi, we try to remove all of the other factors. So Qi is issued proportional to hash.
[00:10:03] So effectively, it's just a tokenization of hash, which is a tokenization of that energy. And with the two-token model, you can create the economics so that Qi's market price should always converge to its production cost in equilibrium. So what we're saying is we're taking that concept that some people talk about as Bitcoin being energy money, but we're trying to make the pure representation of it, which should then give you a stable reference point or asset,
[00:10:31] which you can use as an alternative to something like the dollar. Right. So you can use a payment. That's where the payment comes in. And that's why Bitcoin hasn't – Maxi's haven't wanted to talk about you yet. But they're going to have to. So you had a recent – I think a month old almost or a little over a month. You had a successful deployment to mainnet, right?
[00:10:55] What lessons did you learn during that deployment that you're taking towards future growth and development for, you know, QI and QI? Yeah. I mean, we did four test nets prior to mainnet. So a lot of the technical lessons we learned in those test nets. And from a technical perspective, the launch of the Genesis block, the turn on of the gas, and the network so far has been flawless.
[00:11:23] We haven't had any sort of technical issues, which is great. I will say in terms of, like, getting day one exchange integrations, it was a little disappointing. We got a couple. We were aiming for a couple tier ones. But the market at this point, there aren't many proof-of-work blockchains that launch.
[00:11:49] So sort of the nature of working with exchanges is different because when you launch a blockchain, things happen on blocks, not on, like, movable dates. If you're doing sort of, like, a proof-of-stake thing, you can move dates. You can, like, change when you launch it. You can change, like, anything you want, basically. But when you're in a proof-of-work system, we basically don't control the network. The miners do. So we set, like, a block number, and then, you know, you kind of have to work into it.
[00:12:16] So it's a lot more challenging because no one's really set up for it anymore because it's not often now that proof-of-work networks launch. So they kind of expect they can negotiate a date with you, and we're like, we can't negotiate a date. It's going to happen on this day no matter what we do, right? And if we told the miners to push it back, they're not going to push it back. So, like, you know, so that was a bit of a challenge. But, you know, that's fine.
[00:12:45] We're going to end up getting those integrations anyway. So, you know, it's all good, right? And then the cool part is all the features are baked in, so to speak, because we've already developed everything. But because it's a proof-of-work network, there's sort of, like, predicates of stability or whatnot, right? So, like, it's not uncommon in proof-of-work networks. You don't sort of allow transactions for a period of time, right? So we started mining. We didn't allow transactions for two weeks.
[00:13:15] And then, you know, transactions turned on. And then the next thing that turns on, I think, tomorrow is miners will be able to do something called, like, a LOX mining reward.
[00:13:30] So, in our system, because we're GPU mineable, and we made this decision to use a GPU-friendly algorithm for multiple sort of geo-strategic reasons, as well as sort of giving access to more boutique and hobby miners. So, you don't have the same capital security sync in a GPU system as you would in an ASIC-based system.
[00:13:56] So what we've done is we've constructed this concept where miners can actually lock their rewards and actually get more if they hold them over time. So it forces them to, like, commit capital, if you will, to the system, which then long-term aligns their interests because they're sort of committing capital by locking the rewards, if that makes sense. So, tomorrow, what will end up happening is miners will have the decision of they can lock their rewards for 3, 6, or 12 months.
[00:14:25] And at 12 months, they would actually get 25% more APY, basically, on their reward. And if they go 6 and 9, it's kind of like a normalized bond curve. So maybe – or 3 or 6. So, like, at 6 months, maybe it's, like, 11%. And at 3 months, APY – or it's 11%. So maybe it's, like, 20% APY. And then at 3 months, it's, like, 15% sort of APY, so to speak.
[00:14:50] But they can choose to lock things over time, which then gives you that capital commitment, which then gives you security that looks similar to an ASIC-based system, even though it's GP-mined. Interesting. Interesting. So it pays – actually, I think it makes sense. Always pays to have skin in the game. Yeah, well, and ASICs have the skin in the game, right? Because they have this, like, very high upfront cost, and they can't use it for anything else. Right?
[00:15:20] So they have that, like, intrinsic skin at some level. So, like, we're trying to make the analogous skin in the game for the GPU-based system. And we just don't like the distribution mechanics, the economic, like, barrier to entry, as well as the ability to control sort of the distribution of ASICs via import-export. We think those are bad, like, properties. But the concept of having sunk capital with the miners is a good property. So we've sort of figured a way to back into that.
[00:15:53] That sounds good to me. So I think you answered this already, but actually, as a part of this, I want to ask it. Why do we need public trustless replacement for fiat? I mean, you just have to listen to the news every day of your life, right? And there's always an answer why you need it, right?
[00:16:20] I mean, you know, fundamentally, you have the pure monetary problem, which is, right, we have taxes, which are arbitrary and pernicious, right? Most of us work as being nice indentured servants for five months of the year before we actually start making any money. And because they can arbitrarily print, they can inflate our purchasing power away, right? Eggs were like $10 a dozen the other day.
[00:16:50] Pretty ridiculous. I think we've seen very pernicious sort of inflation in the last few years. The other problem, though, is because of this sort of monopolistic relationship between the banks and the government to, you know, create money, right? The Federal Reserve is owned by the private banks, but it's sort of given this monopolistic printing power by the government. Basically, they're in this, you know, relationship that reinforces their own power.
[00:17:20] And it removes the power from the people, right? And then that power finds itself manifesting in more and more pernicious ways. If that's monitoring, if that's surveillance, if that's censorship, if eventually, right, everyone's kind of thinking. If you look at just current political policy, right, they try to use the economics of having that monopolistic power to, you know, favor certain groups, ideas or technologies, right? You know, that's pretty obvious.
[00:17:50] But the thing that's like more, I think, pernicious, the best example isn't actually originating from America, though we're not far off, is in Canada. You had those trucker protests. Are you familiar with this? Yeah. Right. So just to give like some background, I think this was 2023. So this was like very late sort of in sort of the COVID narrative, if you will.
[00:18:16] Well, the Canadian government wanted to mandate vaccines for truckers in Canada that like work alone in a truck. The truckers were like, we don't like this. So they went to the capital. They parked their trucks. They peacefully petitioned their supposedly democratically elected government to allow them to have some degree of bodily autonomy. And the government decided that they were going to declare a national emergency.
[00:18:42] They were going to steal their vehicles, steal their businesses, steal the money out of their bank accounts and freeze the bank accounts of anyone who donated money to those people who were peacefully petitioning their supposedly democratically elected government for bodily autonomy. So like right there is a pretty Orwellian outcome that happened over something that ended up having a very low mortality rate in most of the healthy demographics.
[00:19:13] So I think right there, like if you're somebody who's aware and independently thinking, I mean, that's pretty terrifying in terms of what that is. But that is telling you why you need money independent of the state. You need money that they can censor, that they can't control. So they can just arbitrarily create a national emergency and sort of steal all of your money because you disagree with them.
[00:19:44] Right. It's kind of a predicate for us to remain free independent individuals in a digital society, I think is the statement. And there's a lot of evidence that if we don't create systems that are perfectly decentralized, that they can't control, they can't arbitrarily confiscate, that we're going to end up in an Orwellian panopticon, not as free individuals.
[00:20:12] So I don't think the digital component of society is going away. I don't think that we're going to move away from this concept of digital currency in some format. So the important piece is making a digital currency, which reinforces the liberties of individuals, not the sort of monopoly and the sort of fascism of the state. Yeah, that sounds good to me.
[00:20:38] So you're looking, you are creating or have created a better form of money, right? So I want to find out about those unique features that cause it to be a better form, including the benefits of proof of entropy and merge mining. Yeah.
[00:20:59] So all of these features we've talked about have to do with the properties of the system outside of scalability. So the thing that makes this system worthwhile, that makes it more than just a proof of concept is that you can actually go to scale with it. So originally when sort of I came up with this idea, it was around sort of this engineering concept of how do you scale a proof of work blockchain?
[00:21:29] So how do you shard state without sharding work? Can we create subnets to reduce latencies? So on and so forth. And so we sort of built this system to just sort of answer the question of how do you scale using relatively known techniques for, you know, systems, right? The merge mining concept was sort of the original sort of concept that was needed for that.
[00:21:58] And that's why it's a merge mine hierarchy of chains. So effectively what that does is allows you to have sort of many chains that sort of can asynchronously progress, but then periodically synchronously reference each other through this merge mining process where they produce these coincident blocks, which effectively create a sort of higher blockchain.
[00:22:20] We call it a dominant blockchain that has blocks that are shared in the subordinate blockchains that have sort of a common hash. And so you create sort of objective hash link references between the chains. That was like the original kind of concept. Now, once we built that system, what we realized is that the choice in that system was very difficult in terms of if I have, you know, two chains that are. So we have sort of like a three layer hierarchy.
[00:22:50] So you have primes, you have regions, you have zones. Prime and region are header chains. And then the zones are kind of like your state chains. And so what ends up happening is as you're mining along in a zone, just statistically you get these coincident blocks. So you kind of have this zone threshold difficulty. And let's say it's, you know, 20 bits. And then you sort of get lucky. You'll find a block that meets the zone difficulty, but it also meets the region difficulty, which we'll say is like 25 bits.
[00:23:18] So you find five extra sort of zeros, you know, in the binary field and you sort of meet the region difficulty requirement. What you have found now is a region and zone block. So we call this a coincident block. And this is sort of how the zones can coordinate state. But there can be contention then set up in the question of, you know, if I found sort of a region block out of zone one and, you know, it has another region block was found in zone two.
[00:23:48] I can potentially create a conflict here about sort of which one I want to pick. Right. So effectively, what you need with POEM or proof of entropy minima is it gives us a causally invariant, which also just means deterministic mechanism of choosing those tips or choosing those chains, which are heaviest. And it works no matter how many chains we have.
[00:24:14] So in sort of the proof of work setting, you always potentially have like indeterminism and a simple fork with POEM. We created determinism no matter how many chains are running. And that allows us to sort of choose which blocks or chains are the longest as this is, you know, being built. And it works no matter how many of these shards we have. Got it. So you can ask a follow up. It's it's it's complicated.
[00:24:46] I'm going to I'm going to dig. So what you're saying is that POEM arbitrarily chooses which one of the two blocks in the coincidence blocks gets pushed forward. There's no there's no human involvement in the decision. It's it's just arbitrary completely. Yeah, well, so it's not arbitrary. It's actually aligned with the sort of expense of creating the chain.
[00:25:15] So the sort of measurement of POEM is trying to measure how many hashes in expectation you would need to create a chain of equal or longer weight. So it's taking in sort of all the history of the chain and creating weight and is trying to come up with sort of a representative number of hashes. But the way we do that is if you get into the math, we're effectively taking the field size minus the hash and we take the log of that.
[00:25:46] So intuitively what we're doing is if you think about just like a normal proof of work system, you have to meet a difficulty threshold. What that basically says is that you need a certain number of leading zeros in the binary field. Right. So for Bitcoin, it's like 60 right now. So you need 60 zeros before you get any ones. OK.
[00:26:10] And then what Bitcoin does is it says if you meet that threshold, we'll assign you sort of that value of 60. Right. And we'll just add these are. It's actually slightly different because because I'm already working in a logarithmic field, but they assign you that in the in the in the linear field. But they sort of give you that number and they sort of add these numbers up over time.
[00:26:34] What we do is we're saying every time you find a block, every other time you find one with 60, you'll actually find one with 61. And every quarter time you'll actually find one with 62 or more zeros. Right. So what we do is we measure all of the zeros plus those fractional zeros. So that's kind of like how you take the log. So I could say I have like 60.26483924 up to 256 bits of precision zeros.
[00:27:04] Right. So then anytime you compare two of these blocks, one of these blocks is always better than the other. So up into the point that you get a hash collision, you always have a choice in which block you're going to pick. But that's a cumulative like thing of precision over all of the blocks in the chain. So the blocks in the chain or the total chain weight and the block weight are always guaranteed to be unique up into the point of a hash collision. So basically they're always unique. And so you can always pick which one is heavier.
[00:27:34] And the one that's heavier sort of always aligns with the one that would be more expensive to sort of reproduce a heavier chain against. So it's then in what we call Nash equilibrium, meaning if you want to mine and you want to maximize your revenue, you will do so in a cooperative way, trying to extend the tip of the chain as fast as possible against this sort of entropy measurement rule. Interesting.
[00:28:02] So there is a smart way. What you're doing is kind of smart and it's a calculated way to come up with what the block is going to be. When I think of entropy, I think of everything leading toward chaos. What you're doing in this seems like the opposite of chaos. You know, so how do we need to prove chaos? Like, what's the role of chaos?
[00:28:28] You know, if you're trying to eliminate it, how's entropy? Well, so it's entropy minima. So what you're showing is that you've removed the maximal amount of entropy from the system. Right. And that's how you're getting order. Right. And that order is expensive. So we're like, we're fine. We're like, we're, we're, we're measuring the amount of, of chaos removed and we're measuring the expense that was taken to remove that chaos.
[00:28:58] Got it. Okay. I missed the minima part. So. Yeah. Right. And it's minima because technically every new block is like adding more chaos, so to speak, because when, when you sort of propose the new block, you have two to the 256, like potential paths that you could take. Like those are the available hashes that you could like make for the next block.
[00:29:21] And it's only when you mine the block that you get a, a reduction of that field. Right. So we remove some of those paths to create order. So that's why it's minima because we're sort of adding when we say we're going to make a new block, but then we're removing when we actually mine the block. Right. If it was minimum, we wouldn't even start mining. Okay. But that's why it's a minimum. So like, as you're making the chain and you're trying to procrastinate cooperatively,
[00:29:51] you're trying to remove as much as possible from the system. And, and that's, it's, it's also interesting. So if you look at like encryption or you look at, you know, trying to encrypt systems, you're trying to maximize entropy so that only like one person like knows the answer to a question, because this is sort of the opposite. It's this cooperative thing that we want everybody to come into agreement to. We're actually doing the exact opposite, which is we're trying to minimize entropy.
[00:30:21] And then everyone can come up with this immutable agreement system. Right. So, yeah, it's, it's very intuitively like nice in, in many ways. Yeah. I agree. I agree. So let's talk about chaos. The market. I want to touch on the market and the government, right? Donald Trump comes out on Friday. He says, Hey, or last week we're going to have a crypto reserve. And what happens?
[00:30:47] The whole market tanks, you know, where, where are we headed now with a strategic reserve? How does that change the money game? How, how, you know, when are we going to start, stop falling? Like when we stop the chaos. So. Yeah, no, that's, that's a great question. Before I answer that one, I do just want to make one aside just relative to the poem.
[00:31:14] So poem, interestingly enough, with this hierarchy of merge by blockchains. Are you familiar with Stephen Wolfram by chance? I'm not. I heard the name, but I'm not familiar with this one. So he's, uh, he's, uh, the, uh, CEO of Wolfram Alpha, which makes Mathematica. So he's also sort of a theoretical physicist. He has this thing called the, uh, Wolfram physics project that started in 2020, uh, where he's
[00:31:43] sort of taking a new approach to trying to make a grand unified theory of physics. Um, the interesting part about this, and, uh, there's about eight hours of podcasts where we discuss this is, uh, uh, Quai's merge bind hierarchy of blockchains with poem, uh, creates a causally invariant multi-way graph, which is bounded by a, uh, computationally irreducible process.
[00:32:13] Uh, in his theory of physics is the exact same thing. So somehow in trying to scale a proof of work blockchain, we have a system which is almost perfectly analogous to his fundamental theory of physics. Um, so when you started to dig into that poem concept a little bit more and you dig into this hierarchy, um, we sort of fundamentally found something that's like very important,
[00:32:39] uh, to say the least, but there's, there's about eight hours of podcasts that sort of, um, talk about this. Um, so just, just wanted to put that in there as an aside. So, so there's, there's a lot of depth that you can sort of go into in this, um, in terms of the strategic reserve, um, you know, I think it's cool that it sort of validates, you know, crypto in some ways, but I also think it invalidates crypto in other ways, right?
[00:33:07] Originally Bitcoin was meant to be the money independent of the state. And because we sort of failed to scale or create, you know, P2P electronic cash, everyone is very excited that the state is now endorsing the system. Um, you know, and obviously I get it from an institutional capital perspective, you know, flowing into Bitcoin and potentially making the Bitcoin price go up. But simultaneously, we're also setting up ourselves for a system in which Bitcoin becomes
[00:33:34] captured by the likes of, you know, BlackRock, Fidelity, Michael Saylor, and potentially the government itself. Right. Um, so, you know, in the same way that the LBMA London Booleans and Metal Association, um, kind of controls the gold market. I fear that the powers that be might figure out how to do the same thing to the Bitcoin market. Um, so. Interesting.
[00:34:03] I, uh, I, I gotta tell you, undergrad, I studied geophysics. It was one of my liberal arts concentrations, but like, I remember that. So I can, I can look at Steven's stuff and see if I can like make sense out of it, but I'll, I'll do that. So, um, yeah. Yeah. So I want to thank you very much, um, for speaking with me today. This has been very enjoyable, um, and educational for me and hope for everybody listening.
[00:34:32] So, um, I have one last question. It's, um, it's the easiest one. It's how can people find out more information about the quiet network about you, about your works? Um, how can they do that? Yeah. So, I mean, you can go to our website, uh, qu.ai, just quiet. Love that domain. Um, we have a section on the docs, um, in those docs, you can learn, uh, how to mine. Um, you can run your own node to mine.
[00:35:00] You can, uh, participate in a pool to mine. Uh, we have about 10 different pools integrated, including F2 pool, hero miners, et cetera. Um, you can also cloud mine. So we have like one click deployments with Ionet or Akash. Uh, so very accessible ways to participate, you know, in the network as a, a node, uh, in a miner. Um, there's also, um, documentation on how to develop and deploy applications, um, or EVM
[00:35:29] compatible. So it's, it's pretty easy to deploy. You just need to kind of use our version of a hard hat. Uh, but most things port over one-to-one. Um, and then if you're interested in sort of the physics, there's also a link to sort of our academic, uh, papers and security proofs, uh, in there as well. If you want to follow me on Twitter, uh, my handle is mechanical K, uh, spelled K-A-L-K at the end. Um, yeah.
[00:35:57] And then we also have a cool YouTube channel that has a bunch of content. Um, some of the Stephen Wolfram content, and then also just, uh, educational content that I've made over the last, uh, year. Talking about sort of all the different, uh, features, uh, that we've added to acquire to not only make a sustainable economic system, um, but also all the technical mechanisms for, you know, how we make it, uh, DDoS, uh, resilient and scalable.
[00:36:21] So, uh, there's, there's probably a couple hundred hours of, of content, uh, to dig into if anyone's interested. Awesome. Thank you very much for your time today. Yep. Appreciate it.