Exploring the Future of AI Agents and Their Applications for Decentralized Finance and Banking, with Bullet Bulat @ ReDeFi

[00:00:04] Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Crypto Hipster Podcast. This is your host, Jamil Hasan, the Crypto Hipster, where I interview founders, entrepreneurs, executives, thought leaders, amazing people all around the world of crypto and blockchain. And today I have another amazing guest. My guest is, yeah, I'm excited about this one. My guest, he has a really interesting first name. His name is Bullet. It's Bullet Kalia. He's a CPO at ReDeFi.

[00:00:35] Bullet, welcome to the show today.

[00:00:37] Oh, thank you. Thanks for hosting this, Jamil. Very nice to be here.

[00:00:41] You're very welcome. I'm happy you're with me today. This is going to be great. So let me ask you for it. Let me kick things off. I'll kick things off with the same questions for everybody. It's what is your background and is it a logical background for what you're doing now?

[00:00:57] Oh, that's a great question. So in terms of my background, I started my career from being a software developer, but then I quickly rose to the deputy CTO role and it was more managerial position.

[00:01:11] I managed a team of developers. And after just a few years, since I started my career, I moved to a product role and the crypto space.

[00:01:20] At the time, Bitcoin was like, I remember it for 120 something dollars. And the whole thing about decentralization and Bitcoin was so fascinating that we actually tried to launch a decentralized exchange based on Bitcoin.

[00:01:37] It was, you know, way before Uniswap or other DEXs. And the thing is, like, we failed very quickly, not very quickly, but we failed massively.

[00:01:48] And that's because nobody knew how to create a decentralized way of exchanging things, right? I mean, of trading.

[00:01:58] And the speed of Bitcoin wasn't quite supportive of frequency trading or actually any trading because, you know, you don't want to execute your trade once in a few minutes.

[00:02:10] You actually want it to go faster. So there were quite many things preventing us from actually achieving decentralization.

[00:02:18] Based on Bitcoin blockchain. After that, I had a few kind of opportunities to engage with Web3 crypto and blockchain.

[00:02:29] I supported many ICO startups as a product expert, helping them to build their products, helping them to do an ICO.

[00:02:41] It was an ICO time and many companies launched during this time. After that, I was headhunted by Deloitte, you know, this big company, consulting company.

[00:02:52] And I worked there for a few years as the head of blockchain responsible for the CIS region.

[00:02:57] We worked with multinational companies in different countries.

[00:03:02] And our goal was to help them to understand how they can utilize blockchain and benefit from it.

[00:03:08] Quite interesting project, mostly for private blockchains.

[00:03:12] We did some tokenization platforms for mining companies.

[00:03:17] We tokenized some, you know, metals and allowed some trading on metals.

[00:03:22] I also tried to promote a token concept for art galleries before the NFT boom, but they didn't get the concept of how you can tokenize the art.

[00:03:35] And then, you know, there are all the whole, the whole issue with the tokenizing the real world asset like art.

[00:03:43] How would you do that? It's quite difficult.

[00:03:45] We can, we can dig down into that.

[00:03:49] So they didn't buy this concept.

[00:03:51] And then there was a pandemic.

[00:03:54] And during the COVID, I did an MBA.

[00:03:57] And then after MBA, I engaged with one startup.

[00:04:02] They were doing some AI machine learning stuff.

[00:04:06] It was quite interesting experience.

[00:04:08] Definitely not crypto related, but it was quite interesting in terms of we tried to analyze user behavior, such as sleep, heart rate activities, and then predict next day productivity of users brain.

[00:04:21] And I studied quite a lot of things in the productivity area, how health and how sleep improves your performance the next day.

[00:04:31] You know, all the influencing factors, your heart rate activities, how you're exercising improves your productivity at work, etc.

[00:04:39] So it was very interesting experience.

[00:04:42] But then I moved back to crypto.

[00:04:44] I worked for a company called BBB.

[00:04:47] BBB, it's a London-based company with a fintech license.

[00:04:53] It's a fintech with a license from the FCA.

[00:04:56] It's e-money license and also a crypto license.

[00:04:59] I believe it's one of the 13 or 15 companies in the UK with a license for crypto.

[00:05:06] So it was quite interesting to work with regulators, with compliance teams on the product that has, you know, crypto and fiat in the product and also how you navigate all the challenges and, you know, this legal stuff.

[00:05:25] So that's briefly about me.

[00:05:29] You said two words that people are going to say don't mesh.

[00:05:33] You said product and you said ICOs.

[00:05:39] ICOs were known for not having a viable product, just an idea.

[00:05:44] Right?

[00:05:45] So how do you feel to navigate that being a product manager or developer in a time where the only thing we have is whitening?

[00:05:54] Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:05:57] So, yeah, during the ICO, there were many companies that had just an idea and, you know, website.

[00:06:04] And frankly, they just wanted to raise funds and then maybe do something.

[00:06:08] But there were other companies that saw this as an opportunity to get, you know, to get community funding and then actually did the product.

[00:06:19] So what we did, we helped them to ideate first.

[00:06:23] And then we had, I created a department of 45 people, software developers, and we helped them to actually execute this product.

[00:06:30] So, like, we were aiming for people not that wanted just to get some easy money, easy bucks, you know, but that had vision to actually use this as a crowdfunding option and to build actual products.

[00:06:48] Awesome. Awesome.

[00:06:49] Yeah.

[00:06:50] That was probably the most fun time for me in this industry.

[00:06:55] The other fun time was watching all these artists make money for the first time in their lives during the NFT boom.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:03] NFT was crazy stuff.

[00:07:06] Yep.

[00:07:07] And now, you know, you have DeFi.

[00:07:11] Yeah, well, ReDeFi, right?

[00:07:13] The first DeFi summer was four years ago.

[00:07:17] I'm waiting for the next one.

[00:07:18] But I want to find out what ReDeFi is all about, including your mission and vision.

[00:07:25] So, ReDeFi is a company that was launched about one and a half or two years ago.

[00:07:32] So, from the white paper that I wrote about the on-chain money, we call it on-chain money.

[00:07:38] It's a concept of a stable coin.

[00:07:40] Next version of a stable coin.

[00:07:43] Call it, I don't know, stable coin 2.0.

[00:07:46] So, the concept is a banking, a fintech, a banking application can actually issue a stable coin that has segregated bank accounts for every wallet that holds this stable coin.

[00:08:01] And users of this wallet can send money from self-custody wallet to any bank in the world using Swift.

[00:08:09] And then receive money to their self-custody wallet from any bank, even though this bank is not connected to blockchain.

[00:08:19] So, essentially, there is some mirroring happening on the back end.

[00:08:23] So, you send tokens from self-custody wallet, but the issuing bank actually sends fiat money to the bank account that you're targeted.

[00:08:34] And for the user, it looks like they actually sent tokens on-chain or that kind of level of abstraction.

[00:08:47] But behind the sense, there is, you know, lots of things going on.

[00:08:52] And then, also, these users can have self-custody wallets with bank requisites as you have, you know, on Revolut or any other banking application.

[00:09:03] But it's in self-custody wallet.

[00:09:05] And then you can provide these details to your friend or to your granny or your mom.

[00:09:09] And then they can send from their bank account, from their Revolut to these bank account details.

[00:09:17] But you receive it as a token, as this on-chain money token, as a stable coin.

[00:09:22] So, for you, it's completely, let's call it, like, you know, easy or completely abstracted way to receive money from fiat bank account to your self-custody wallet.

[00:09:37] And then you can use these tokens, obviously, to purchase some Bitcoin or Ethereum.

[00:09:42] And then you can send it back to Web2 banking application.

[00:09:48] So, that's, like, you know, if you talk briefly about it, that's how I would explain it.

[00:09:58] Interesting.

[00:09:59] Where are you located?

[00:10:03] I'm located in the UK, England.

[00:10:05] In the UK.

[00:10:06] Okay, great.

[00:10:07] All right.

[00:10:07] So, we're talking about Swift.

[00:10:09] You mentioned Swift.

[00:10:10] Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:11] But essentially, it can be any system, Web2.

[00:10:15] Okay.

[00:10:16] Well, let's say you mentioned Swift.

[00:10:19] There's a debate out there right now with the past.

[00:10:23] I mean, the market's been down a couple of days now.

[00:10:25] But it's mostly up since November 5th.

[00:10:29] Who's going to win?

[00:10:30] You know, you mentioned stable coin.

[00:10:34] You know, there are people who say that XRP is going to completely replace Swift.

[00:10:40] And there's people who are saying that Chainlink is going to help Swift get stronger.

[00:10:45] Right?

[00:10:46] So, those two seem to me to be contrasting perspectives regarding Swift.

[00:10:50] And now you are helping and support Swift with a stable coin.

[00:10:53] What's the best path forward for Swift to stay relevant or succeed in this as crypto gains adoption and expansion?

[00:11:04] No, that's a good, very good question and interesting.

[00:11:07] And by the way, we are not supporting Swift.

[00:11:10] Like, I don't want to support Swift, right?

[00:11:12] My aim was to create a breach of the user to help the user.

[00:11:18] You know, because I'm product, I always think about the user benefit and value.

[00:11:23] So, what I wanted to create is reduce the number of steps a user needs to perform in order to enter the crypto space or send money from the crypto space.

[00:11:33] Because now what you need to do is you need to find an exchange or, you know, self-custody audit.

[00:11:38] You need to perform on a KYC.

[00:11:40] Then you can use some off-rump, on-rump solution, again, another KYC in order just to get funds on your self-custody or on your exchange.

[00:11:49] And not necessarily that you can actually, you know, get those funds.

[00:11:55] So, there are lots of steps and I wanted to reduce those steps.

[00:11:59] So, instead of having multiple exchanges or self-custody wallets, you can have just the same Swift or, you know, IBAN.

[00:12:08] And other users will send money to your IBAN, but you will receive them as token.

[00:12:13] That's how I see this, right?

[00:12:17] But in terms of who would win, Swift or XRP, yeah, that's a great topic.

[00:12:27] I think the one who has the more power would win.

[00:12:33] So, if, you know, people in power would start choosing XRP, it will win quite quickly.

[00:12:39] But if they keep supporting and keep pushing for the Swift, I believe there is very, you know, slim chances that any system, XRP or anything else, would win.

[00:12:53] Because, like, we saw this with COVID, right?

[00:12:57] If someone wants us to be somewhere or, you know, to push us to some limits, they would do that no matter what.

[00:13:04] And we will be closed in a matter of hours.

[00:13:10] So, we were closed in.

[00:13:13] Yeah.

[00:13:14] I started this podcast back in March 2021.

[00:13:18] You know, when COVID started, actually, what's called it?

[00:13:23] Feedspot just named me number 57 as far as 100 top podcasts, which was for any list.

[00:13:29] The first time I ever made any list, which is pretty cool.

[00:13:32] Yeah.

[00:13:33] Cool.

[00:13:33] But during COVID, you know, regulations changed.

[00:13:36] You know, regulators got more involved.

[00:13:38] People caught up, I think.

[00:13:39] I know you're partnering with regulators, right?

[00:13:42] Or maybe you were thinking about partnering with regulators.

[00:13:44] How do we do that to help improve the crypto industry?

[00:13:50] Yeah.

[00:13:51] Yeah.

[00:13:51] I see that there is, I think, a split going on, right?

[00:13:56] There will be kind of regulated part of crypto that is, you know, follow all the regulations, you know, very strict.

[00:14:04] And like we see many startups and many, you know, web three projects.

[00:14:08] They are kind of abandoning this idea of decentralization and freedom.

[00:14:13] And they are following what our government says.

[00:14:16] And another part is, another portion of crypto is fully decentralized.

[00:14:21] And, you know, you cannot control it even if you try.

[00:14:26] So, I think this split is going on and it will happen eventually.

[00:14:32] And I'm not sure what would happen with this DeFi segment that is not following regulation.

[00:14:38] Because on one side, it's quite hard to close it because, you know, it's decentralized.

[00:14:44] So, how would you close something that is supported by millions and is decentralized?

[00:14:49] There is no single entity or person behind it, right?

[00:14:53] On the other side, like, you would like to close it because it's a threat to yourself like Bitcoin.

[00:15:01] Whether they will be able to close it or not, we will see.

[00:15:04] But another interesting thing that is happening now in the crypto space is, you know, the rise of AI agents.

[00:15:13] Have you seen them?

[00:15:15] What do you think about them?

[00:15:16] It would be good probably to discuss this subject as well.

[00:15:19] Because it's very close to crypto and it allows many interesting things when we discuss AI agents and crypto.

[00:15:27] I just had an interview last week on AI agents.

[00:15:31] I need one or two for myself.

[00:15:35] You know, I think it's a pretty good idea for people, you know, to be able to get support when they're working because everybody's busy.

[00:15:41] Yeah.

[00:15:43] Yeah.

[00:15:44] The good thing about AI agents, because they are autonomous, right, and they can actually get access to your wallet.

[00:15:51] And they can do a lot of stuff with your wallet, including sending tokens, exchanging tokens, investing tokens on your behalf.

[00:16:01] So, for example, a banking application, right, like any Web2 banking app or the one that is following regulators, right?

[00:16:09] They will not be able to offer their users AI agents simply because currently there is no regulation allowing AI agent to be KYC or to get access to your banking account.

[00:16:25] But it can be linked to your self-custody wallet.

[00:16:28] And it can act on behalf of you.

[00:16:31] So, I see the space between crypto and AI agent is merging quite fast.

[00:16:37] And it will be very, very exciting to see where it goes.

[00:16:43] I think from a trader perspective, you know, having an agent that has access to all the data and can pinpoint and find areas of arbitrage quickly, you know, would be a benefit.

[00:16:57] Yeah.

[00:16:57] Yeah.

[00:16:59] And this, we all know about this infinite backrooms, right?

[00:17:04] And the first terminal of truth, which is like a millionaire.

[00:17:10] AI that is millionaire.

[00:17:12] That's crazy.

[00:17:15] Did better than me.

[00:17:20] Benefits.

[00:17:21] Benefits and drawbacks to having banking on chain.

[00:17:24] I mean, what's the benefits and drawbacks to having, yeah, on-chain banking?

[00:17:32] On-chain banking.

[00:17:33] So, you mean like everything is on-chain?

[00:17:36] Like Revolut, but...

[00:17:38] Yeah.

[00:17:39] It's literally on-chain.

[00:17:40] Okay.

[00:17:41] So, there are interesting benefits like using smart contracts and, again, these AI automations, right?

[00:17:46] And potentially outsourcing the hard work of investments into AI agents or self-cast, sorry, smart contracts.

[00:17:58] But from my product side and from thinking like if I was about to use fully transparent banking application on blockchain,

[00:18:11] like all my money would be public.

[00:18:15] Like, you know, I spend money on something, on coffee.

[00:18:19] But anyone can go and see that I'm spending money.

[00:18:24] Even, you know, my ex-wife can get the knowledge of how much money I have on my accounts.

[00:18:32] And then all my enemies or, you know, all my friends like, hey, you owe me 100.

[00:18:40] But I don't have what you do have.

[00:18:42] So, I'm not sure from the user side, from me personally, I don't see how I would use fully transparent public on-chain banking application.

[00:18:55] Like, I wouldn't probably.

[00:18:57] Despite I love self-custody, despite I love decentralization and publicity and public networks.

[00:19:05] Like, for my banking app, probably I wouldn't go for it.

[00:19:09] I'm not that, you know, that's into crypto.

[00:19:16] You said two words.

[00:19:19] Actually, I'm going to ask my next question.

[00:19:21] Then I'm going to come back to two words that you said.

[00:19:23] Okay.

[00:19:24] I probably shouldn't ask you about it, but I'm going to because I think it ties in.

[00:19:28] So, but if there's...

[00:19:31] I want to talk about requirements for regulated banking industries first, right?

[00:19:36] These banking industries, what do they search for when agreeing to build the on-chain banking?

[00:19:45] What are some of the elements that they're looking to capture or they're looking for to help them and everybody else?

[00:19:52] Yeah, I think they're driven by...

[00:19:55] First of all, like, again, I'm product, right?

[00:19:58] So, my opinion is a bit biased towards product.

[00:20:02] I think they're looking to serve more users.

[00:20:06] Maybe expand their user base and to provide more products to this expanded user base.

[00:20:12] And so, they think like, okay, now we are covering this segment of users, right?

[00:20:18] But crypto users are also interested in an interesting audience for us.

[00:20:23] So, how would we attract them?

[00:20:26] Probably we need to launch yield products or staking products or go on-chain, you know, offer self-custody audits.

[00:20:33] So, that's the way I think they go into that.

[00:20:41] Also, there is some, of course, some area of commercial viability and commercial thinking.

[00:20:49] Like, they obviously want to increase their revenues and crypto in general is a good idea.

[00:20:58] Like, we all know that Revolut made a lot of money and is still making a lot of money on revenue conversions only.

[00:21:05] It's not like a big, it's not big on crypto.

[00:21:11] It doesn't have many DeFi features or it's just kind of trading, spot trading option.

[00:21:16] But they still manage to make a lot of money and other companies like Binance as well.

[00:21:24] Like, everyone can Google what are the revenues of the biggest players in the crypto space.

[00:21:30] So, yeah.

[00:21:33] Now we're going to get into that word you said.

[00:21:37] Ex-wife.

[00:21:40] I almost had one of those.

[00:21:44] She didn't become my ex-wife, but in 2017 and 18, I was an ICO advisor.

[00:21:49] So, I would be up all day and all night pretty much, get two hours sleep here and there.

[00:21:56] The industry has really evolved, right?

[00:21:59] So, we don't have to be up at all nights, all different times, right?

[00:22:02] And you want to tie in the IA agents here.

[00:22:04] You know, what's the benefit of having this global system that runs 24 hours a day where you and I,

[00:22:13] you being a product guy, me who was an advisor, don't have to be up, you know, in the middle of the night, the break of dawn constantly.

[00:22:19] We have support in this ecosystem now.

[00:22:25] Cool.

[00:22:25] But could you please clarify the question?

[00:22:27] Because I haven't.

[00:22:28] What are the benefits for product developers, product managers, advisors in having, you know, this 24-7 system that we don't have to be present for all 24 hours?

[00:22:41] Oh, yeah.

[00:22:43] Yeah.

[00:22:43] Yeah, of course.

[00:22:44] So, remittance.

[00:22:47] Remittance is an example or trading investment like stuff.

[00:22:53] So, there are lots of benefits, of course, from user point of view, from banking point of view, infrastructure point of view.

[00:23:01] Of course, having 24-7 settlement almost immediate is a huge benefit.

[00:23:06] And, like, there are many intermediaries between – so, for example, if you use a real-world application, right, or any other banking application that you want to send funds to someone in another country,

[00:23:19] there is a whole bunch of middlemen that would take a share of what you're sending.

[00:23:27] And they would process, actually, lots of things behind the sense.

[00:23:32] So, you don't even know how many participants there are.

[00:23:36] But if you have a decentralized system that runs 24-7 and it's a single system, like there are no middlemen and all banks are connected to it.

[00:23:46] So, for example, it's AxRP or any other, actually, system.

[00:23:52] That would cut the cost of sending money abroad, like, significantly down to zero almost.

[00:23:58] Or, you know, the cost of transaction on this particular system.

[00:24:03] So, AxRP, for example.

[00:24:05] But also, it will help to get this money immediately.

[00:24:09] Like, immediate settlement is another big thing.

[00:24:11] So, there will be no behind-the-scenes transactions between banks and their partners and other institutional players that touch your money.

[00:24:25] So, essentially, you send your money from your bank account and someone else in another country receive them, like, in seconds for almost zero fee.

[00:24:35] That's a significant progress, I think.

[00:24:37] And it's significant for end users.

[00:24:40] But the thing, again, would these, you know, middlemen that currently have lots of profitability, would they like the idea of being cut?

[00:24:51] And how much power they actually have?

[00:24:53] That's true.

[00:25:23] You know, your product manager, right?

[00:25:24] Your product chief product officer.

[00:25:27] So, what types of products are you currently building?

[00:25:30] And how do you envision being able to build, given your vision and mission?

[00:25:35] Yeah, cool.

[00:25:37] So, in terms of what kind of products I built, again, different.

[00:25:43] Yes, I have such diverse experience, right?

[00:25:46] I worked with ICO, Web3, crypto companies.

[00:25:50] And there were, like, those and so on.

[00:25:52] Then I worked in the corporate world, building private blockchain solutions for multinational companies.

[00:25:59] But, like, my recent years, I spent in a regulated space, in the fintech.

[00:26:05] So, I also have exposure to this.

[00:26:08] In terms of, like, what I'm building or what I want to talk about, right?

[00:26:14] Is about Web3 projects in general, like DeFi market.

[00:26:19] And maybe we can also touch about funding and KOLs, KOL marketing for new projects.

[00:26:26] Because it's quite an interesting area for me.

[00:26:28] And, again, it aligns quite well with the AI agents.

[00:26:31] Like, the future of Web3 KOLs and AI agents is very interesting to me to discuss.

[00:26:38] Because now, even now, you can easily launch a Twitter account connected to AI.

[00:26:44] And it will be AI agent behind the scenes, promoting your account and, you know, engaging with your audience, growing this audience.

[00:26:53] And we saw an example when an AI agent KOL became, first of all, they became KOL.

[00:27:00] Or it became, how should I kind of address them?

[00:27:04] They or he or she or it.

[00:27:06] So, it became a KOL, right?

[00:27:09] Then it got 50K funds in BTC.

[00:27:15] So, it actually raised money.

[00:27:18] Then someone created the token.

[00:27:20] And, you know, this AI agent became a millionaire.

[00:27:24] So, it's quite, you know, crazy to think about it.

[00:27:29] So, the rise of KOLs and AI-driven influencers, I think it started already.

[00:27:37] But what we will see in one year, I think it will be even more crazier.

[00:27:42] Like, you know, millions of AI-driven influencers, KOLs, creators will be on TikTok, on everywhere.

[00:27:53] And then there will be very interesting, how would you follow them?

[00:28:01] Or how would you trust them?

[00:28:02] Or would you rather trust this AI-driven KOL?

[00:28:07] Or would you trust actually human KOL?

[00:28:10] Someone who is behind the scenes?

[00:28:13] Or, you know, how would you define that someone that is pretending to be human?

[00:28:18] Is it like a real human?

[00:28:20] Or is it very sophisticated AI agent that is trying to mimic a human?

[00:28:25] So, the whole thing about being someone on social is being, I think, shaped and redefined.

[00:28:37] So, that goes back to my, that goes back really ties, goes back to my question about, you know, time.

[00:28:46] You know, being able to be present for our lives.

[00:28:48] So, if we have this AI agent and we have an AI-KOL, you know, wouldn't we have more time to focus on other things that we want to do?

[00:28:58] And how will that, you know, help the influencer who's been struggling to get an audience?

[00:29:07] You know, what's the, yeah, what's the trust trade-off there?

[00:29:13] Yeah, that's like, I'm thinking about it, right?

[00:29:17] And one scenario is, as you said, like, we will have more time to do our stuff.

[00:29:23] And probably these AI agents will go and earn money for us, right?

[00:29:27] But then, if everyone can launch hundreds of AI agents and they will task them to make money, who will be making money?

[00:29:37] Like, you know, there is like 7 billion people.

[00:29:41] Okay, we can agree that not all 7 billion will create AI agents, right?

[00:29:46] But let's say 1 million created 10 million AI agents.

[00:29:50] And now X or any other social platform has 10x more users, which are actually AI agents.

[00:30:01] And they're trying to make money using this social platform, like X.

[00:30:06] How, like, it will be, for me, it's quite difficult to predict what will happen, right?

[00:30:13] Because now you have one account, probably you can have two, and you have limited time.

[00:30:19] So users are choosing between you and someone else.

[00:30:26] But if there are 10 of you, and everyone can post, like, every 10 minutes, and everyone of you can interact with me,

[00:30:35] like, what is the monetization model?

[00:30:38] And how will I choose between 10 of you or 7 million of AI agents?

[00:30:44] And yeah, as you said, what is the trust between that, right?

[00:30:48] Because what information, what data did you use to train your AI agent?

[00:30:54] And what is the actual goals behind this agent?

[00:30:59] Is it, like, to drag my money?

[00:31:01] Is it to, you know, to scam me?

[00:31:04] Or is it to genuinely provide information?

[00:31:06] Or, you know, so there are so many new things coming to the space.

[00:31:12] And so many decisions about trust, about everything.

[00:31:19] I believe it's quite an interesting time that we are facing now.

[00:31:22] And it's only growing.

[00:31:25] Yeah.

[00:31:26] I guess it's the same thing as meme points.

[00:31:28] You got to get in there first.

[00:31:30] The people who are in there first make the money, and everybody else doesn't.

[00:31:34] Yeah.

[00:31:35] Yeah.

[00:31:36] So the creators that started to use AI agents, they probably will benefit the most.

[00:31:41] I mean, the first creators.

[00:31:42] Like yourself, for example.

[00:31:44] Like, you know, even creating podcasts.

[00:31:47] Like someone, some AI agent can go and find your guests.

[00:31:51] Another one will create images of yourself.

[00:31:54] So you are not even participating in the meeting.

[00:31:57] But then my AI agents will come to your space and will talk instead of me.

[00:32:02] So, you know.

[00:32:04] Yeah.

[00:32:06] I'm part of it at a human level.

[00:32:08] Yeah.

[00:32:10] Yeah.

[00:32:10] Other AI agents will be watching this recording, you know, and trying to provide some information

[00:32:16] based on it.

[00:32:17] So it's just crazy how many things will change in the coming maybe one, three, five years.

[00:32:24] Yeah.

[00:32:25] Hopefully I'll be retired by then.

[00:32:27] We'll see.

[00:32:30] So.

[00:32:31] Yeah.

[00:32:32] Cool.

[00:32:32] So, you know, we did start off talking about DeFi.

[00:32:37] And, you know, I looked at the recent pullback of some of the DeFi tokens have held in there

[00:32:41] pretty strong.

[00:32:43] Is 2025, in your thoughts, is 2025 going to be the year of DeFi?

[00:32:48] Or do we have to continue to wait?

[00:32:50] What do you think?

[00:32:52] Yeah.

[00:32:53] In terms of year of DeFi, in terms of what?

[00:32:56] In terms of kind of token growth or?

[00:32:58] Token growth, price appreciation, use cases.

[00:33:04] Yeah.

[00:33:06] Yeah.

[00:33:06] I think it's always growing, right?

[00:33:09] Because I witnessed, I think, two big expansions and then drops of BTC and the market in general.

[00:33:19] So kind of short term, you can drop.

[00:33:22] But long term, if you think about many years, it always goes up.

[00:33:28] There are always more cases.

[00:33:30] I mean, use cases.

[00:33:32] There are more projects.

[00:33:33] There are more interesting stuff being developed.

[00:33:38] And the industry in general is expanding.

[00:33:41] And I believe that, you know, I believe that we are still early in the crypto space.

[00:33:49] Like, I said it like five years ago.

[00:33:52] I said it like, you know, many times.

[00:33:55] But even now with Bitcoin, it's a bit 100k.

[00:34:01] And then I think it's very early.

[00:34:05] And my next target for Bitcoin in particular is 500.

[00:34:09] So I believe it will go in further.

[00:34:13] So no stop here.

[00:34:15] Like crypto will be expanding.

[00:34:17] DeFi will be expanding.

[00:34:18] Everything will be expanding.

[00:34:19] And again, with AI agents, it's a perfect match.

[00:34:23] And I believe there will be even more interesting cases.

[00:34:26] And there will be even more people entering the space.

[00:34:29] Because like at the end of the day, think about it.

[00:34:32] There are, I don't know, like 25k blockchain developers, right?

[00:34:38] Like DeFi, blockchain, crypto.

[00:34:41] But if we talk about AI, it's like hundreds of thousands, if not millions of developers.

[00:34:48] And now crypto, I think, one of the best use cases for AI.

[00:34:52] Because AI can interact with wallets.

[00:34:55] And it can interact with the payment system of DeFi.

[00:34:58] So all these new AI developers will start understanding crypto more.

[00:35:04] And they will start developing more products for crypto and AI.

[00:35:08] It will drag new people into the space that are interested in AI or crypto.

[00:35:13] And they start using crypto.

[00:35:17] So it's in a loop of growth.

[00:35:22] Awesome.

[00:35:23] Awesome.

[00:35:23] I look forward to it.

[00:35:24] I look forward to seeing that.

[00:35:25] I'm excited about this coming year and the coming innovations over the next few.

[00:35:31] So I want to thank you very much for your time today.

[00:35:35] I enjoyed speaking with you.

[00:35:36] And I have one last question.

[00:35:37] And it's real simple.

[00:35:39] How can people find more information about you, about Redefi?

[00:35:42] How can they do that?

[00:35:44] So I believe my link profile will be in the comments somewhere, right?

[00:35:50] It's dbulletk.

[00:35:52] So you can follow me on X.

[00:35:54] And that would be probably the best way to stay updated with my thoughts.

[00:35:59] And yeah, follow me and I will follow back so we can engage.

[00:36:04] And, you know, I love meeting new people.

[00:36:06] I love talking about DeFi, about Web3, about AI.

[00:36:11] So, you know, let's get connected.

[00:36:14] Awesome.

[00:36:14] Thank you very much for your time today.

[00:36:16] Thank you.

[00:36:17] Thank you, Jamin.

[00:36:17] See you.

[00:36:18] See you.