Founder's Journey with Andrey Didovskiy

[00:00:04] This is the Crypto Hipster Podcast. This is not a traditional interview show. These are perspective-driven conversations with founders, builders, and independent creators shaping what comes next.

[00:00:26] We go beyond headlines, beyond hype, and beyond price to explore ownership, freedom, and opportunity in the digital economy where builders talk freedom, not price.

[00:00:47] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Crypto Hipster, where we make sense of the digital economy through the people who are building it. Today's guest is Andrey Didovskiy. Didovskiy. Didovskiy, founder and CEO of Seasons, a blockchain entrepreneur.

[00:01:12] He's focused on decentralized finance, tokenization, and designing systems that align with long-term incentives. Today, we're going to go beyond products and price and talk about the founder's journey, what it's like to explore and be in his shoes. I'm looking forward to this conversation. So, Andrey, welcome to Crypto Hipster. Jamil, thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. I love the introduction. Andrey Didovskiy, ready to answer questions.

[00:01:41] Awesome, awesome. So let's start out first, and I want to find out, you know, about your background before crypto. Find out my background before crypto. Honestly, these are sometimes the most difficult questions. I mean, like a quick, I guess, snapshot is born in Ukraine, moved to the States whenever I was two years old, because the universe blessed me with an incredible mother that gave me all this opportunity to be here.

[00:02:08] Growing up was, of course, a chess player, excellent, top of my class, middle school, Kristen McAuliffe in New York, considered one of the best schools over here. Moving into high school, of course, you know, hormones started taking over, growing, independence started moving up. And, of course, during those formative years, towards the end of them, crypto came across my maps, my radars.

[00:02:34] So, like most other people got into it by accident. Even when I got into it the first time, didn't understand I was in anything. I never invested before in this. It was just a process. I took the space professionally. Like, you said before crypto. I worked a multitude of jobs, physical therapy assistants, waiters, a bunch of stuff growing up, like, through the times. And then we get to crypto.

[00:03:02] So, I'll pause there, because this is a whole different beast. This is a whole new life opens up after this. I'm going to go there next, but I want to stay on one topic. Actually, I want to bring that in as your gateway into crypto, right? You play chess. How is your experience playing chess very much like your experience with crypto? Oh, okay. Well, first and foremost was my dad. My dad was one of the chess masters or grandmasters in Ukraine.

[00:03:30] So, I had a really strong foundation to build off of. I mean, growing up playing in New York, I was one of the top players over here. I'm not sure what the classifications are for juniors, but one of the top of my – this was, like, earliest elementary school days. Elementary school days.

[00:03:44] So, I mean, I still play today, but how this overlaps to crypto, I mean, very few people – very few people have – I think you may be the second or third person that's ever even asked how you see the pattern overlay. Honestly, what at least was coming to mind now, it's all a mind game about yourself. You know, when you look at the board and you're trying to make your next decision, the way you make your decision is based on, of course, multiple moves ahead.

[00:04:14] But based on – your move is, like, basing what the next person will do. So, I'm not moving my knight because I think you're going to attack it. I'm moving my knight because, you know, you're preparing something – you're cooking something. You're preparing something greater underneath the hood. And the only time you make mistakes – and this is obviously now infinitely obvious with these AI computer players – is that as soon as you make that first mistake, it's over. The other person has the lead. So – and now we're here, too.

[00:04:42] Just 1x too much leverage. You know, being early – the saying, being early sometimes is as bad as being – as, like, what's it called? Being too early is as bad as being wrong. So, sometimes these people come in – I mean, you set up your pieces too early, you attack too early, and you get liquidated. So, the same thing happens. So, what attracted you then to – at first to blockchain and crypto? And what fascinated you enough to dedicate the years of your life that you have to it?

[00:05:13] Well, I mean, growing up, I was a giga nerd. I loved Warcraft. I loved RuneScape, all of these – MapleStory, all of these games, all of these things. And I was an excellent student. And whenever that changed in the high school days, even that rebellious, what I would still do, as strange as it seems, I would – after we would hang out and do our things with our friends, I would go home or even – actually, even as we hang out. And I used to read the Wall Street Journal.

[00:05:42] I used to just take it out, and maybe it was a sense of me trying to make up for lost time or feel more important than the people I was around. I've already tried to evaluate this many times, but that's of secondary use. So, what attracted me to blockchain was the attempt at freedom.

[00:06:07] I had no real shot to get back into the – or not even a shot, a real desire to get back into the game of going back to college, climbing this corporate ladder, doing all these things. And initially, I was more in like a scholarly kind of state of mind. And then like during that formative high school transformation, it became more about the real world, the tangible, not the theoretic, funny enough. And crypto was the only place where I saw that Wild West feeling.

[00:06:35] I heard and like all that talk back in the day to me about this is like the next thing as like the internet, it didn't make sense. I didn't understand it back then. I was just strictly looking at it like, why would I invest it? Like, why would I invest in this? Why would I get involved? How would I do this? And being in Ukraine, somebody tells me, you can just move money immediately to your grandmother or anything using Bitcoin. Of course, there's a huge lapse. Grandmother has to have an ATM to withdraw the money from the Bitcoin and other things.

[00:07:03] But it was that freedom focused, wide space and opportunity. It was a canvas to draw on and their background experience didn't matter. It actually gave a whole new opportunity to everyone. So that's what kind of got me to build it.

[00:07:17] But now actually talking about it, when I remember what really hooked me was that Andreas Antonopoulos listening to these, you know, anti-government rhetoric that all used to, it used to drive me like it's, it was like an anti-authority thing. It really captured my imagination, especially somebody like transforming as you're like going through the high school. It's like anti-authority, like freedom.

[00:07:44] So it was just all focused on freedom and opportunity. Awesome. Yeah. I read the Wall Street Journal in grad school in 1998, 99 for a class. And I always read that just at the bottom left-hand corner. And then my final exam comes and he's like, you have to actually have read three months back to front of the Wall Street Journal. I did it in one week. And I tell you, I haven't been the same since.

[00:08:15] So, yeah. Yeah. So, so I want to talk about, I want to talk about Seasons. You know, where did your original idea for Seasons come from? Well, the original idea came from, I mean, the same problem I'm pretty sure a lot of people had or and still persist to have is crypto's biggest problem is that all participants are price dependent. And things in DeFi yield remove that, at least to some degree.

[00:08:43] Of course, there's other policies, but ultimately it's just about some kind of some more kind of more stability. Plus, of course, even back in the day, I believe my first post about how tokenization was actually going to take over was something in like, I don't want to be mistaking, but I want to say maybe 19, something like around 2019, I believe. And I'm saying every process, every system, like the system doesn't have to be tokenized, but a token will be in every system. And of course, you see this with AI. Everything's tokenized.

[00:09:13] So it's all about this token count. So that mixture of tokenization and stability, of course, is what kind of where I guess the fundamental first principle of where Seasons was actually born from. Seasons of Seasons is like a, I'm not sure if we even got to introduce it, but it's a yield generating protocol. And we colloquially refer to it as yield 3.0 due to the design, the generation of yield.

[00:09:38] As our predecessors haven't done this, we took predecessor technologies, fine-tuned them a little bit, use some of the most, what seems, again, retrospectively, obvious solutions, buyback mechanisms, embedded reflexivity in different components of the yield. So in any case, Seasons generates yield. And our last yield print was actually, not to be mistaking, I believe something to the tune of 13%.

[00:10:09] So we're very, very competitive in how we pay yield. And that's where it was born from. Honestly, it was like, I mean, it sounds very vanilla, but it was just out of a personal need, honestly. I was just like, is there anything else that I can use? And other yield solutions are all rooted in stable coins. And I'm just like, yeah, but that doesn't excite me given the volatility. Even if you're harvesting your 5%, 7% year-on-year, where is that reflexive upside? How do you capture that?

[00:10:36] And that's what Seasons answered, like that embedded reflexivity is like anytime there is big movements in the market or downside, it captures it. So it came out of personal need. Long answer, it came out of a personal need for stability in crypto. Got it. So when you started, there were other platforms out there. So what you're trying to fix right now doesn't exist in other DeFi protocols like Aave.

[00:11:05] Like they weren't solving what you're solving. Great question. Aave, not at all. Aave is just basically a money market. They just do lending and you harvest the yield. We have a different yield. They basically use one engine effectively to drive where they source yield from. And Seasons sources its yield from three different sources. Quick overlap. First is TTT, SSYM, and YAV. So these three are separate places where yield is sourced from.

[00:11:36] TTT is active today. It's a transfer. So any kind of transactional activity takes place, consumes 10%. This is the same mechanism that was previous in 2018. We're on a transfer fee for any kind of token interaction. That fee goes into the acquisition of yield. Bitcoin, right now we're paying in Bitcoin, gold, and JLUDC. And that yield is then distributed twice per week. That's that. I'm isolating it. Of course, these three engines are combined and how they work.

[00:12:04] So while the funds that have been flowing through the TTT, the SSYM. The SSYM is just a stable coin address. The stable coin address generates a couple of percentage points while the money is in transit to being distributed. And the third component is YAV or yield asset vaults.

[00:12:31] And the yield asset vaults just will be deployed to Camino soon. And the vaults generate a fee. And that fee is just rather than being collected by us, is redirected back into the actual mechanism where 30% of the management fee buys back the SEAS token. 30% boosts the current outgoing yield. And 30% remains as protocol-owned liquidity in the vault itself. And the same applies to the SSYM where there's protocol-owned liquidity being generated by these two components.

[00:13:01] So then even if all trading were to stop, these two are still creating some kind of activity to drive yield going out. So Aave has a radically different model. We can use Aave somewhere in our stack as these funds are being flown through. So a better way to articulate seasons is just a little bit abstract for the non-crypto person. It's a liquidity system. The liquidity system can be used for yield. You can isolate the mechanism itself.

[00:13:30] So it's definitely different. The closest I'd say, and that's only because of its generation, is Pendle. So Pendle actually innovated. They created a new paradigm shift in yield by separating the wrapped stake yield and the wrapped stake asset itself, allowing people to speculate on where the yield will move. So if each wrapped stake yield is moving 4% to 6%, the rate of the yield, people can speculate on that. That's an innovation in the general yield game. Same thing comes with us, and we'll touch on it in a little bit.

[00:13:59] So I'm already going on for a while. This is designed in a specific, constant, reflexive pattern to suit an agentic internet. And we'll talk about that in a second because that's another can of worms to go through. Yeah, I'd rather go through the fact that you've built something very complex, or at least sounds to me like it's very complex. So was there a moment that you wanted to quit?

[00:14:28] I wouldn't say through the building process. Yeah, it feels really, really uncomfortable when you realize minor adjustments that even, for example, one of the things we're working on since day one is capital efficiency of the system. And we've picked it up from 96% to right now about 97.9, roughly speaking. It's, of course, a fluctuation distribution to distribution. That's approaching zero. And, of course, the objective is to make the mechanism itself net negative. Then the mechanism is paying for itself.

[00:14:56] Of course, we get there, but this is a matter of scale. So to quip on the complexity, we are working to make it more comprehensive because all this sounds complex underneath the hood, but ultimately in the front end for the actual user, consumer, whoever needs it, they just press. You have idle assets with seasons. You have idle assets. Put them to work with seasons. Something like this. Got it.

[00:15:20] So I want to talk about, you know, I'm sure that the more complex that founders, you know, that you got involved, you found there might have been some areas where you made a mistake, right? So what has been your biggest mistake that you've made as a founder while you've been building your platform and, you know, your company where everybody, you know, questioned that and told you you were wrong and they turned out to be right?

[00:15:48] What was that time and what did you learn? The biggest mistake I made. Okay. Honestly, the biggest mistake I made was not doing my due diligence around the hiring processes and understanding how that actual part of it works. I brought on a couple of people that I closed the, it's not to say that they weren't professional.

[00:16:17] They were still professionals. It's just I closed the blind eye to the level of their skill versus their relationship to me. And I brought them in and that cost us three months of just operational time where I'm so much more progress. And I'm not knocking them. It's all learning process for us. But definitely, I can't underscore how important a team member is. There's just this quick week. We're really, really blessed now. Even like I'll just shout out one of our superstars, Yuri. I mean, I don't know what he doesn't do.

[00:16:47] It just feels like the, every time we're working, there's something on the skillet. Somebody's cleaning something. There's a guy coming down the landscaping, washing the way. He just does absolutely everything. So hiring is very important. And on the building side of things, the most difficult mistake I made. I mean, it's silly. It's not really expensive. But it was really, I guess it was more of a strike to my ego that during the earlier rounds of yield distribution,

[00:17:15] he did not, the distributions only go to the notes offer recognized the first implementation of the notes offer, recognized all addresses below a certain threshold with that meta criteria. And it did not filters. We're receiving yield instead of two notes. So like one random time, two new nodes arrived. We had a node miscount number one.

[00:17:43] And number two, the yield wasn't making its work from the user to the users. It was just going into liquidity pools. Now, capital wise, it's not too crazy. It was like maybe up to two grand, something like this, three grand. But again, that ultimately reflects how capital efficient the system was, how much value, because there's a quantitative difference that I always, I feel people don't pay attention to.

[00:18:07] There's always a difference between the number you get paid out and the number that you actually realize, if that's the right way to put it, because you could have earned whatever you wanted to APY on Solana or whatever, pick your favorite crypto. But what did you realize into your dollars or gold, whatever your strategy is? So yeah, long with the answer. Got it. So now when you hire, what do you look for? Now, definitely recommendations. It has to be somebody recommended by somebody else.

[00:18:36] That is the best way to hire. So we talk to other teams in the space. And if they know somebody looking for good placement, because right now it's, I mean, it's always been difficult to hire in this space. Like now it's even more difficult than before. There's more autonomy. There's just so many dynamics changes. So definitely recommendations. There's nothing as good a recommendation. I recommend also, oh, this is also kind of random.

[00:19:03] But what I do is definitely look for people that are not scared to stand up to you when they think you're wrong. Because that was also earlier on in the process. We had like people were saying, this is great. This is great. This is great. And then I'm sitting there. And like, pardon me, I'm looking at this like slop. And I'm just like, how does nobody notice? Because again, we're doing multiple functions. And ultimately it's still my fault. But I'm looking at the slop. I'm just like, how did nobody notice this? And I realize it's because they're all being yes members.

[00:19:31] Like, okay, guys, if you don't start telling me where I'm wrong and where I'm like, what's going on. Infinitely valuable. Infinitely valuable. Yeah. There's a lot of BSers out there. How do you cut through? How do you cut through the... How do you acknowledge up front when somebody's a BSer and somebody's not? You know, that's the... I mean, I guess that applies to any situation in life. Only time can tell.

[00:19:58] Because a lot of people are really well equipped in how they articulate and what they talk about. A lot of people even have a good history to show for them. But when it comes to the actual task at hand, they don't execute. It doesn't matter if you have whatever, Facebook in your past. But if you were just sitting there farming their... What's it called? Their paychecks. This is not going to work in this kind of a company. This kind of company needs to move fast. And we all need to be collaborating and super task focused. So... I mean, it's hard. Only time can tell. Only time can tell.

[00:20:29] Well, I had a place where I used to earn a yield and time told that I became bankrupt. And that was on Celsius. So, you know, eventually got some money back. But, you know, I was chasing yield. And they say that if you're chasing yield, they don't understand where the yield comes from. Guess what? You're the yield. So... But that goes into... You know, every protocol creates incentives, right?

[00:20:55] So how much a building is actually designing human behavior and not just yield? I mean, these are actually all-star questions. Because... That's the business side in doing what you're doing. Because crypto has previously been subject to building solutions and then looking for a problem to that solution. Like doing things invertedly. Here you need to...

[00:21:25] Right now, actually, a quick note about if you don't know where the yield is coming from. That's why we explicitly keep chewing it out for people. And it sounds complex because we need to keep diving in where the yield is generated from the transactional activity from this part, from this part. That's why we have to keep explaining it. But on the surface, I promise it's very, very simple. In any case. Bringing back... Where were we... I started going down the wrong track. And where were we just at? No.

[00:21:52] I wanted to find out if what you're building is actually building human... Designing human behavior instead of designing just this yield. I mean, yes. Yes. Specifically, of course, the team. Designing the human behavior around that. The human behavior designing part. I mean, you can't... A man forced against his will is of the same opinion still.

[00:22:18] So it's really hard to try to force users to have some kind of a behavior or do some things. We try to lean into more, again, as like this... As a more of a passive growth vehicle. The way we have to talk to people is with different time horizons. Like people aren't coming into seasons that are only interested in generating yield for a day or two. They're typically coming in there with like six-month time horizons. You know, because again, I think another really impressive way...

[00:22:47] And this is about the behavioral mechanism. Right now, the behavioral mechanism of people who want to get Bitcoin, you DCA. Your dollar cost averaging per week, you're putting your money in. Once you become a season's node and you're generating yield, you're DCA-ing into Bitcoin perpetually. Every twice a week, every week, you're earning Bitcoin and gold. So rather than having to allocate every single week, you're actually DCA. It's permanent DCA. Of course, the numbers fluctuate, but you can check all of our historic track record.

[00:23:16] It's a couple dollars here. But again, it's also gold, Bitcoin, and JLUDC. What users do with their yield, that's up to them. So the behavior side of things, it's more in orchestrating the team. Like how we communicate what we say when we make publications. Even right now, we're going through is how we're sequencing releases across products. There, the behavior is a whole different scale. And especially talking to like some of the node operators.

[00:23:45] Most of the, again, most of these people are aligned. Like when people read the thing and they're getting in, they understand, okay, so I'm not coming in. I'm not going to, I'm going to leave next week. I'm more interested in like actually applying this as a component in my on-chain portfolio strategy right now. Like that's what it is. Changing human behavior is hard. And especially, especially that's why we move under the more fintech kind of approach because the crypto approach.

[00:24:11] Try selling a crypto person a savings, like a savings vehicle that will save, sit there quietly generating for them twice a week. Oh, but you made $12 this week, $18 this week. They need to see that red, green 30, 40% up. Like this is a different audience. It's a different breed. I think I'd take that $12 or $18 a week and buy Bitcoin with it.

[00:24:37] You know, so people have said that quantum is going to kill Bitcoin or Bitcoin is already dead. But I don't agree with that. So my question to you, next question is when does decentralization become, you know, sustainable or when does it become an advantage instead of a buzzword? When does decentralization?

[00:25:04] It's probably, it's already manifesting in some pockets, in some places for sure. It's already starting. Pia's point being the network state by Balaji, that's decentralization. He's imputing a new state across different jurisdictions. Although I heard what just happened with Malaysia, so it's a little bit different for them. Decentralization, again, it's such a term. You have decentralization in what and governance powers, where does this actually manifest?

[00:25:33] It's already taking place in a lot of ways. I don't know if this happens in our lifetime. Because this is, I believe in truly, ooh, like earth shattering has to happen societally for this to actually take place. It's like something, again, I'm just throwing out a random idea. Some massive world power, Russia, China or US has to actually collapse. And that total reign of chaos that unlocks into the world, that Pandora's box then looks for order.

[00:26:02] And then boom, open decentralization is the actual fabric that comes in to replace whenever there's no central authority. So I don't think this happens in our lifetime, to be honest with you. It's manifesting right now. Like before there were 20 banks. Now we have hundreds of banks, new banks opening up every other month, neo banks. So like it's slowly, decentralization is slowly manifesting. But I don't know if it happens in our lifetime. Okay. Let's say it doesn't. And you're the founder of Seasons.

[00:26:32] And say it doesn't. How important to you would it be for Seasons to carry on after you're gone? And can you ever truly let go? I mean, saying again, saying and doing two totally different things. Because like right now, everybody knows the agentic movement is crazy.

[00:26:55] And we have our own agent, of course, Gaia, which is basically like a carbon living copy of everything Seasons databases, our workflows internally. It's like everything possible. So maybe to talk about decentralization. And that's when it happens is whenever actually like agentic intelligence reaches like a matching point with the enforcement capabilities of humanity.

[00:27:24] And then we have humans and technology as the decentralizing whatever it is, veil or vector. So that's possible. But can I let go? I believe. I don't know. Because, again, like we can hypothesize, talk about how Steve left Apple, then how he came back. But then you look at Apple now and Apple's bigger than ever. It's a monster. I mean, everybody knows this. So would I leave this?

[00:27:54] I think if this were to truly or when this enters its truly perfect state, which is where the actual DAO has material input and impact over the mechanism's configuration, then I have to. You have to give it up. It's necessary. But that's OK, because right now everything we're speaking about is in the context of Seasons protocol. Protocol is the liquidity system. There is an entire enterprise that is being built on top of this.

[00:28:22] So we use this protocol to build different consumer applications on top of it. So it would be just an evolution into the next thing. I know that also it's not fair to compare yourself to Travis Kalanakis, but now he's doing that thing with cloud kitchens and doing to the kitchen what Uber did to the car. And I'm just thinking like, OK, so he moved out of Uber. I'm not comparing Seasons to Uber, but I mean, why not? It's a matter of just execution and society adopting it.

[00:28:52] Right. And then you move into the next phase where whatever that may look like. Got it. Yeah. Why? Why not? You know, all it takes is is is is and you're smart is a smart person with a great idea. You know, so. Let me ask you this. We're looking at we're talking about agenda. We're talking about growth. You say that maybe we don't see in our lifetime, but what excites you about, let's say, the next five years?

[00:29:22] And what worries you? What excites me and what worries me? OK, what excites me and worries me? There's actually one answer that hits that gets both of these right away. It's in tune with the whole Saudi 2030 vision, because I live in Dubai most of the time and I'm very, very open to the Middle East. And we all know what's been going on recently.

[00:29:47] So whenever I think about five years ahead, it's controlling that internal economic critic. That's trying to say bubble, bubble, bubble, because really, realistically, I don't know. I assume over the next five years. Oh, OK. OK. What I'm excited about is I am certain, certain that there will be an order of magnitude more value on chain. This I'm just super certain of that. I know it's going on chain.

[00:30:16] And on top of that, I believe Solana is capturing a tremendous chunk of that. And I mean, of course, we'll go multi chain at some point because seasons right now is just Solana focused. But we'll we'll go multi chain. We'll be able to capture that. So the size of this thing is going to grow inevitably. And and that the fact that this is the agent's native playground, at least everybody speaks to this. Agents aren't going to be using bank accounts. And for now, the federal government does not even recognize an agent as a bankable entity.

[00:30:45] Now, in the future, very possible this happens like the Dow's did with Wyoming and Wyoming did with the Dow's. But for now, they don't. So that's also a tremendous, tremendous, exciting thing. And one of the for seasons, for seasons, especially for crypto as a whole, especially these agents begin using seasons as their default or backdrop savings mechanisms. I mean, this thing scales to absolutely scary numbers, really scary numbers, because, again, it's meant to attract them.

[00:31:13] And an agent will always prefer whatever scalable, reflexive, sustainable. And like, again, it's all natively unchained for them. So that these excite me, I guess, and the size of this. What worries me is that there's a lot of destabilizing geopolitical forces and understanding how and when to take advantage of these opportunities is really the really, really difficult.

[00:31:37] And it's like, you don't want to be the person that, like, during the Internet bubble or during the Internet boom, you don't want to be the person that, for example, was just building your, I don't know, grooming salon, missed all that. And then in the collapse, you are also hit with high rates. And then your company also failed. Like, you want to be the you always want to be the like, of course, everybody wants to feel smart.

[00:32:04] So it's always a matter of ego, I guess, to some to some degree, it has to be. But that kind of destabilizing geopolitical stuff worries me. But again, it's not. I'm definitely like much more optimistic or than anything else about it. Like, I'm not scared for anything, if you will. And I want to quip about regulation.

[00:32:28] But honestly, we mean, we've been talking about regulation since I don't even know 10 years and we've moved forward this much. So that's basically that that's it will come. Yeah, I agree. So my show isn't really about crypto. It's about a family's journey. So what about what you're building, what you built, you know, what people, you know, found.

[00:32:53] So when you look back 20 years and people remember you, remember Andre, the builder, the founder, you know, in 20 years, what do you hope that they remember most?

[00:33:25] That he was right, I guess. I'm kidding, of course. I'm kidding, of course. But what would I want them to remember? Okay, that he was right about it's honestly, absolutely all like whatever you want to do, however you want to do it. It's just a matter of your internal state. And if you can gain control of your internal state, absolutely anything is possible. I'm not saying you can go out now. I'm going to go become a basketball player.

[00:33:54] I just mean actually dialing into. How things work and understanding, understanding how much you don't know. That's probably one of the tiny superpower that I always have helping me out is I'm aware of how much I don't know. Every time I read a new book, listen to a new podcast, or even just like build a new piece of tech, I realize that for every one thing I learn, the less I actually know.

[00:34:24] If that kind of makes sense. So I just say just keep adventuring. Just keep adventuring, honestly. Keep it, everything's going to work out. It's always going to be okay. Awesome. I want to thank you very much for your time today. Enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure talking to you.