[00:00:00] Hello everybody and welcome to the Crypto Hipster podcast. This is your host
[00:00:05] Jamil Hasan the crypto hipster where I interview founders entrepreneurs executives thought leaders artists
[00:00:12] You name it all across the world of crypto on blockchain and today I have another amazing guest for you
[00:00:18] He is the co-founder of XO core. His name is Warren Anderson Warren. Welcome to the show
[00:00:25] Hey, thanks for having me on
[00:00:27] You're very welcome
[00:00:29] Let's uh, so yeah, so let's kick things off. I'm gonna ask you the first question is
[00:00:34] What is your background and is it a logical background for what you're doing now?
[00:00:41] So the answer will reveal the second part of the question
[00:00:45] I have been in crypto full-time for over 10 years and
[00:00:51] So I barely remember what it's like to not work in crypto
[00:00:56] And but basically I got started
[00:01:00] mining Bitcoin
[00:01:01] Back in this actually
[00:01:04] 2011 cut the tail end of the CPU
[00:01:07] phase
[00:01:09] Basically played around with Bitcoin learned how to and not to trade
[00:01:15] cryptocurrencies in 2013, I said I'm staking my career on this technology and
[00:01:21] Started a company called Hedgy which was the first DeFi platform
[00:01:28] Full-stop it was actually built on Bitcoin using Bitcoin script
[00:01:32] We were building smart contracts before aetherium
[00:01:36] Actually existed. It was the first OTC wholesale platform for for for any cryptocurrency
[00:01:43] So at the time Bitcoin miners would only could only sell on exchanges created a lot of volatility
[00:01:49] so we created a platform for them to sell direct institutions and
[00:01:56] We built a great platform great product ran into some regulatory headwinds
[00:02:01] And then I joined ripple in the summer of 2016 to lead all of their crypto products and protocols
[00:02:09] on the product side, so
[00:02:11] At ripple I had I was there for five years
[00:02:14] Which is an eternity, but I got to work with the core developers of the XRP ledger
[00:02:21] Got to work with very closely with the early kind of community of the XRP army
[00:02:28] also
[00:02:30] Co-created their on-demand liquidity product called ODL which has become their flagship product for cross-border payments
[00:02:36] So I had a good tenure there
[00:02:39] After five years I woke up and said, you know, it's time for me to move on and I joined a
[00:02:45] ZK project focused on privacy. It was just in the research phase of the time
[00:02:51] we took it from research into production as fully called fedora and
[00:02:57] Spent two years kind of developing that getting getting really versed in kind of a ZK
[00:03:03] Ecosystem and
[00:03:06] And we had a great time kind of grew the the contributors list from a handful to I think over 80
[00:03:14] People were working on the project full-time when I left
[00:03:17] So and then you know, I kind of took a pause and I wanted to do something from scratch
[00:03:24] Start my own thing again, and I kind of went back into notes, you know saying what's the most interesting thing?
[00:03:30] I've seen in crypto a while
[00:03:33] Restaking was triple underlined. I had heard about it, you know kind of conceptually for the high-level
[00:03:40] theoretical
[00:03:42] Where Sri Ram gave a talk at Stanford blockchain conference and so decided to dive in deeper
[00:03:48] This was December 2022 January 20 23 and then I brought together a couple close collaborators
[00:03:57] RJ Lon the former co-founder of Harmony
[00:04:01] And and reluqa adipopo as a professor at UC Berkeley and cryptography and security
[00:04:06] We all have a background, you know in you know security and building these
[00:04:12] Crypto products and services especially RJ and I you know, we've built bridges. We've built
[00:04:17] Oracles we've built a lot of what you call now these restaking ABS is so we're coming from a
[00:04:24] perspective as a user
[00:04:26] wanting to build
[00:04:29] Restaking tools for developers, you know as as users of the tools ourself and
[00:04:35] And so that's really how
[00:04:38] My background is so relevant because we've experienced the pain point that these users have faced and we can empathize with them
[00:04:46] And build a product experience that really really resonates with them. I'll say your background is pretty logical
[00:04:55] You
[00:04:58] Did say something that I you said this is Bitcoin script and I'm when I hear Bitcoin script, I think a white coin
[00:05:05] You know
[00:05:07] But then exoprea that's pretty pretty good
[00:05:10] Okay. So now you're now you're building exoport. We're gonna get into restaking
[00:05:16] The first thing is you have you have a mission to power an open market for decentralized trust
[00:05:22] That's needed. How do you do it?
[00:05:25] Yeah, I think it's important just so we started with kind of carving out some core principles
[00:05:31] You know this this exo core is a is a very decentralized project this differentiates from other restaking
[00:05:39] Projects in the space and so really ironing out. What does that mean?
[00:05:43] You know open market for decentralized trust should be decentralized
[00:05:48] So that means from having open, you know community governance
[00:05:54] Exo course implemented as a layer one blockchain that's optimized and specialized for restaking across different
[00:06:02] L1 block chains. So
[00:06:05] what it really means is it's it's aggregating the decentralized trust or the decentralized security of different block chains and
[00:06:14] Extending that decentralized trust to other services like off-chain. So this can be classically bridges oracles
[00:06:22] Even AI networks it gets into a lot of even web to networks that are looking to inherit
[00:06:29] Decentralized security to power their infrastructure. Why would they want to do that because it's censorship resistant
[00:06:36] It's immutable, you know all the properties that decentralized services kind of provide
[00:06:41] We can do that by by allowing them to to inherit this without having to bootstrap their own
[00:06:48] Decentralized network themselves. So that's really what we think is exciting creating this open market for decentralized trust, which will actually
[00:06:56] Create an actual concrete value and have and there be actual price discovery around
[00:07:03] Decentralization so we think that's really important. Very cool. So I want to get in I want to get into
[00:07:13] Union rest a restaking what is restaking and then what is
[00:07:17] Union restaking all about and what problems you're trying to solve with this new union restaking approach
[00:07:25] Sure, so restaking has kind of evolved on off the backs of the you know proof-of-stake
[00:07:32] classical staking so classical staking is you you know, you you
[00:07:37] Basically take a token and you commit that token to being locked up to secure a network such as aetherium
[00:07:47] you know for the upside of getting some type of
[00:07:51] Reward or yield and the downside of it being slashed in case there's any issues, you know on aetherium or any of the protocol
[00:07:59] You're securing restaking takes that and and extends it where you can take that exact same
[00:08:06] collateral that you've proposed in is locked up and
[00:08:10] literally stake it again and
[00:08:13] When you stake it again, what you're saying is I'm going to I want to take this existing collateral
[00:08:20] Use it to extend and secure additional services outside of the aetherium or
[00:08:27] whatever blockchain and
[00:08:29] For the same, you know or similar
[00:08:33] Reward mechanism. I'll earn a reward for doing that at the expense of potentially
[00:08:40] That being slashed if there's any, you know violation of the
[00:08:45] Protocol rules by the by the service you're being secured by so that this mechanism is really powerful and
[00:08:53] Huge hat tip to sure. I'm Conan and I can therefore for kind of inventing it. We have evolved that
[00:09:01] Restaking kind of mechanism and and we're introducing it
[00:09:05] reintroducing it where you know, we believe that
[00:09:09] Exit are like single chain restaking which is classically what's eigen there does is you're taking if theorem or native eath or some
[00:09:17] Liquid staking form using it to secure services on aetherium
[00:09:22] There's there's a project called Babylon, which is doing what we call cross chain restaking which is taking Bitcoin restaking Bitcoin and securing services on like cosmos
[00:09:31] What we're doing and we view that as you know, the the single chain restaking is kind of like single player mode, right?
[00:09:38] It's fun to play a video game where just like you and the computer and then the cross chain is more like multiplayer mode
[00:09:45] Whereas you and a friend, you know in your in your room kind of playing together what we're introducing is the
[00:09:53] Basically taking single chamber sticking cross chain restaking and then also introducing something called union restaking
[00:09:59] Which is the ability for AVS is these services that you're securing to also restake to each other
[00:10:06] So this this drastically kind of changes the the plane for how restakers can secure these these services we call this
[00:10:17] You know, this is omni chain restaking or massive multiplayer mode
[00:10:21] So this is really exciting because it unlocks a lot of value across and it changes a lot of the risk reward kind of ratios across the field
[00:10:31] The ladies the way you explained it. I get it. I understand it
[00:10:39] But you said multiplayer modes that makes me think of the gaming but you have a defy background
[00:10:46] This isn't really gaming. It's really people's finances, right?
[00:10:51] Correct. Yes, it is definitely is definitely and I think the term game fi kind of comes in
[00:10:56] We're just using it as a description of like how the different like a mental model for how how people can crop this
[00:11:04] Although I will say that the we're about to launch, you know test net and and and kind of decentralized
[00:11:12] Kind of open an open fashion and there will be a lot of gamification. That's that's kind of around the the experience
[00:11:21] So we've we've taken some time to make that experience really kind of fun. And we think you know users will really love it
[00:11:29] Very cool. Okay, so then you said you said the word omni chain, right?
[00:11:33] You're aggregating decentralized security, right? Is you have a secure system
[00:11:38] Into this omni chain. How do you how do you add the security layer?
[00:11:43] Yeah, it's a great question. So the the security that we're talking about there's kind of two forms, right?
[00:11:48] There's your classic cryptographic security, which is using all these cryptographic primitives to make sure that
[00:11:55] You know things are behaving properly on the protocol
[00:11:59] Then you have your crypto economic security, which is classically
[00:12:04] You know the the basically the the incentive to to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. That's what you know
[00:12:12] Boiled down to what kind of in layman's terms
[00:12:17] So we kind of stand right ExoCorp kind of stands right in the middle where we're extending the crypto economic security to these other
[00:12:26] Services but also, you know powering, you know, a lot of cryptographic security in the same in the same sense
[00:12:33] So, you know, it helps to have one of our co-founders be a cryptographer and security expert to really help help kind of
[00:12:42] Create that security design
[00:12:45] At the architecture level. So so we kind of we have a little bit of both where you know when we're talking about
[00:12:52] Crypto economic security with the cryptographic security and we think that's the sweet spot
[00:12:57] I think it's a sweet spot. So you've seen all these all these news articles about bridge attacks and
[00:13:06] Acts everything so I think that helps to have us something have an expert in cryptography
[00:13:11] You know, absolutely and and RJ and I have been on you know, both sides of these bridge attacks, right?
[00:13:19] We have been victims of the bridge attacks. We've also spotted, you know exploits where we've responsibly disclose them
[00:13:29] To to the developers to patch them. So we know how painful it is and we've experienced that pain first firsthand
[00:13:37] So we wanted to build the solution to help solve this once and for all because we just you can't have a token economy without secure bridging
[00:13:50] And and anyone that kind of says bridging is will never should never happen is not unrealistic. You have to have a way to hop from one
[00:13:59] Blockchain to another in a secure fashion. So, you know, we really spend a lot of time thinking about that
[00:14:08] Senior white paper you made it you work on mitigating attack vectors, right?
[00:14:15] How do you how do you do it on your chain and then I want to ask you another question about attack vectors after that
[00:14:21] Yeah, so we we took a security by design, you know, most people when they talk about security, they just flash a bunch of like
[00:14:30] Audit, you know badges and say, oh, it's secure. See the audit say we are security practitioners. So we believe that the system needs to have a secure design
[00:14:43] And only in that design it starts at the whiteboard level. So we identified three different areas where, you know, we had
[00:14:54] We need to harden the security or basically
[00:14:58] They're called trust assumptions where we had to really make sure that the trust assumptions were reasonable and managed really well
[00:15:05] The first one was as a layer one protocol. We need to ensure that the protocol itself is reasonably secure
[00:15:13] So what we chose we implemented tender meant for consensus and why we implement tender meant is it's battle hardened. It's been out for many years
[00:15:22] We can rely on it. It scales reasonably well and you know, and it gives it doesn't introduce any kind of novelty in the system. There's nothing new knock on the novelty, but sometimes novel systems can come with security issues
[00:15:35] So we chose to implement that it's also plugable, you know, Exo core is a very modern technology and it's not a very modern technology
[00:15:43] So we can kind of swap things in and out if something else comes, you know, in the future that that's better than tender meant then we can, you know, we can swap it out. Secondly, obviously the is the actual
[00:15:56] The bridging right itself is a trust assumption. So we kind of lucked out with this but
[00:16:01] We identified that to Exo core has to communicate to these other block chains in order to effectively lock unlock and slash the assets and then kind of read the state update the state on Exo core. So Exo core kind of
[00:16:16] Is like a coordination layer of the data that we're going to be able to use to actually do that
[00:16:23] So we actually did a lot of research on how to actually match the the assets and then kind of read the state update the state on Exo core. So Exo core kind of
[00:16:34] Is like a coordination layer across these different block chains and what we identified was, you know, obviously for using you have to kind of cross communicate to these these
[00:16:43] We actually did a ZK bridge like client bridge through layer zero and polyhedra and this is a pretty secure design and the way we use it is also secure. So it's effectively a one way
[00:16:58] What they call a one way state peg. So what happens is we communicate we write to the
[00:17:06] Chains where smart contracts are deployed on Ethereum and these in these other chains that we support.
[00:17:12] And then we we do that to lock unlock and slash the assets and then we read from them through a ZK like client bridge. So it's effectively it's trust minimize of a bridge as you can get there's no minting burning.
[00:17:26] There's no token transfer. So this is like your, your well engineered bridge that you don't necessarily have to worry about crossing
[00:17:36] And we made sure that that was that was really, really important. The third one was and this is probably where most of the security exploits happen is at the smart contract layer.
[00:17:45] One of the reasons why we didn't necessarily like the design that Eigen layer had proposed is that the entire all the restaking operations are within the smart contract layer.
[00:17:58] And what that requires is a lot of complexity with the smart contracts and when you introduce complexity at the smart contract level, it's hard to audit.
[00:18:08] And when it's hard to audit mistakes are made and mistakes are made. That's when exploits can happen. So we propose a different design entirely where it's it's the smart contracts are insanely simple.
[00:18:23] And this probably comes back from my original days of building, you know, these rudimentary smart contracts on Bitcoin, which are really, really, really simple.
[00:18:31] And and because they're so simple, they're very secure. So what all the smart contracts do on these on these different block chains that we support are locked, unlocked and slash.
[00:18:43] And that's like that's that's it. So we can ring fence during the security audit and we can we can ensure that that audit is highly reliable because it's not much to actually audit.
[00:18:55] And so in that simplicity, we think that there's security. So that's kind of the one of the design principles that we really care about.
[00:19:03] You know, I know you're doing it right. Even though I don't I don't have to code is my dad was a civil engineer who built bridges.
[00:19:16] He always talked about the security and the structure. So you talk about it scary. I like, yeah, they're doing it right.
[00:19:22] Sounds good.
[00:19:23] Sounds good.
[00:19:25] That's the first part of attack vectors, right? The second part of attack vectors is something that everybody has to do with. And that is people like Elizabeth Warren, you know, people like government in the government saying Bitcoin is used by, you know,
[00:19:38] drug traffickers or whatever, you know, and that has been an SEC calls in that bucket, right? Of, you know, how do we mitigate those attack vectors as an industry?
[00:19:50] Yeah, this is a this is a topic that's near to my heart. You know, I was at obviously at ripple for five years and they were sued by the SEC and came out victorious at the expense. I think of, you know, several hundred million dollars in legal fees.
[00:20:10] But, you know, it just been I've been generally
[00:20:13] Well, I've been under understanding but also disappointing disappointed at how you know the US government has approached policy and crypto. What I would like to see and you know, I'm a student of history.
[00:20:27] The for instance, during the Clinton administration, the the topic of the internet was was was a huge right and what to do with this open internet. And there were a lot of scammers. There were a lot of you know, pornography and illicit use cases that the internet sound familiar.
[00:20:47] Well, the Clinton administration took a very hands off approach which was based on two principles. It was wait and see and do no harm. And those two principles were basically the bedrock of how the internet emerged in the United States. I think that's the most important thing.
[00:21:10] I would argue based on the fortune by list of Fortune 500 companies and how much of them are our internet. First internet based companies, how much value they've created, how much value they've turned into jobs, etc. That I would say that policy was successful.
[00:21:33] It wasn't perfect, but it was pretty good. It was like categorically correct. And I think what's happening now in the US is the crypto policies categorically incorrect. It's going in opposite direction of where it should be, which is very disappointing.
[00:21:51] You know, obviously Biden was around during during the 90s in the Clinton administration. So I would assume he had a first front row seat of how this kind of evolved. So I don't know why he's not employing that same policy. He literally has the playbook.
[00:22:11] And I think that there are unfortunately special interests that are involved here that are effectively trying to kill crypto. When I say special interests, I primarily mean the banking industry. So what you have now is this regulation or policy or regulation by enforcement.
[00:22:31] Which is something that just is anti-American, I believe. But democracy is messy and it bends, but it doesn't break. So I think what we're at, we're at a bending point where it's bending a lot. But I think ultimately it won't break. And I do think that what we're seeing in the US is that the
[00:22:41] And you know, there's 52 million Americans that own crypto. That's a significant amount. And guess what? They're mobile. They're not going to be able to get into the crypto market. They're going to be able to get into the crypto market. And I think that's a big part of the problem.
[00:22:57] And I do think that what we're seeing lately is the people kind of pushing back. And you know, there's 52 million Americans that own crypto. That's a significant amount. And guess what? They're mobile. They're active. They're politically active. You know, I call my congressman and senator all the time saying, what's the stance on crypto? I see you're on this list and there's a question mark. And you know, these other crypto holders are doing the same. So it shouldn't be a big deal.
[00:23:21] It shouldn't be wrong to own crypto should be able to do it and participate in a decentralized market. These are all things that empower innovation, open innovation, permissionless innovation. So it makes America great. So I think what's going to happen is you're going to see this November that people are going to vote with their wallets or crypto wallets in some form.
[00:23:40] I am. I definitely am. I love the 90s because I thought the Clinton administration had a booming economy, you know? That's the times. The finance was fun. I want to shift and get into AI and get into crypto. I think that's what makes it so different.
[00:23:56] the 90s because I thought the Clinton administration had a booming economy.
[00:24:00] You know, the finance was fun. So I want to get in, I want to shift and get into AI,
[00:24:10] but I have one last question regarding your structure. And it's something that I've seen
[00:24:16] a lot of VCs talk about, you know, repeatedly, and I really don't understand. Maybe you can help
[00:24:22] me here. Modular, what you said your platform is modular versus monolithic.
[00:24:30] What's the difference or what's the benefit of the modular versus monolithic?
[00:24:35] Yeah, so one of my favorite, I don't know if your audience would relate to this, but
[00:24:39] I'm kind of a car guy, right? And you buy a car, you can buy like the car complete with
[00:24:46] everything, right? And it's kind of the engine, you know, the transmission, it's all baked in.
[00:24:53] Or you can go kind of the route of like what you call Mopar, right? And Mopar is like
[00:24:58] Mopar Auto Part, you can kind of build your own car and you can plug in all these different
[00:25:04] things. You could buy a crate engine. You know, I dropped in a crate engine back when
[00:25:09] I was in high school in a 1971 El Camino and, you know, completely swapped out everything. It
[00:25:16] was just fun to what they call mod. And so that's actually no different with how blockchains
[00:25:23] are, these modular blockchains is if you want, you know, a different execution layer,
[00:25:29] you can use that. If you want a different consensus layer, you can use that.
[00:25:33] You can actually pick these and piece them together, stitch them together.
[00:25:39] And the nice thing about modular blockchains is they are actually inherently future proof.
[00:25:45] Because if another better execution layer comes out, then you can actually swap. It's not
[00:25:51] trivial to do, but you can technically swap it out for a new one. Same goes for consensus.
[00:25:58] Same goes for, you know, the kind of virtual machines. So there's all these different kind of
[00:26:04] modular kind of components that you can use. And restaking helps because it can help kind of
[00:26:10] provide this initial cryptographic, crypto economic security for these modular components.
[00:26:17] So the fact that this modular movement is happening and restaking is happening at
[00:26:22] the same time is kind of perfect because you have not just the components, but also the
[00:26:29] method to secure these components. I understand it now. Thank you.
[00:26:35] You're welcome. That's great. So now I want to shift into AI, right? Right now,
[00:26:41] blockchain and AI are converging. I think they're converging, but that convergence,
[00:26:50] what do you see that empowering? Yeah. So right now we've been working on
[00:26:57] quite a bit of AI use cases. Right now, what's happening is there's kind of a ground swell
[00:27:05] for decentralized AI. Now this is going to become a hot topic, right? Because currently
[00:27:13] the AI industry is highly, highly centralized. And not just that, but it's basically
[00:27:20] controlled by the same four to five bank companies that we've grown to love and hate.
[00:27:29] And so this calls into question, do we want the future of AI to also be controlled by
[00:27:35] these same companies? And what happens if one of those AI systems goes rogue
[00:27:43] and there's no alternative, there's no open alternative. And so there's a lot of smart
[00:27:50] people that are working on decentralized AI, which is kind of like a counterbalance to
[00:27:56] the highly centralized AI that's converging. Now the question is, how do you secure
[00:28:03] that decentralized AI? And that's where restaking comes in, is you can extend that
[00:28:10] cryptographic and crypto economic security from these blockchains to secure these decentralized
[00:28:16] AI platforms. Because there's very few teams or projects out there that have experts in both
[00:28:24] AI and crypto economic security. We happen to be one of those teams that have both,
[00:28:34] which is very rare, but being able to effectively outsource your security to
[00:28:42] an Ethereum, to a Bitcoin, to a Solana is really attractive without having to build your own
[00:28:49] Ethereum, Bitcoin or Solana. So that's what restaking, in our view, how restaking can
[00:28:55] insert itself into the kind of cross-section of blockchain and AI. And so restaking can
[00:29:02] actually help empower this decentralized AI movement to ensure that there is an alternative,
[00:29:09] an open alternative, just in case any of these big company kind of AI agents go rogue. We at
[00:29:18] least have something to kind of counteract them. Yeah, remember you're talking about going rogue.
[00:29:27] My friends and I went to a total recall when it came out and we were like, whoa,
[00:29:30] that was wild. And then we went to the class of 1999 and then we were terrified.
[00:29:38] It was like, if you haven't had a chance to see it, check it out, many years ago. But
[00:29:46] we were more afraid than we were trusting. And I know one of the things you're doing is
[00:29:52] you're scaling privacy to better improve trust. You're working on improving trust.
[00:29:56] And if people are fearful, they're not going to be trusting.
[00:30:02] People are wary of privacy to begin with. So how do we scale privacy and make it
[00:30:08] trustable and improve trust with 3? Yeah, this kind of goes back to the last few years
[00:30:16] when I was working on ZK privacy for Web 3. And ZK meaning Zero Knowledge or Zero
[00:30:23] Knowledge Proofs is a really amazing technology that has, it's one of those technologies is
[00:30:30] invented in the 80s by Shafi Goldwasser and another MIT professor. And it's really this
[00:30:45] simple concept where you can effectively verify the truth of something without knowing what the
[00:30:53] underlying details are. And a simple case of this is like, I can verify your age without
[00:31:03] actually knowing what your birthday is. And this is like, obviously, this would be great
[00:31:10] because you wouldn't have to disclose your birthday to anyone. I could just say, yep,
[00:31:15] he's over 21 or whatever the threshold is without actually knowing the underlying details.
[00:31:23] And this concept is very powerful. The reason why it hasn't reached kind of mainstream or more
[00:31:31] wide distribution is that there's really, it hasn't been scalable until recently.
[00:31:39] There's a lot of use cases that are currently being used that are using Zero Knowledge Proofs
[00:31:45] mainly for a different use case for scaling what they call the succinctness of Zero Knowledge
[00:31:54] Proofs where you're effectively shrinking a set of data to make it more scalable.
[00:32:01] But there's an expansive set of use cases around privacy that can effectively, you can run
[00:32:08] this like these computations on this private data and get these results that are proving
[00:32:15] that something's true, like what is the birthdate over some certain threshold.
[00:32:22] And so right now there's a lot of effort going into scaling this technology. There's two ways
[00:32:28] to do it. One is increasing the, or like improving the arithmetic that goes in
[00:32:36] and like the math, which takes a while. And like when you talk a while of many years,
[00:32:42] so improving the math, making it more efficient. And then the other way is to actually,
[00:32:48] what they call, accelerate the hardware. So it's literally called hardware acceleration
[00:32:53] where you just make the chips way better at being able to run these proofs.
[00:32:59] And so there's actually efforts going on both sides. And this is very exciting because I think
[00:33:06] if the future, and again, if policy can allow this, if everyone can be running on these ZK or
[00:33:14] Zero Knowledge Proofs, then you no longer have to worry about data privacy issues. Oh, my data
[00:33:21] was hacked because some database was leaked. These databases can be secured and encrypted
[00:33:29] where even if the hacker gets involved, they can't see anything because it's encrypted.
[00:33:35] But the problem is how do you run all these computation to use that data? Well, you can
[00:33:39] do it using Zero Knowledge Proofs. So this is like a huge, this is almost as big as blockchain,
[00:33:45] I'd say even potentially even bigger, but can be used by enterprises. And blockchain is actually
[00:33:52] enabling this technology and helping to scale it using these kind of like these mechanisms
[00:33:59] and kind of bringing this back to restaking, you can use these mechanisms to incentivize
[00:34:05] the servers to actually run these really complicated proving kind of verification systems.
[00:34:17] We need the Clinton methodology of wait and see and do no harm.
[00:34:23] Absolutely. I think hopefully at some point in the future we get a political leader that
[00:34:31] really is, they don't have to be technical. They just have to be curious and optimistic
[00:34:38] about the future but also cautious, but not in a way that's like going to hurt innovation.
[00:34:46] America was built on the innovation. I think that's the one thing that America
[00:34:53] gets better than most countries. And if we kill that, that's bad news.
[00:34:58] Yeah, hopefully we have some good news coming down the pipe. We'll see.
[00:35:04] I want to thank you very much for your time today. I enjoyed speaking with you.
[00:35:09] And I have one last question. It's really easy. It's how can people find out more
[00:35:13] information about you, about ExoCore? How can they reach out or how can they do that?
[00:35:20] Absolutely. So you can go to the website, exocore.network, or just follow ExoCore Network
[00:35:28] on Twitter or ex, formerly known as Twitter. I'm also on ex at warpal, w-a-r-p-a-u-l.
[00:35:39] Awesome. Thank you very much for your time today.
[00:35:42] Absolutely. Thanks for having me.