How to Design the Most Flexible and Efficient Staking Strategies and Experiences for Solana Users, with Michael Repetny @ Marinade

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everybody and welcome to the Crypto Hipster podcast. This is your host, Jamil Hasan, the Crypto Hipster, where I interview founders, entrepreneurs, executives, thought leaders, you name it all over the world of crypto and blockchain.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And today I have another amazing guest and this interview is a couple months in the making.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, I'm glad we're having this discussion today. I want to introduce a contributor.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Marinade his name is Michael Repetny. Michael, welcome to the show.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much for having me to be here.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You're very welcome. I have been looking forward to this for a couple of months.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: The year's scheduled to work out but now today they are, which is excellent.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me ask you first to kick things off. You know, what is your background and is a logical background for what you're doing now?

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Got it. Yeah, it might not be that logical.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But my background is that look maybe 20 years ago. I started building stuff on the internet.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's how it all started.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So it dates back in my early ages, back in high school and we started to build websites.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Then we would build the website, not only for ourselves but also for some extra clients.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we had the website, nobody was coming in.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So we had to learn how to act part traffic through the websites, how to generate traffic.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So then we learned all this stuff about SEO, marketing ads and all those kind of things.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we would drive traffic through the website and eventually that traffic would show up.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But nobody would buy. So this led me to this conversation right, optimization, specialization back in the years,

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: where which eventually led the incident of doing this as a marketing agency, which was in the very early days later,

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: who launching my own startup in the web to analytics space.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So what we did is that we had a software as a service and we would let the people see how people use their websites, but visually.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So online with the traditional web analytics tools which would show you the numbers, graphs, averages and so on.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We would show them beat maps, recordings and those kind of things to show them visually where they're leaking money and how to improve their website.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's how I started, say, on the internet on the per-excite.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So I went through this startup journey, we got invited to some interviews around white community and so on with pensabbed events and friends with Scott.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But we were, this was still our university studies, me and the co-founders.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So we made a bunch of mistakes there in this startup world and eventually got run over the competition.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So then I took some time off this startup mode and then spend a few years in consulting mode where I would go and consult to some of the e-commerce websites, how to drive more sales from their traffic.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would essentially use the tool that I built for many, I would use it for myself and for the consulting company.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it was this year of 2020 when I started to use the DFI on Ethereum.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So and that was the rapid hole really because I loved this concept.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So I liked everything about it, it was all new to me and really a rapid hole and eventually the gas piece was just so high to me that I started to look at alternatives.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Initially I saw other chains, theoretically ones like pocket of the Rousseau Ma, I participated in a bunch of hackathons and then eventually found out kind of by coincidence really so long.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So my background I studied the University of Economics, you didn't product but at the same time I've been already running a bunch of startups, bunch of things on the internet, I'm on a different nerd hard doing this stuff for ages now.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So the crypto was maybe in the end the logical next chapter for me because I saw what the internet could do for masses and I believe that the crypto really solves some of the fundamental principles and just lays out the better future of the internet of this coordination of masses at large.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I very much value the speed in my life so that's why I was attracted by so on and that was the hooking point back then so that's how it all started.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome. Awesome.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So marinade right I went to the man I got a marina and it looked at the team everybody's a chef but you know what's what's marinade all about and what's your what's your focus and vision there.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: For sure. So Solana as this proof of stake blockchain if I had to explain like what's marinade about maybe a bit brief on Solana has in general so Solana as this blockchain you can think of it as like a database but the database is from not by one entity but by 15 hundred computers across the world that synchronize in real time between the agreeable transactions and so on.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So is this global state machine right the global liquor's the world is extremely performant and is a machine because it could process thousands of transactions per second.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And it cost less than like fraction of a cent to send transaction through this this state machine and this global state machine is powered by this concept of staking which I would explain maybe like a representative democracy.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So as Solana is around not by one entity but by those 1500 computers across the world those are like the electorates so those that would be representing the network really right and then you have the sol owners those might be the citizens of Solana and they can delegate their soltocans to those computers.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And then by doing that they give them voting power to represent them in the network consensus so this staking concept it's similar to this representative democracy.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And now where mannet comes in is that naturally people would usually choose to stake with some well-known who have branded companies and putting more and more stake meaning more and more voting power on those established companies which makes the chain more centralized.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And just less secure less censorship resistant than stable so that's how meridory started back in 2021 so on I will not wear it is today we were looking at 600 villagers at most with 11 of those the biggest that would collectively have enough power to possibly hold a network if they were to collude.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's how we started merinay I love this speed and efficiency of Solana I love this magical moment that hooked me in for the first time I wanted to contribute to the ecosystem.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And it felt to me that doing something with staking and doing a safe secure and merinay what it is in general is that it is its taste in between the validators so those are the computers and then the delegators those will be the people having the sol and they look who to stake with.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: By doing it right this taking system basically merinay is like a marketplace you can think of it or like a marketplace between the delegators and the validators so it connects you a delegator also owner with the best of later some of the market and gives you the best yield and at the same time makes network more secure.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Very cool so remember when Solana first came out you know the big proponent of Solana was Sam Bankman free and you know that Solana is very different than the Solana today you know how has Solana detached from being known as Sam's coin.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know how have you federally managed all the fault scenarios that have been out there against Solana the past few years.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah yeah that's a good question and I think that we felt it the most probably by the FDA collapse right back in twenty twenty two that was really the tipping point.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say the short answer we built through it. I mean there are some fault scenarios that have been thrown at Solana or Hs and Hs.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: The community I would say would only get stronger even after the event of FDA it would just stick together and as you can see today.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the Solana ecosystem as a whole came out way stronger than ever than ever before out of this event because now you're looking at number five market cup crypto project of all things in the crypto space.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You're looking at flipping Ethereum on 30 day decks volume you're looking at the most volume on the NFT side.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So there are just a bunch of things where I think that ecosystem proved to the outside that the Solana tech is here to stay and is here to be the thing that the next chapter of the internet can really build on.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would say that it was an unfortunate event yes it was and it was painful in the short term definitely was some people lost faith in Solana that's for sure.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But in a long run I believe that the event was almost a blessing because it made the network even more resilient once again the community stick together even more.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And for example this reference of calling the chain to be this one month show a marinate finance actually back in 2021 has been launched completely good job without any VC money.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So we would reject tens of BC stands up investors trying to do a try maybe painful maybe slow maybe will not make it but we rejected any C man out there just to make sure that this public good infrastructure of staying is built right is built with the community is built through the fair launch so let's how we did it.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, marinades been running for three four years and has been the number one project on Solana without any VC money. So I hope that also shows that it is possible.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I just became a big fan. So I like to I like to coin that at the VC money or like I like to projects don't have the VC money I don't have to take it in either so that's good.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So there in addition, like one of the narratives about Solana is that it's just a trading coin or it's good only for me.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Right how would you debate that?

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah I would say only but I would say differently it is good for memes it is good for trading as an if as we've seen.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say even with the internet right all the breakthroughs usually they start by people not taking it very seriously by people almost entertaining so even now if you look at the crypto space maybe there are those two camps and most of the crypto narrative outside of our bubble.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say it's still driven by this addiction or gambling. But I think in the end it drives the innovation so we got to start somewhere and as being forward as the infrastructure becomes better more robust and we show to reward it's not only about gambling is not only about memes but there is a fundamental that can power you know like the stable coins this is nothing that's talked about but it's literally helping people out there not to say

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: if their money in cash under their pillow overnight and watch their inflation in their countries so I think there are fundamental to crypto it's just it'll take some time probably for the narrative to flip because now it's it is it is driven by this gambling thing.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was just a long it's great for that that's why people use it that's why people launch maybe hundreds of new meme coins every week but eventually so on it's also great to power a lot of other things.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's this ghosted machine that can be used for many things and to finally I would say power the whole financial system and if the meme coins are included that might be it but it's not the only thing.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about some of those other things let's talk about defy on Solana so I want to find out you know the difference between natives and liquid staking including the risks of both and then how your delegation strategy comes in to fly with both of them.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, push here. So like we were talking about this concept of staking it's truly delayed in your salt to a specific validator this computer out there if they do their job well meaning if they have up time if they are correctly voting transactions then and they are rewarded.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I knew tokens emitted to the system they get to get a cut of it so some commission goes to the validators to those computers out there and the rest is shared with the delay users.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So the traditional concept of native staking on Solana is built in the very later of Solana the protocol as it is so unlike for example other chains on Solana you have this concept of delegation where you can choose as little as say one saw you can pick one of those 1500 dialysis on the network you click a button and you delegate you are done you are now participating on security the network and you are earning the statement words.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is very easy on Solana and this is the very native thing how you do the classic thing on Solana since it's very big innings.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It has some drawbacks to some people meaning that there is this today unbounding period meaning if you stake your saw and you want to take it out you need to wait up to two days to unstake your soul back.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And for some people this liquid reason could be an issue and second thing is that when Solana defy came about back in 2021 you as a saw older was facing an ultimate decision should I go and use my soul in defy should I provide liquidity should I have it as collateral to borrow against it or should I stake it and get some staking rates.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So you needed to choose and then narrate would basically bring these things together by introducing this concept of liquid saking on Solana so in August 2021 narrate launched liquid sticking on Solana as the first protocol out there with the token call and so.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm so represents your state so in on Solana meaning that it solves those two things that I was talking about with the classic staking.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: As since you are given this liquid token it allows you basically to exit your sting position at any time and you don't need to wait up to those two days to take it back because you can exit instantaneously.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And then be this.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you can use it in defy is your liquid token that you can use around.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it grows eight nine percent against Sol just by holding it so that's how liquid sticking started and we got from zero to six million sold TVL super quick back then but then we saw a flat line for a few years.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And we realized hey this liquid staking maybe that's not how most of the market wants to use this all because ultimately with liquid staking it's great because you have this instant liquidity you can use it in defy but at the same time some people are aware of those additional market risk.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So for the institutional market that wasn't no go and that's why even now 94% of state Solana market is not in liquid staking it's still in the native staking Solana avoiding the smart contract risk.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So those would be the main differences and now like to finish it off with the delegation strategy to come back to your question is that this is where Marinade shines because it.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Marinade does not run a validator Marinade is only a proxy to select the best performing validators on the network so you can think of it almost like an expedient for someone of staking early that it helps the sol owners find the best validators automatically.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you stay traditionally and you stick your soil on a validator that the ledger can go offline they can change commission things can go wrong and you are not getting any staking rewards.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Marinade has this automated delegation strategy which looks over all 1500s whole and a validators programmatically and every two days Marinade would rank them who's the best who charges the lowest commission who's the most up time of the whole time who's the most performant and basically brings the best performance to the user.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And then that's that's how the Marinade strategy works by splitting the stake into multiple loiters 100 plus now to make sure it's well diversified it does something great for the network but also brings the great staking rewards to the user.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're basically ranking based on blockchain ethics and integrity.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's cool.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I like that.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, so so there have been over the past year and a half or two years you know arguments on Twitter x you know between Ethereum maxis and Solana you know investors.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So there have been like the make overriding theme is that who can achieve complete decentralization first there's an argument after that no layer one can right what's missing and what needs to be addressed if no layer one can achieve complete decentralization how do we get them there.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah great question.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think first it.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It would be great for us to understand that decentralization is one part of the whole picture.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's it doesn't make sense to go 100% for that because ultimately we need to do.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We need to find some balance in in those things to optimizing them for when it comes to decentralization.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure what would be the complete decentralization.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm I'm fan of the sufficient decentralization so to say obviously I mean I'm in crypto space so I value this sense of decentralization but to me is a scale.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It is a scale and as long as we're progressing on two thoughts more decentralization I think we are on the rat bar.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: At the same time I would say that different blockchains, different L ones might have different use cases and on those different use cases you might need different levels of decentralization.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And it can be completely fine to have some level on some specific use case where you need more or less of this decentralization aspect.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not sure how to solve it eventually but I think it's this balance between safer formats, decentralization, the security those things around.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And as long as we strive for the right balance, we should be fine.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's I mean we have been fighting with Marinade on this very perform and very scalable chains solana just for this to make it more decentralize.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would do it by skipping the biggest validators from the get go so we would exactly avoid the biggest and only delegated sol to the smaller community wrong validators to support them because nobody's looking or let those validators on the long tail but the upper performance is just nobody sees them so.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So we have to alternate automatically with pick the best and usually the best does not mean the biggest validators so by doing that we have been for three years decentralizing effective as a long and actually increasing this they call it like Nakamoto coefficient right this number of entities that collectively can hold the network.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So throughout Marinade's being around it grew from Solana that back then it was 11 now we're looking at more than 20 or around 20 so it doubled.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that we are progressing is just it's hard to call it this complete decentralization.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not even sure that we should strive for it. It should be decentralized and secure enough to me.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it sounds a lot more decentralized than Bitcoin does at this point in time.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So you know, yeah, you mentioned a few mentioned there that people think about you know.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: When they think of Solana with the Achilles healers and you said security right some will argue that security or lack thereof is Solana's Achilles heal right what's the counter argument that.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's fairly distinguished between security and liveness security in sense that okay I'm I'm going to lose my funds.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is almost out of questions of what Solana mean look let's look at it this way throughout the past there were times where the liveness was an issue.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: The network would hold because it was just intense load on the network and they look at this almost testing in production.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So it just moves fast and the load is insane so if you build something as huge and attracting demand something like that you are going to face challenges as you go obviously.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So Solana went through that but at no point myself I would feel that it is I cannot say it will be an in secure chain so at times there could be audit just but it's a very different thing from calling it.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Secure or insecure chain so when it comes to this liveness things I think it's fair to say that that's one of the aspect of why we should strive for the centralized system to make it more stable more secure more censorship resistant.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And even now to be completely fair Solana can do way better on that front and I think that's probably one of the biggest ecosystem project is now to rewrite and launch completely new a validator client to not be reliant on one.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But to have at least two ultimate the ideally for different implementations of the budget client because if that seems to be not now the if we are talking about the I know.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: About the possibly huge that might be it and we are going to see quite some improvement I would say advancement on that front just next month when we all meet for this break point and you also want a conference where we should see someone else meant when it comes to file and serve which is this new.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the major client and that should be big so I'm positive about that we are not saying that everything is it's great and perfect.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to this running its table running it if you call it secure more like censorship resistant or boggiles then this new client will help a lot.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Something you don't hear about as much often as we used to was Solana's downtime so it looks like it's been running for a consistent little while.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, yeah.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's good to.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So financial freedom right people get into blockchain because they want financial freedom now.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Is financial freedom and how so is it still available or achievable for the masses and if so what does that look like.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I believe so otherwise I wouldn't be here.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't be building this so ultimately I believe that the crypto as a whole helps us the humanity to transfer better to.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Finance stuff better to connect really with the humans over the planet without the need of trust.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's an interesting concept really now I'm thinking about it is just like the venture capital would split the need for an idea on one side and the capital because previously you need to have both to do some some breakthrough.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And then venture capital would then split it into two and then you have two different markets and that's what really drove this huge way of innovation and new projects around.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that a similar thing is really now happening with crypto where it helps the people to interact and coordinate on this huge level without boundaries by eliminating the trust in between them.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Since up until now we've always needed an entity or some intermediary to challenge or to facilitate this trust element in between us as people.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the crypto, this ethos of the book chains will they provide.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: They might ultimately broaden the scope of what the people can do and how they coordinate between them by providing them with a tooling of this trustless environment.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Just like the contracts, you know we're we're talking about this more contract so there are just many many things that I'm quite hopeful we can learn from the past we can also see on the era of the internet how it started that's one thing and how it evolved.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Where we are right now and hopefully which crypto where we might be heading so I'm still I would say I'm very hopeful obviously the crypto as it is right now.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I would probably call it the industry of 90s in the internet where we don't even happen escape just the infrastructure is being built right people are fighting themselves now what to do so it will obviously take some time.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But eventually I think this is a breakthrough as big as really the internet so general I'm bullish I think can cover.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: The next that I'll be humanity of you know financial markets of the internet and how we coordinate and it will scale.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Got it so I see when you talk about the the middle man trying to test it out picture this little chihuahua was not so I was gallery genslor.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he sees chief who's going around suing everybody you know suit and open c.s today so like to call everything a security.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Except for any the meme points on salana so I see you guys have a clear path you know that's just my like why are we you know.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: How was how was the meme coins a clear path for you to maybe be a facilitator for that financial freedom.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, could be accurate could be interested. I mean they know the main points and the whole cultural movement the memes at the end of the day they drive everything around us I would say.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's definitely interesting to watch me myself I don't.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I watch it. I don't engage at much with the main point projects and so on and because we are quite too busy to believe in the first I'm a social.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to run the meme coins on but definitely it is an interesting concept and something we are watching closely.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Very cool so I enjoyed learning more about salana today I learned I enjoyed learning what you guys do.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you have a bright future here so I really appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time to speak to me.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I have one last question really. It's probably the easiest one.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: How can people find it more information about you about marinade about what your what you guys do how can they participate in this a lot of ecosystem do some staking how can they do anything.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah absolutely so the best question is probably to look at would be to start at marinade.finance that's the website and it's as easy as three clicks where you can start continuing to the so when I use a system and to the security by sticking your soul it's pretty easy once you try it so there's the app at marinade to finance then we are on Twitter marinade finance we're also on discord preactive there and publish.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Peter quickly through medium and for those that come in person to break point which is this annual solana conference.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: For the first time this year marinade is hosting a staking full day conference call stake points which runs just before break points so happy to see you there either at stake point or break one where we can talk more.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Or we are at switcher this court or a website so give it a go it can be also as easy for those that have solved their exchanges just you know on coin base to this fall from salt web soul and you are ready to go and you are behind the scenes already using marinade so you don't even need to go to the website to start using the marinades liquid saking product if you want to use the native taking product then the website is a is a way to go so thanks all for having me.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It was great awesome thank you very much for your time today. Thank you.