How to Simplify Sophisticated DeFi Strategies for the Web3 World, with Kurapika @ Factor

[00:00:00] Hello everybody and welcome to the Crypto Hipster Podcast. This is your host, Jamil Hasan, the Crypto Hipster, where I interview founders, entrepreneurs, executives, thought leaders, all around the world of crypto and blockchain. And today I have, well, I have another amazing guest to bring your way. I'm looking forward to this interview and I'm going to hope that I pronounce his name correctly, which I think I will. My guest's name today is the founder of Factor. His name is Kurapika.

[00:00:30] Kurapika, welcome.

[00:00:32] Thank you very much for having me, Jamil. Yeah, and you pronounced it perfectly. How are you today?

[00:00:37] I am great. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining me.

[00:00:42] So, I want to kick things off and ask you to start off with a simple question, you know.

[00:00:48] What is your background and is it a logical background for what you're doing now?

[00:00:54] That's actually a great question. So, first of all, hi everyone. I'm Kurapika, the CEO and founder of Factor.

[00:01:01] So, my background before crypto was in fintech and Treadfi. I've been working and developing different analysis and research platforms for various stock exchanges, funds and government agencies in order to help them identify various elements within their capacities.

[00:01:22] Starting off with crypto, I started personally in 2016.

[00:01:29] And just a year later, I founded my first company, which was an analysis and rating firm that was more focused on the ICO craze, which was back at the time.

[00:01:41] So, for anyone who wasn't there, it was really the starting of the token launches all around and many different companies, both established and new ones, started to come in and create a lot of different offerings.

[00:01:58] Some of them were great. Some of them were not so great.

[00:02:02] And I figured this is really the time to utilize my background in order to put some sense into it.

[00:02:08] This went really great over a few years. And after that, I kept on advising several protocols until DeFi popped up around 2020.

[00:02:20] And this is, I believe, was really the more of the shift regarding my own ideology and my vision regarding where crypto can become, because it's not only just Bitcoin or the base layer of smart contracts,

[00:02:37] but we can really shift how the financial vertical will look like in the future.

[00:02:42] And I think this is really what brought me to build Factor as a whole, which will, of course, elaborate in a few.

[00:02:51] Yeah, I miss, I gotta be honest with you, I miss the ICO days.

[00:02:56] That was wild and crazy.

[00:03:01] Yeah, casino at its glory.

[00:03:03] But I believe we're now really in a much better time.

[00:03:07] Although right now we have some replacements, I think really it's really the time to focus on the utility part and how we use this amazing innovation all around to really bring something of value other than, you know, just, again, a very inefficient casino.

[00:03:27] Yeah, yeah, I agree with you.

[00:03:29] I like stability.

[00:03:31] So let's talk about utility.

[00:03:33] Let's talk about Factor.

[00:03:35] What is Factor all about and what makes it unique?

[00:03:40] Wonderful.

[00:03:41] Yeah.

[00:03:41] So we spoke a bit about the emergence of DeFi in 2020 and 2021.

[00:03:47] And basically it all started when crypto has started to, let's say, imitate TreadFi by really building all the different primitives.

[00:03:57] Right.

[00:03:58] So anything from lending to swapping and all of the different things that the real world has to offer.

[00:04:04] Some of them are great.

[00:04:06] Some of them had kept improving over the years.

[00:04:09] But what we were left with is somewhat of a fragmentation in how you can really access all of these different products and protocols.

[00:04:19] And this is really where Factor comes in.

[00:04:22] So Factor is a composability layer for DeFi.

[00:04:26] And what it means is, in a more layman's term, we are building the Shopify for DeFi.

[00:04:31] So when we are looking at Shopify for DeFi, there are two prongs to it.

[00:04:37] One is the creator side.

[00:04:39] So the creators, in our perspective, would be those one percenters, the ones with the financial knowledge of how to create the most optimized strategies to the best of their knowledge.

[00:04:51] And they have it.

[00:04:52] They either came from TreadFi or just really stuck with DeFi from the get-go.

[00:04:59] And they really know how to manage strategies in the best possible way.

[00:05:04] The other side, the 99% of us, maybe it's you and I, Jamil.

[00:05:09] I don't know.

[00:05:09] I can testify about myself.

[00:05:11] I really know about DeFi.

[00:05:12] But optimizing strategies to the best of anyone's capabilities is beyond me.

[00:05:18] And this is exactly what Factor comes to solve.

[00:05:21] So we've built a tool called Factor Studio, which lets those one percenters build and automate any type of strategy.

[00:05:30] So you can now mix and match all of these different primitives and protocols with a very simple UI and basically build whatever strategy that comes in mind.

[00:05:45] What it means is that you can not only build it for yourself, but you can also offer it to those other 99% for them to easily deposit into it in one click.

[00:05:56] And this is how we really close the cycle between those who have the knowledge and those who just have capital and they want more yield on it.

[00:06:07] That's interesting.

[00:06:08] That's interesting.

[00:06:09] Because, you know, I don't consider myself in the 99%.

[00:06:12] I definitely don't consider myself 1%.

[00:06:15] I've been through enough rugs and hacks in my life where I consider myself in the 0% sometimes.

[00:06:22] Yeah, no, it's a tough market out there.

[00:06:25] And really, again, I think, you know, it's true to the financial world in a more traditional sense, but also in DeFi.

[00:06:33] Financials are really hard to understand.

[00:06:36] And unless you basically dedicate your entire life into it, there's not much reason or chance you'll become a sudden expert in it.

[00:06:45] And this leaves us with, well, most of humanity who, again, has capital and just wants a bit more of it.

[00:06:54] Right?

[00:06:55] Yeah.

[00:06:56] Yeah, I agree.

[00:06:56] Yeah.

[00:06:57] So I want to find out.

[00:07:01] You know, it's interesting.

[00:07:04] Your protocol helps people, the 99% and the 1%, right?

[00:07:08] Create, manage, and optimize on-chain financial strategies and that's strategies, right?

[00:07:13] And I heard, you know, that you're akin to money Legos, right?

[00:07:19] How does your protocol do that?

[00:07:21] And how is it comparable to money Legos?

[00:07:25] Exactly.

[00:07:26] So basically, we can start off by talking about the difference between TreadFi and DeFi.

[00:07:32] So TreadFi, in a more recent sense, it's just a very closed garden, right?

[00:07:40] So you have your bank and you can operate with your bank.

[00:07:43] And there is now a different bank.

[00:07:46] And let's say you have a loan in your bank and you want to move it from one bank to another.

[00:07:51] This ain't no simple task.

[00:07:54] Why?

[00:07:55] Not necessarily because of technical issues, but actually just the way centralized elements and firms work.

[00:08:06] And this is really what DeFi came to change.

[00:08:10] We're building the open finance.

[00:08:12] And Factor took a look of it and said, okay, we have all these different primitives, all these different protocols that are open source.

[00:08:21] They have open contracts and they can be connected to one another.

[00:08:26] So remember we mentioned those one percenters, right?

[00:08:29] They now go and manually operate strategies.

[00:08:33] They go to protocol A and maybe take a flash loan out of it and then go to protocol B, which is maybe a decentralized exchange, and they deposit a liquidity into it.

[00:08:47] There could be hundreds of steps that they could do only manually and many times not efficiently.

[00:08:55] And this is exactly what Factor Studio, our tool for the experts, came to solve.

[00:09:01] And if you will ever have a chance to go into our app, you'll see how much money Lego it is.

[00:09:07] You literally connect between those different operations, whether it's lend, borrow, provide liquidity, or maybe swap, and even put some conditions into it.

[00:09:19] Because some things you can fully automate, like when will the action happen?

[00:09:25] Or maybe when a price of a certain asset goes beyond a certain point, you would want the next operation to hit.

[00:09:34] So it's really, again, like those money Legos, like Tetris, where you put all your pieces together.

[00:09:40] This is exactly what we had envisioned and we put into fruitation with Factor Studio.

[00:09:46] And again, for the other 99%, they don't need to understand the money Legos, right?

[00:09:53] It's the knowledge of the experts.

[00:09:55] They just want to find the most utilized and optimized strategy and deposit into it.

[00:10:03] I understand all that.

[00:10:07] I'm assuming, I don't know where you're physically located.

[00:10:11] I'm assuming Japan?

[00:10:14] Not at all, actually.

[00:10:15] I'm quite global in that sense.

[00:10:17] Okay.

[00:10:18] All right.

[00:10:19] Well, then from a global perspective, you know that two years ago, we had a rash of bankruptcies.

[00:10:25] We had FTX, but before that, we had BlockFi.

[00:10:28] We had Celsius.

[00:10:30] We had a whole bunch of crashing because of the lunar terror, lunar, right?

[00:10:36] So I'm trying to compare what those companies were like to what you built and I want to know what the difference is.

[00:10:44] Wonderful.

[00:10:45] So first of all, all those firms that you mentioned are basically fully centralized.

[00:10:51] So, I mean, it's different because, and it kind of emphasizes one of the main issues with centralized exchanges or centralized entities,

[00:11:01] where their point of failure is many times the humans that operate it and the systems that they build in order to centralize the value that they gain.

[00:11:12] So we've built a fully decentralized money Lego or Shopify for DeFi where anyone can build it in a fully permissionless way.

[00:11:23] This means that you have the actors, which are the creators and the ones who are depositing, and they can interact to one another in a fully siloed and protected way,

[00:11:36] even if one of them decides to become a bad actor.

[00:11:39] Because this is both the value and the obstacle that DeFi came to solve.

[00:11:47] So we don't know one another, right?

[00:11:50] We don't really know who is on the other side of the deal.

[00:11:54] In the cases of FTX or BlockFi or anything else, again, the names can always change.

[00:12:00] And we know it also from the traditional finance.

[00:12:04] There is the term called bank run, right?

[00:12:06] Where banks just have not enough liquidity as they reported.

[00:12:12] And when all of us, the public, come in to pull up our money, it's, well, it's just not there.

[00:12:19] And this is really what is not available or cannot happen in DeFi, which I believe this is one of the holy grails or the reason why the ideology aspect is so important.

[00:12:32] We have an opportunity to really have open finance, where the security, although, again, there's various different security elements that we are struggling or working to solve as an industry.

[00:12:48] But it's much better than the human element where greed is the only motivator for these progresses.

[00:12:57] So back to DeFi, I believe that we have an opportunity to really shape how finance is being worked all around the globe.

[00:13:08] And Factor has this integral part of it, which connects all of these blocks together.

[00:13:16] You know, it sounds to me like what you're building is what should have been built in the first place.

[00:13:24] I couldn't agree more, Jamil.

[00:13:26] I couldn't agree more.

[00:13:28] But again, I really don't believe that it is possible in a world that is centralized, right?

[00:13:36] Because there is many limitations.

[00:13:38] And again, different human factors, pun intended, to really have blocks from it to happen.

[00:13:47] And DeFi or open finance is the solution to bring us, the public, a brighter future.

[00:13:56] I love the concept of a brighter future.

[00:13:59] Yeah.

[00:14:00] But in order to get there, you know, we need to solve some challenges.

[00:14:04] So like, what are the challenges with DeFi today?

[00:14:08] And how can no code DeFi solutions help bridge the existing Web 2 to Web 3 gap?

[00:14:16] That's a great question.

[00:14:17] So first of all, let me refer to the no code element.

[00:14:22] So, well, no code means you don't need to be a developer in order to interact with it.

[00:14:29] If we go back to the more fundamental or early stages of DeFi, and it's true to crypto as well,

[00:14:37] it all looked almost like Windows 95.

[00:14:40] It was very geeky, and you only could access it if you really is either a developer or basically dedicated your entire life in front of a computer and to understand each and every involvement of the Internet and technology as it is.

[00:14:57] I think many of the issues that were true to Web 2 and sometimes are true to Web 3 is that technological gap.

[00:15:09] Not as if we're not all financial experts, we're also not all developers.

[00:15:15] And a developer could now take those different smart contracts from different DeFi protocols and connect them to one another, right?

[00:15:26] Which, again, it's not true to Web 2 and I think this is the evolvement in Web 3.

[00:15:31] But in Web 3 or in DeFi, you'd still have to be this very experienced developer in order to come in and connect the different primitives in order to create your new DeFi protocol, a yield optimizer, or just an automated strategy.

[00:15:49] And this is exactly what Factor came in to simplify because many of those financial experts are not necessarily developers.

[00:15:58] And we really don't want financial experts to become developers, right?

[00:16:03] Because as we know, there is enough security issues in DeFi for unexperienced devs or let's say people that would not necessarily dedicate all their time for all the security audits and the other requirements that are needed in order to assure the smart contracts are operating correctly.

[00:16:25] It's just something that are not necessarily.

[00:16:56] There are also different pre-made templates that you could get going.

[00:17:02] Again, as you, as the expert who has the knowledge of how to do it, we provide you the shortcuts of doing so.

[00:17:10] So you don't need those really hard laboring development processes.

[00:17:17] You don't need the audits anymore.

[00:17:19] You just come in, you bring in your DeFi knowledge, you build your strategy, you automate, and you deploy all in several minutes.

[00:17:28] I, it's interesting you said that.

[00:17:36] You don't want the financial experts learn how to code, right?

[00:17:43] And I'm thinking, like, I read a report recently that said, you know, if blockchain had been available at, like, the Silicon Valley Bank, the different banks that failed a couple years ago during the summer, you know, then there wouldn't have been a failure.

[00:17:59] But I'm thinking, you know, one of them, they didn't have on board in their expertise in the companies where they had no one there who had working knowledge of CCAR, which is the capital requirements for banks.

[00:18:12] Right. So why wouldn't you want a financial expert to be involved in the coding?

[00:18:18] Because maybe if they had the stress testing coding in that code, then there wouldn't have been a failure.

[00:18:24] Oh, so that's a great point.

[00:18:26] And let me emphasize here.

[00:18:28] So it doesn't mean no financial expert should go into coding.

[00:18:33] And as you know, smart contracts, especially when it comes to DeFi, requires a lot of financial knowledge in order to devise them in the most optimized and secure way.

[00:18:46] That being said, having all of Citibank or all of Deutsche Bank or anyone that ever touched DeFi to come in and fully start developing smart contracts, that's just, in my perspective, a waste of talent and time.

[00:19:05] If we have talented people who knows how to operate financial instruments, we have very talented developers who can develop smart contracts.

[00:19:16] And we have exactly as you mentioned, these joint teams or those specific experts that could connect between the two.

[00:19:25] And again, this is what we have in the team.

[00:19:27] And I believe many of the leading DeFi protocols do have these.

[00:19:32] We are all safe and sound.

[00:19:36] But as a financial expert, again, let's imagine now the mass adoption that will come into crypto in the next few years.

[00:19:46] All of the different trade rooms from BlackRock and Citibank and all of these will now come in and would want to use their entire expertise, their 20-year background in finance.

[00:19:59] They wouldn't want to now go and start learning how to code solidity in order to deploy a financial strategy because all of the primitives are already in existence.

[00:20:12] You can now lend, borrow, provide liquidity and do many more advanced operations.

[00:20:17] What you couldn't do until factor came in mind was to actually just go and do it in an interface, really with a no-code environment where you just focus on the expertise itself.

[00:20:32] So just to summarize to your comment, we took care of that element for you as a financial expert to jump in and use your expertise as it is.

[00:20:45] I like that because I've been in crypto for seven years and I haven't learned solidity.

[00:20:51] You know?

[00:20:52] There you go.

[00:20:54] So if I can come in and use tools and I know the landscape, you know, then that would be a game changer.

[00:21:04] So everybody in the coming years, like you said, is going to learn and be here.

[00:21:09] So I call them students, right?

[00:21:10] You call them students.

[00:21:12] Why should interested students attend your Factor Academy?

[00:21:15] Right.

[00:21:17] So basically, we went through a lot of the different aspects of Factor and why we consider it as money Legos.

[00:21:26] And in DeFi, it's a whole different perspective than just coming in as a traditional trader or even someone that just wants to come in and learn about those different innovations in the decentralized finance vector.

[00:21:44] And this is exactly why we embarked not only to build the tools for building it, right?

[00:21:52] The no-code platform and all of the technical infrastructure.

[00:21:56] But we also were focusing on the educational element to really help anyone from a beginner to an expert to be able to experiment and learn and utilize whatever background that they came in with into DeFi.

[00:22:15] So Factor Studio, for example, is not only a tool for anyone to come in and build any type of DeFi strategy, but it's also a sandbox or a playground where you as maybe a beginner in DeFi can come in and really see the operations just in front of you.

[00:22:33] Again, no need to learn solidity to see all the different technical transactions that go into place.

[00:22:41] And you can just go and experiment with your understanding.

[00:22:48] Again, if you're really a beginner, I wouldn't necessarily suggest you to just jump in and deploy a full 70-step strategy.

[00:22:57] This is why we have all these different education pieces in our Factor Academy.

[00:23:02] But if you're an intermediate or an expert trader who has no prior experience in DeFi, you can now really utilize it as a fully operational playground to really see it in front of you.

[00:23:17] And I really believe that there is no better way to learn than just going and experience it on yourself.

[00:23:25] This is what we experience, I think, when people come in and, I don't know, let's say trade meme coins on Binance, right?

[00:23:34] And they never even opened up a wallet before or utilized and decentralized exchange.

[00:23:41] So it means that they haven't really done the transition to our decentralized environment as a whole.

[00:23:48] And this is really why we want to expose as many people as possible with the right education and the tools to make them succeed.

[00:24:00] I'm going to agree with you there.

[00:24:02] I hate to do slam dunk layoff questions, but I'm going to have to do it.

[00:24:06] You know, there was a, I don't know if he's, I think he's active again.

[00:24:12] But there was a developer whose mantra was, I code in prod.

[00:24:19] And, you know, so I'm going to ask you, like, we don't want people doing DeFi in prod without testing, right?

[00:24:26] So what are the benefits of people playing in the sandbox?

[00:24:29] You know, and that's the first part of the question.

[00:24:32] Then I got to figure out what I want to ask you about the meme coins.

[00:24:37] All right.

[00:24:37] Yeah.

[00:24:38] So again, just to repeat your question and let me know if I got it right.

[00:24:42] So are you asking what are the benefits to just go and play around with the sandbox without the prior knowledge?

[00:24:48] Yes.

[00:24:50] Wonderful.

[00:24:51] So again, as I previously mentioned, so there are two facets to it.

[00:24:55] If you're just a beginner, a plain beginner, we have a full educational board, lots of different videos and documentation to really get you going even before you experience Factor Studio, the interface itself.

[00:25:09] But assuming you're anything beyond that, there is, in my opinion, much value in taking a look at the operations, right?

[00:25:20] We call them building blocks, call them money Legos.

[00:25:24] But it's really about seeing the different actions in place.

[00:25:28] So now there is, I believe, over a thousand or I guess many more DeFi protocols in place.

[00:25:36] They are happening in different chains.

[00:25:38] They are operating in different verticals from money markets to decentralized exchanges to leverage protocols to many more complex operations.

[00:25:49] When you go in to Factor Studio, this is all just laying out there plainly.

[00:25:56] You could see the steps.

[00:25:57] You could see how they are working one after the other without the prior knowledge of solidity for the sake of the argument.

[00:26:06] You don't need to come in and really learn how to read on-chain explorers in order to understand how these transactions work.

[00:26:15] And I believe this is really one of the key elements that can bring us into this mass adoption, in our case, in finance.

[00:26:23] Because you really have the capability of accessing it without all this different technical understanding.

[00:26:32] Basically, just like you and I are now speaking via Zoom and through the internet.

[00:26:40] And we don't necessarily need to understand the depth of HTTPS protocols and all the different technical elements that the internet requires.

[00:26:51] Such as crypto and such as DeFi.

[00:26:54] We're now in the phase where UX and accessibility and simplicity are in play.

[00:27:03] Yeah.

[00:27:04] I agree with you.

[00:27:06] And I want to talk about it.

[00:27:07] And I had to ask you that so I could formulate my question around meme coins.

[00:27:12] So thank you for answering that first part.

[00:27:15] You know, a lot of people are making a lot of money.

[00:27:18] At least the ones that are posting on X are claiming they've made a lot of money.

[00:27:23] You don't hear about the ones who lost their shirt.

[00:27:26] But you see a lot more action happening on the meme coins than you do in DeFi protocols.

[00:27:33] And, you know, I'm invested in some DeFi protocols because I'm in favor of DeFi.

[00:27:38] Like, and you mentioned earlier, you know, when we're going to see the people come into the space.

[00:27:43] So how are they going to be able to transition away from the meme coins and into DeFi?

[00:27:49] Or is meme coins a necessary avenue to bring them in before they learn DeFi?

[00:27:53] How do you see it playing out in the next couple of years?

[00:27:57] That's a lovely question, Johnny.

[00:27:59] Really?

[00:27:59] Because I think, okay, so even before, let's go back.

[00:28:03] Remember, so we were at the ICO craze, then came NFTs.

[00:28:08] And I believe meme coin is pretty much a simplified evolvement of NFTs, which is basically, let's call it no utility.

[00:28:20] Sorry, meme coin people.

[00:28:22] It has community, of course.

[00:28:24] It connects people together.

[00:28:25] But at the end of the day, it's a product of speculation, an open casino, right?

[00:28:32] We also, on the other hand, have DeFi.

[00:28:35] Not only DeFi, but there is, of course, a lot of different verticals in crypto, but we call them utility.

[00:28:40] They are here to stay.

[00:28:42] And I think now there is a lot of craze about meme coins.

[00:28:47] It's exciting.

[00:28:47] It makes people a lot of money.

[00:28:49] Sometimes, as you said, it makes them lose a lot, but they don't post it.

[00:28:54] But I think, at least in my perspective, it is a good gateway for people to come in.

[00:29:02] Well, maybe good is not necessarily the best wording for it.

[00:29:06] But as I previously mentioned, before we want people to come in and really understand the entire ideology and what really pushes crypto and DeFi into the future,

[00:29:19] they need to be on chain.

[00:29:22] And in order to bring them on chain, there is various different things we can do.

[00:29:27] If someone buys a meme coin, maybe they bought it through an exchange and then maybe they read that security is a problem, bro.

[00:29:37] So they will go and store it and learn how to open a wallet.

[00:29:42] This is a stage of adoption where they really come in and learn on their flesh what it means to be on chain, what it means to have security and freedom in your hands.

[00:29:58] You know, it comes together.

[00:30:00] So I think it's a gateway for people just like NFT did.

[00:30:06] I mean, many of the talented people I know and even work with came in to this industry in 2021 when the NFT craze started on.

[00:30:16] And some of them left because NFTs went to zero.

[00:30:20] So others stayed, learned about whatever is interesting to them, whether it's Gamify, Socialify, DeFi, sorry.

[00:30:31] And they stayed and took their time to really contribute what their background was and their skills into our industries.

[00:30:41] And this is what we need, right?

[00:30:43] We need adoption.

[00:30:44] We need more talented people coming in and contributing their skills and knowledge to basically maximize what the potential of crypto as a whole has to offer.

[00:30:57] I agree.

[00:30:58] I agree.

[00:30:59] It sounds great to me.

[00:31:02] Yeah, I do.

[00:31:04] I do want to cover one additional thing we haven't talked about yet, but you're in the process.

[00:31:11] I don't know where you're at in the creation of a DAO, but I want to talk about one specific thing.

[00:31:17] I want to talk about your voting mechanism on your incentive distribution because people in DeFi come and say because of incentives.

[00:31:25] Also, probably the rest of the crypto.

[00:31:27] But how does your active and voting mechanism for your distribution incentives work?

[00:31:33] How's that?

[00:31:36] Right.

[00:31:37] Yeah.

[00:31:37] So let me get started by saying.

[00:31:39] So we have, of course, the protocol that is fully operational and it's a full infrastructure for DeFi composability.

[00:31:47] We also have the token FCTR and tokens have different utilities in our world.

[00:31:54] And the first utilities that we were focusing on is, A, bringing revenue share from the protocol to anyone else, but also to allow anyone that is participating within our ecosystem to really vote and control how different incentives are being funneled within our ecosystems.

[00:32:18] And as you mentioned, many times people are just in the hunt for yield and that's fully natural because that's what TreadFi is.

[00:32:28] And this is what DeFi is.

[00:32:31] It's about how to put in capital and take out more of it.

[00:32:35] So we were focusing really about how to have it in a most decentralized and efficient way.

[00:32:42] And I think what the really cool part about Factor and how it utilized it is the fact that you are not only are able to vote on just protocols strategies, right?

[00:32:56] But very soon anyone could deploy their own strategies and monetize them outside.

[00:33:03] So you, the financial expert, I'm the person who wants to deposit into your strategy.

[00:33:10] And now we both have the incentive to vote for that said vote, right?

[00:33:17] Of course, there are many different faults and strategies within this ecosystem.

[00:33:23] And I believe this is the most efficient way to really keep it in a very open and decentralized environment.

[00:33:32] So we're not keeping it for one single protocol.

[00:33:36] Let's call it Factor or any other one.

[00:33:39] But do we really give the power of incentives to the creators and to the depositors who are participating in those ecosystems?

[00:33:49] Very cool.

[00:33:51] I find it all very fascinating.

[00:33:53] So, yeah, sounds good to me.

[00:33:56] So I want to thank you.

[00:33:59] Yeah, I want to thank you very much for your time today talking to me.

[00:34:02] I really only have one last question right now.

[00:34:06] And it's how can people find out more information about you, about Factor?

[00:34:10] How can they use your protocols?

[00:34:12] How can they become a user studio?

[00:34:15] How can they learn?

[00:34:16] How can they do any of that?

[00:34:18] Yeah.

[00:34:19] So, again, first of all, thank you so much for your time and having me.

[00:34:25] And to anyone that listens, I really want to invite you to embark with us on this exciting journey

[00:34:32] to really change DeFi and hopefully finance globally as a whole.

[00:34:37] You're all welcome to visit Factor.Fi, which you have also.

[00:34:42] If you are the 99% who just wants to deposit into strategies, you can go and hit that.

[00:34:49] If you want to now experiment and create, and if you're an expert, really devise a very complex strategy just in a few minutes,

[00:34:59] you can hit studio.factor.fi and go and play around with it.

[00:35:05] We also have great communities both on X and Discord, which you're all welcome to join.

[00:35:11] And we'll be excited to see you, Jamil, there as well.

[00:35:15] I plan on it.

[00:35:16] So, yeah, thank you very much for your time today.

[00:35:20] Thank you very much and have a wonderful week.