Transforming Normies into Degens with Progressive Web App Games, with Tomer Pascal @ OwnPlay

[00:00:00] Hello everybody and welcome to the Crypto Hipster podcast. This is your host

[00:00:05] Jamil Hasan the crypto hipster where I interview founders entrepreneurs executives thought leaders

[00:00:11] Artists you name it across the world of crypto and blockchain

[00:00:14] Around the world and today I have I always have amazing guests. I have another amazing guest

[00:00:20] I actually started playing this his game the other day

[00:00:23] He is a Tomer Pascal the CEO of own play

[00:00:28] Tomer welcome

[00:00:30] Thank you for having me welcome

[00:00:33] You're very welcome. You're welcome. So let's kick things off and ask you first question

[00:00:38] Is what is your background and is it a logical background for what you're doing now? I

[00:00:45] Would say that it's logical

[00:00:48] I started my way

[00:00:50] in the

[00:00:53] Startup board

[00:00:55] 17

[00:00:57] Actually almost 19 years ago

[00:01:01] Where I had I had a vision or a dream of having of building a game

[00:01:09] where players can own

[00:01:12] the their in-game assets and trade them and

[00:01:15] The game that I've chosen back then was a fantasy sports game

[00:01:21] So what my co-founder and myself has built was a fantasy sports game where every real world athlete

[00:01:28] Was treated as kind of like as a company that can issue

[00:01:33] Shares or stocks

[00:01:35] So if you wanted to have LeBron James in your fantasy squad

[00:01:38] You needed to purchase at least one stock of LeBron James with real money

[00:01:44] And it was a tradable asset

[00:01:47] Now bear in mind all of these happened way before mobile gaming what was even invented and

[00:01:55] Obviously way before block chains, so

[00:01:58] Just kind of like charging people with credit cards on online was a pain back then

[00:02:04] So it was a glorious failure of a business in that sense

[00:02:11] Everything was so expensive to do and difficult

[00:02:13] But the users really loved the idea of kind of like and I thought I stayed in love

[00:02:19] With their reaction of kind of like I've seen

[00:02:22] From first hand the love that kind of like players have of having stake in in a game kind of like owning

[00:02:29] Virtual assets that they are tradable and and and and it stayed with me

[00:02:35] Afterward I joined the you know, the dark side of corporate America. I joined a company called Parion

[00:02:42] Publicly traded in the ATT&CK field. I stayed there for many years as a GM

[00:02:47] Managed large groups of

[00:02:49] Enlarged business units

[00:02:52] That's where I met my current co-founder Boaz

[00:02:58] He went and left to join Playtica

[00:03:02] Back then it was a small company joined really early on before they were even on mobile

[00:03:08] So we joined them as their first VP of product and then stay there came a GM

[00:03:13] There and left slightly after their IPO

[00:03:16] As for myself I I founded after Parion I founded an additional at that company

[00:03:21] After this at that company, I joined a company called Atterion. It was back then it was a post round a company

[00:03:29] In the e-commerce field. I joined as their CRO. So it was round two in corporate America

[00:03:35] And and helped led the company to an IPO

[00:03:42] In 2019

[00:03:44] In 2019 stayed there till the end of my investing period

[00:03:49] and and and you know the

[00:03:52] The gene the the virus however, you call it the disease that is called entrepreneurship

[00:03:58] It started itching me back again of kind of like I need to go and do

[00:04:03] My own thing back again, and I called Boaz my co-founder

[00:04:07] And we said it's about time for us to build something together

[00:04:11] Gaming wasn't in our mind to be honest

[00:04:15] We had enough from gaming. He specifically we've seen web 2 as kind of like a red ocean

[00:04:22] Type of field

[00:04:24] but

[00:04:25] the

[00:04:26] Coming kind of like full circle back to my beginning

[00:04:29] Seeing what's going on on web 3 gaming. We're talking about 2021

[00:04:34] Just click to me of kind of like oh

[00:04:37] It's finally about time the the pieces on the board are are in the right place

[00:04:43] And finally kind of like there is a chance of executing

[00:04:47] For the vision of ownership and tradeability of game assets

[00:04:51] You know opening up this kind of potential financial upside for players

[00:04:56] It's about time we can do it

[00:04:58] So that's the background

[00:05:00] Of how we came into this

[00:05:04] I've been playing fantasy sports for uh, how many years 24 years

[00:05:09] So

[00:05:10] You know, it sounds good to me. Um

[00:05:13] What you're doing and I love the fact that you say there's a dark side of corporate america

[00:05:17] But I would I would disagree with you. I would say corporate america is the virus and that entrepreneurship is a virtue

[00:05:25] Yeah, yeah, obviously, uh, I see it in the same way right but kind of like entrepreneurship is not for everyone

[00:05:31] That's for sure

[00:05:33] And being in the corporate life is not for everyone. I was kind of like an all-around player in that sense

[00:05:37] I I can I can jive with both boards but uh, you know

[00:05:43] Most most prefer to be to stay on one side of the aisle, right?

[00:05:47] Yeah, yeah, absolutely

[00:05:50] um

[00:05:51] Own play right on that own play, you know

[00:05:55] Um, I downloaded your game. I started playing it, you know, uh, what is it all about including your mission and your vision?

[00:06:03] Yeah, so the

[00:06:05] Depends on when and when this episode will air right kind of like the version that you played with is the pre-launch version

[00:06:13] Of the game. So it's not a full experience at all. It's an it's uh

[00:06:18] It's a version that we've been testing for the last 10 12 months to prove some of our pieces

[00:06:24] And the main version will be launched

[00:06:28] early june

[00:06:29] Uh, so what's the vision of the game? Uh, so going back again

[00:06:34] we

[00:06:36] We wanted to create games that ownership of game assets and tradeability

[00:06:41] are

[00:06:42] Are kind of embedded into the gameplay

[00:06:45] and out of the

[00:06:47] Tons of different genres of games

[00:06:50] We wanted to focus on mobile gaming

[00:06:52] That was our vision and idea

[00:06:55] we believe that um

[00:06:58] There are current huge web 2 mobile games that players in them are exhibiting

[00:07:06] Um

[00:07:07] Crypto like behaviors or digital like behaviors, uh, whichever word one wants to use in this case

[00:07:14] That are very transferable into the crypto world where they can have, you know, even more fun with a game in this

[00:07:22] Um, so so with that in mind we wanted to create a mobile

[00:07:27] Game web 3 game

[00:07:30] And and and what we had in mind was um

[00:07:35] Was doing a real estate type of game so a monopoly like type of game

[00:07:40] Where people need to acquire real estate, uh trade it rate it change it

[00:07:47] um

[00:07:48] from our point of view it it was a good use case of

[00:07:52] Game mechanics that that's many millions of people understand

[00:07:56] uh game mechanics where

[00:07:58] Um are really transferable to crypto

[00:08:02] just an example

[00:08:03] Scarcity, right kind of like in real estate

[00:08:06] It's so intuitively to understand scarcity and the idea that there is only one building because there is only one address of something, right?

[00:08:13] Uh versus the other type of games sometimes scarcity feels a little bit artificial

[00:08:19] Or forced in the in the real estate game

[00:08:22] Scarcity is kind of like baked in you don't really need to explain it

[00:08:26] Uh, people get it intuitively that okay. There is only one empire state building in manhattan. There are not two of them

[00:08:32] uh

[00:08:34] So from our point of view that was cool

[00:08:36] Uh as a thesis as well

[00:08:38] so our game city versus tycoon, um

[00:08:42] Um is basically a real estate game based on real world

[00:08:46] We're starting with manhattan new york

[00:08:48] we're taking uh

[00:08:50] Thousands of buildings in real world buildings in manhattan and turning them into nft cards

[00:08:56] So we're actually painting kind of like a card with graphics of that represents the real world building in an address

[00:09:02] There is only one of each and as I mentioned there are nfts

[00:09:06] And there is a gameplay here of rolling dice. You can raid other people's building visit them

[00:09:12] Uh steal from them

[00:09:15] You gain

[00:09:16] Virtual coins you utilize them in order to upgrade your portfolio

[00:09:20] By abrogating this portfolio. You are starting to accumulate rewards

[00:09:26] In the future one can understand realize that probably there is going to be a potential for a token here as well

[00:09:31] um

[00:09:35] And and and there are different iterations that you can go on from here in the game

[00:09:39] You can be a renter which means you don't need to buy a building in order to play the game

[00:09:44] You're literally playing in buildings owned by other players

[00:09:48] And you're sharing from your in-game rewards revenue

[00:09:53] That's how you're paying for rent

[00:09:55] Uh, and that's a driving factor for an or me

[00:09:59] To start getting into the crypto side of things. Hold on. Why do I have a landlord here?

[00:10:04] Why i'm sharing my game profits with someone?

[00:10:07] Okay, welcome you can go on and buy a building by yourself, uh and and become an owner and then build yourself out to become a landlord

[00:10:15] Um, or as I mentioned you can just come and buy many many buildings and own a portfolio

[00:10:21] So that was the general idea and the vision

[00:10:25] um, we raised money from uh, two venture capital firms, the besimer and framework was two years ago

[00:10:32] Um, but this is this is where we kind of like some twists and changes to the uh in the plans came came into fruition

[00:10:41] Uh, there is a huge barrier in kind of or obstacle in kind of creating a mobile web tree game

[00:10:48] um

[00:10:50] There are two names for it. Uh two words can define it one is apple and the other one is google

[00:10:58] basically the

[00:10:59] The duopoly of these two companies over the app stores and their policies in the app stores

[00:11:05] Are really really not friendly to crypto in general and and let's call it web three gaming in particular

[00:11:13] Uh in such level that kind of like we felt that kind of it's just a no-go

[00:11:18] uh to build an an app

[00:11:22] A game a mobile web three game that will run on the app stores

[00:11:27] And that led us

[00:11:29] To go through a path that nobody almost ever taken and taken

[00:11:35] which is

[00:11:37] Building all of the game that I just described to you as a pwa

[00:11:42] Uh, so what's a pwa for uh, the audience members here? Um

[00:11:48] Pwa stands for progressive web apps

[00:11:51] Um, it's basically a standard that was pushed from all of the major browsers out there for

[00:11:57] Over a decade already even more

[00:12:00] um

[00:12:02] And and it's a standard that allows basically even a website or an html app

[00:12:09] to run as an app

[00:12:12] so the make the user experience

[00:12:15] Feels like it to feel like an app and not like something that you're opening up in your mobile browser or in your desktop browser

[00:12:23] In that uh in that sense

[00:12:26] Google and android adopted it immediately. They're very friendly to this microsoft as well mozilla as well

[00:12:33] guess who's less, uh friendly to this

[00:12:36] Apple but but but despite being behind they are indeed investing in this so

[00:12:43] This is an existing standard your your uh for the listeners here can go and check it kind of like basically in safari

[00:12:51] In the share menu

[00:12:53] You have their safe to home screen and in android you have a similar thing like that

[00:12:58] Most of the websites don't support it. So you just have an icon added to your home screen on the mobile device

[00:13:04] but if you built an app for this

[00:13:07] then

[00:13:09] Once you tap on this icon, it opens the app full screen not in the browser and the experience is

[00:13:17] like of a mobile app

[00:13:19] so

[00:13:21] We actually went and built up an app like this

[00:13:24] Started driving traffic early on to test our vertices that

[00:13:30] We can bring people to install a pwa and play in that

[00:13:35] Uh once we realized that we can do it, uh, that's when we went

[00:13:40] What we call for the kill and add into adding all of the web3 elements

[00:13:44] to this and

[00:13:46] That's the next big launch version that will happen early in june. So where?

[00:13:51] People will be able to trade buildings, which are nfts peer-to-peer. Uh, they will be able to buy a building with

[00:13:59] Fiat while the seller gets paid with usdc

[00:14:03] And the building is an nft and it moves from embedded non-custodial wallets inside the game

[00:14:09] So it's a cool experience going to have that kind of like allows

[00:14:13] normies

[00:14:14] To collide with djens under the same playing field and hopefully that we will be turning

[00:14:21] These normies into djens by themselves, right? Um

[00:14:24] Our marketing for the public general public wasn't a web3 at all

[00:14:29] was um

[00:14:31] Much more things like monopoly but for real, uh where people want to come and trade buildings

[00:14:36] But we're not using the words nft crypto tokens non-custodial wallets

[00:14:41] Whatever, uh for the general public

[00:14:44] Uh, the djens obviously are we're marketing to them differently in in their in their own world

[00:14:51] And and so the vision is kind of like making city first taken the best game out there

[00:14:56] um

[00:14:58] Uh on board millions of normies into web3

[00:15:03] And down the road we can utilize our platform

[00:15:07] to launch

[00:15:08] other titles either owned and operated by us or by other

[00:15:13] uh web3

[00:15:14] gaming companies

[00:15:17] Excellent so I want us to clarify the game that we're talking about is city versus tycoon

[00:15:22] Exactly, you can can go to cityprice tycoon.com

[00:15:26] Um, you'll see the pre-launch version right now and in a few weeks you'll have the full version

[00:15:35] We are also minting the genesis collection, uh soon

[00:15:40] Uh, so you can stay tuned as well. I like go to our twitter page which again is city versus tycoon as well

[00:15:48] um

[00:15:51] Um in twitter, uh, or you can go to our website cityversityccoon.com

[00:15:55] And go to our socials from there and you can kind of like get notified of the exact date of the the mint

[00:16:02] And get more data

[00:16:03] what the mean

[00:16:05] includes in it

[00:16:07] Very cool. So back in 2002

[00:16:10] I played this game

[00:16:12] It was called roller coaster

[00:16:15] tycoon

[00:16:16] four

[00:16:17] And I tell you I would I would start in the morning

[00:16:22] And before you know it

[00:16:24] 20 hours went by

[00:16:27] You know and i'm like

[00:16:29] I was turning I was turning from a normie into a degen at that time. I just didn't know it right?

[00:16:35] Um, yeah, but I guess I gotta eat now, but then the restaurants were closed and I was like, oh boy

[00:16:40] um

[00:16:41] so

[00:16:42] You're looking to transition normies

[00:16:45] Into degens, right?

[00:16:48] How are you going to achieve that transformation? Um, and why would we I mean

[00:16:54] Do you see a world of degens?

[00:16:56] Playing your game or how do you make how do you make that sweat? How do you help them get there?

[00:17:01] Yeah, so for the degens, why would the degen play our

[00:17:05] Our game. I think that's actually an easier answer a question to answer, right?

[00:17:10] uh

[00:17:13] We're not shying away that kind of like

[00:17:15] The benefit of a web 3 game is the potential financial upside

[00:17:21] For a player and the emphasis is on the potential. It cannot be something that is promised to everyone. So

[00:17:28] That's where we are shining away from the play to earn

[00:17:32] mechanism

[00:17:34] um

[00:17:36] I think that it's building the wrong

[00:17:38] Expectations it can't be that any player all everybody here is going to to earn it just can't that's not sustainable, right?

[00:17:46] uh, but on the other end

[00:17:49] The ownership aspect opens up the possibility the hustle of trading your assets

[00:17:55] Whether they are nfts or fungible tokens, right?

[00:18:00] It's the same mechanism. Um, so

[00:18:02] So

[00:18:04] We we want to inform we want we want to uh,

[00:18:07] Enable this and kind of like it's built in into the game trading buildings a building is a tool

[00:18:14] To generate gain income and it's a tradable asset by itself

[00:18:18] um

[00:18:19] And so gone so will be to other

[00:18:23] future unlocks of

[00:18:25] tokens and things like that so for the degens, I think that it's kind of like

[00:18:30] It's more clear they will they will see the metrics immediately. They are already seeing it before the game is ready

[00:18:37] They they are all automatically assuming

[00:18:40] What's what are the features that are we're going to have in our launch version?

[00:18:44] And many of them are correct about this

[00:18:47] So it's very intuitive for them by the idea of renting buildings buying buildings owning a portfolio of buildings

[00:18:53] All of this stuff for them makes perfect sense

[00:18:57] The norm is I think is where the challenge comes

[00:19:00] And we are insisting on in our game having the two collide, right?

[00:19:05] So

[00:19:06] We didn't want to have a game that is accessible only for normies and sorry for degens

[00:19:11] And obviously that we didn't want to make a game only for normies because that's web 2 and we don't want to be there

[00:19:17] So from our point of view how we're converting normies one is start from the top of the funnel of the

[00:19:24] Of the marketing side

[00:19:26] We're not marketing to them a web 3 game

[00:19:30] In the future probably

[00:19:33] The general point of view of crypto would be better but for now

[00:19:40] For the normies if you are coming to them with hey, here is a crypto game a web 3 game

[00:19:47] whatever

[00:19:49] Blockchain

[00:19:50] lingo word they they are kind of like

[00:19:54] They

[00:19:55] They think it's a scam and they're out

[00:19:58] We can all argue that shouldn't be the case. It doesn't really matter. That's the case for now

[00:20:03] We'll change in the future, but not today

[00:20:06] so

[00:20:07] but on the other end we don't want to market it as uh as a web 2 game because

[00:20:13] It's not smart from our end

[00:20:14] So as I mentioned in our game and I recommend it for all of the other web 3 games

[00:20:19] We are recommending the you know

[00:20:22] Part of the tradable assets in our case

[00:20:24] It's the buildings the dream of owning a building in manhattan or dubai later on or paris and you know

[00:20:31] Playing this pretend game, but there is real money to be made here right kind of like it's yours

[00:20:36] And if you sell it the money that you make is real money

[00:20:40] I can't promise that you'll be able to find

[00:20:43] The right buyer the right price that's up to you. But

[00:20:47] But you can do it right so that's the dream that's driving the web 2 people into the game

[00:20:54] What we're counting on is that all of the experience that we've been doing is so seamless

[00:20:59] That they have no idea

[00:21:01] That they're playing a web 3 game

[00:21:04] And slowly but surely

[00:21:06] Kind of like, you know the the flywheels are working on them. So for example

[00:21:11] You're a web 2 player

[00:21:13] You just sign up to the game with either your apple id facebook email

[00:21:18] Or your biometrics and you have a non-custodial wallet embedded into the game. You have no idea that this happened by the way

[00:21:24] You just see a game wallet. You have no idea that you have

[00:21:28] A crypt kind of like a wallet address that you can send

[00:21:31] Into and out of it kind of like assets and you and you're the only one who can control it

[00:21:36] Right, we have no access to the funds inside

[00:21:39] And you start playing the game and the buildings are their number their prices are nominated in dollars

[00:21:46] You can buy them with apple pay

[00:21:48] or credit card

[00:21:50] Uh fiat, so you don't need to have a usdc in your disposal the seller though

[00:21:55] He already went through the metrics right kind of like is he knows that this building is an nft

[00:22:00] And he's going to be paid with usdc

[00:22:03] uh, so

[00:22:06] We are assuming that the web 2 whales will start accumulating buildings by themselves in order to progress faster in the game

[00:22:14] They would because they would like to kind of like get rid of the landlord as well

[00:22:19] Some of them would like to become a landlord as well

[00:22:22] And and the success stories will start coming up people will start selling buildings making money as well

[00:22:27] That's where they will realize. Okay, how do I cash this out? Oh you have a you have a wallet

[00:22:32] You have usdc here

[00:22:34] That's how you turn it into fiat if you want or you can use it to buy other stuff here

[00:22:40] and guess what

[00:22:42] Did you realize that this and this thing these are

[00:22:45] Tokens as well that have utility in the game and you can also trade them

[00:22:50] and that's how kind of like normies would

[00:22:54] slowly slowly become

[00:22:57] turning to digits

[00:22:59] And many won't by the way many will churn out and we'll figure out that they don't like the game

[00:23:04] Or whatever other reason and that's okay

[00:23:08] Then that's that's part of the of the cycle

[00:23:12] It's not your only game though, right? You have um, you have the city verse game

[00:23:16] Then you have a couple others that are in the pipe, right?

[00:23:19] One's mini life treasure drive

[00:23:22] How do they help?

[00:23:25] Well

[00:23:26] And it can be out of partner games as well so you can leverage your game assets in game number one

[00:23:35] And go to playing game number two three four five all accessible under the same pwa

[00:23:42] Once they are ready once they're ready. They're not ready enough don't expect it now

[00:23:49] They just sound interesting. Um, so

[00:23:52] um

[00:23:53] You talked about before you said

[00:23:56] Um that there's obstacles, right?

[00:23:59] One of the obstacles is apple

[00:24:02] You know and policies their policies are not friendly. What are some of their unfriendly policies?

[00:24:09] Yeah, it's and it's a hot topic some people want to agree with that. Uh, let's not but people should do their own research. Um

[00:24:20] Generally and i'm going to keep it very high level right because

[00:24:24] Because we can have hours only of kind of like reviewing apple's policies

[00:24:30] The nation called that is called apple, um, but

[00:24:35] Basically there's a lot of litigation around this right kind of like so it shouldn't come as surprise

[00:24:40] But maybe we'll come to surprise to many of the listeners here

[00:24:44] Um apple and it same goes to google with android right with the play store

[00:24:48] But kind of like let's focus on apple for a second

[00:24:51] Um when you promote an app inside the app store generally speaking

[00:24:57] And again, i'm putting it in very broad strike. So there are there are exemptions but generally speaking

[00:25:03] The only payment, um

[00:25:06] The only allowed payment

[00:25:08] Provider system tool whatever is the apple in-app purchase system

[00:25:15] So if you're if you're a game and you want to sell say additional dice rolls in your game you say in our game

[00:25:23] um

[00:25:26] You the default is that you should be using apples in a purchase system

[00:25:31] so the thing that all of us

[00:25:34] Learned to use and love so most of just tapping once and you and leveraging the credit card that is stored already

[00:25:42] in the apple device

[00:25:43] Uh, that's what you're forced to use. You're not allowed as the game provider to drive

[00:25:49] To provide alternative payment systems

[00:25:52] That's the payment system that you are forced to use and you're forced to

[00:25:58] Pay apple a cut of 30 out of this transaction

[00:26:03] uh now

[00:26:05] To be honest kind of the 30 part is is painful, but I don't want to focus on that

[00:26:11] Only

[00:26:12] Is must it's just that kind of like if we want to do an on-chain transaction

[00:26:17] We can't really use

[00:26:19] Apple or any other person like that kind of like we need to either use

[00:26:23] Crypto to crypto aka an on-chain transaction. So say that you come to our game and we want you to purchase a building

[00:26:30] from me

[00:26:31] Um, and you have usdc

[00:26:34] Um, then it's an on-chain transaction you you'll pay me

[00:26:38] You'll transfer your usdc to me and the building which is an nft will transfer to you

[00:26:44] This is a use a use case, right? That is basically us offering an alternative payment system where you are not using apple's

[00:26:51] Payment system and this is not permitted

[00:26:54] permitted

[00:26:56] based on the app store rules

[00:26:58] um

[00:27:00] Now there are dozens of other ones but we can just stop here. That's enough by itself

[00:27:07] Now one can say hold on you said that you're offering the fiat to crypto. That's right. I'm using a provider

[00:27:14] That is accepting and is licensed to accept fiat payments on one end and send usdc to the other party

[00:27:22] right

[00:27:23] um

[00:27:25] But they they would be qualified as an alternative payment provider as well

[00:27:29] If I was to do it on the app store, they wouldn't allow it as well

[00:27:34] Um, and many many of other policies like this

[00:27:39] There's been tons and tons of litigation around that in europe and in the us

[00:27:45] Uh trust apple to keep things closed

[00:27:49] There's going to be word peace before they will receive their power around that. I don't

[00:27:54] I don't think that that's going to change really soon

[00:27:58] um

[00:27:58] So so that's the main obstacle

[00:28:04] I didn't realize they forced it in the in-app. Um purchases like that. Wow, that's kind of yeah

[00:28:12] Many of your listeners probably and you may be encounter this, uh, i'll just show you how strong it is, right?

[00:28:18] We just people take it for granted

[00:28:20] You've been browsing probably your amazon app and realized oh my god, there is a book that I want to buy

[00:28:27] And I want to buy it in the form of a kindle kind of a kindle book and not a physical book

[00:28:32] And did you notice that when you search for this book in the amazon app

[00:28:37] On apple there is there are no links that allow you to purchase the kindle book

[00:28:43] You can't

[00:28:44] You can't

[00:28:46] Exactly because of this policy because apple

[00:28:49] Wanted to force

[00:28:51] Amazon this is a big digital purchase. That's not a physical purchase, right?

[00:28:56] That's a digital purchase purchasing a kindle book is a digital purchase, right?

[00:29:01] So apple was forcing amazon. Hey, give me a cut of 30 percent

[00:29:05] Of every cell of a kindle book and amazon told them go screw yourself. They just didn't offer it

[00:29:12] In the app the way that you should be purchasing a kindle book

[00:29:17] Uh on your ios device is browsing in safari in the browser or on chrome

[00:29:24] to add to amazon.com

[00:29:27] And there is where you can buy because you're outside of the app store

[00:29:35] Is that now is that why no one buys my books?

[00:29:38] Yeah, I don't know maybe maybe

[00:29:44] It's kind of like even a kind of like a mega mega powerful corporate like amazon can't handle this

[00:29:54] Wow, um

[00:29:57] interesting

[00:29:58] Interesting interesting. So

[00:30:00] I want to find out because you have a different model here

[00:30:03] You know the current status of play to earn and play to own gaming in the crypto sector

[00:30:08] And what additional challenges must be overcome to you know

[00:30:12] To to get where you think we should be

[00:30:15] in the long run

[00:30:17] Um

[00:30:20] Well, I think what we're doing is is is exactly that

[00:30:23] um

[00:30:25] We need to make it more accessible for

[00:30:28] The relevant masses let's call it like that kind of the the people that

[00:30:33] have a chance to kind of like get hooked

[00:30:37] to the um

[00:30:39] To the crypto world in the right way

[00:30:41] Um, and and accessibility is the key word here. I think there should be significantly more mobile games

[00:30:49] Uh out there and in order to have a mobile game you'll need to bypass the app store. Um, uh challenges

[00:30:56] Uh, so I think that what we are doing is is the key element for this

[00:31:01] Awesome awesome. Yeah, i'm trying to think of back in the roller coaster tycoon day that I played, you know, there was a cheat code

[00:31:08] Um, it was if you name your if you name your park attendees john d rockefeller

[00:31:14] You got you get like a million dollars or ten a hundred thousand dollars a piece

[00:31:19] So I would name them all john d rockefeller and then I would build these massive roller coasters, right?

[00:31:25] Uh, yeah, is there good

[00:31:27] Is there going to be cheat code opportunity for your participants or you don't want to disclose that?

[00:31:31] I don't want to disclose it but kind of keep in mind

[00:31:36] Uh a challenge that gaming in general has but web 3 gaming as

[00:31:42] Significant it kind of like it's kind of like it's the same challenge on steroids

[00:31:45] our bots right kind of like they're

[00:31:49] so

[00:31:50] the the that's going to happen and we will

[00:31:53] We will be fighting it like all of the other games as well. Um, um, so

[00:32:01] Yeah, we will we will probably try to put some easter eggs and cheat codes in the game but kind of like we should be

[00:32:09] Uh very uh secretive about it and very fair about it

[00:32:12] The idea is that kind of like it should be fun

[00:32:15] The the main goal that we have is

[00:32:17] It should be

[00:32:19] fun

[00:32:20] fun fun

[00:32:22] and yes, there are opportunities there are uh, uh opportunities for people to to to

[00:32:28] you know to make something but

[00:32:31] um

[00:32:32] But there is a balance act here, right? I don't we don't want

[00:32:36] Stressed out people in our environment. That shouldn't be the case. Um, it should be

[00:32:43] Fun, it should be fun that the trading element

[00:32:46] And should add emotion stickiness

[00:32:50] To the to the to your experience as a participant should make it more

[00:32:55] fun not a stressful event not uh

[00:32:59] Not uh, not it's not work

[00:33:02] It shouldn't be work. It should be fun

[00:33:06] Fun and ethical. I love it. That sounds great

[00:33:10] Yep, exactly

[00:33:12] So I want to thank you very much for talking to me today

[00:33:15] I I enjoyed this. I was looking forward to the full version when it comes out

[00:33:20] Uh, you can probably count on me to play it so

[00:33:24] I'm counting we're counting you can find as I mentioned in cityversitykun.com

[00:33:30] That's where you can play with the pre-launch version that we have right now and early june with uh with the main launch version

[00:33:38] And and and you can go to our socials through this

[00:33:43] website, especially to our twitter page and um, that's where you can kind of like

[00:33:48] Get notified both about our about our upcoming mint and uh the game launch

[00:33:53] And if people want to find out more information about you, how can I do that?

[00:33:57] Um linkedin that's a good place to to to find me out. Uh, they can reach out to me in linkedin

[00:34:04] um

[00:34:05] Through twitter as well both places, uh, just search for my name

[00:34:09] Tomer paskal there aren't many out there like that or on play

[00:34:14] Well in the website as well cityversitykun.com there is a section about the entire team including myself

[00:34:20] Uh, we'd love to hear from everybody

[00:34:23] Awesome. Thank you very much for your time today. Thank you for your time. It was pleasure

[00:34:29] Bye bye