Sam Mudie, Co-founder and CEO of Savea, has worked in the wine investment industry since 2012, including 9 years at Cult Wines, the world’s largest specialist advisor with USD 360m assets under management. He founded Cult Wines Singapore office, managed the business across Southeast Asia and was on the Investment Committee.
[00:00:02] Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Crypto Hipster Podcast. This is your host, Jamil Hasan, the Crypto Hipster, where I interview founders, entrepreneurs, executives, thought leaders, amazing people all over the world of crypto and blockchain. And today I have another amazing guest. I have the CEO and founder of Savia. His name is Sam Mudie. Sam, welcome to the show. Sam Mudie, Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: Good morning, Jamil. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:29] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: You're welcome. It's a pleasure to have you here and I'm looking forward to this interview. So let's kick things off and ask you first. The first question I ask everybody is, and I get amazing answers, is what is your background and is a logical background for what you're doing now?
[00:00:44] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: My background is in wine investment. So I've got 14 years experience looking after high net worths, going through family offices, private banks, the wealth management space.
[00:00:59] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: But very specifically dealing in fine wine investment. So I turned what was initially a passion of mine, which is collecting and drinking fine wine into a lucrative and very, very interesting career. It's put me in contact with some absolutely amazing people that I otherwise wouldn't have done and some absolutely amazing wines that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to have access to.
[00:01:22] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. I used to drink wine in my 20s, but it liked me a little bit more too much. So I want to find out, you know, we might get into that wine a little bit later as far as your investment perspective.
[00:01:42] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: But as far as Savia, you know, what's that all about? And what is your vision for creating regulated investment, I guess, processes and processes? Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: Yeah. So Savia is a fintech company. We are tokenizing high value physical real world assets, our WAs, and then creating regulated scalable investment products on the Ethereum network.
[00:02:10] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: Our gateway product is called Savia Wine, and it tracks the price of the benchmark wine investment index, which has been around for nearly 25 years, and is 100% backed by physical reserves. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So we've got a really a two stage tokenization framework, which firstly legally links digital assets, which in this case are NFTs with the physical asset, the wine.
[00:02:40] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: NFTs are wrapped in a smart contract, and then the shares are distributed as ERC20 tokens. So it's a little bit like having an ETF on chain that's backed by physical assets. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: And to our knowledge, no one has managed to accomplish that yet, and certainly not in a legally compliant manner.
[00:03:02] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: Awesome. Yeah, I haven't seen it yet. You know, I haven't seen, actually, I haven't seen it, I haven't interviewed anybody from the wine industry before, and I haven't seen your, that set up. So it's interesting.
[00:03:17] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So they call it a passion class of assets, right? Why is investing in this passion class ideal for those seeking, you know, people think crypto is risky and high risk, but seeking steady growth and risk diversification?
[00:03:33] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: Yeah. There's maybe two parts to this. One is the pure investment side of it, the investment profile that passion assets can offer. And let's maybe explain what we consider a passion asset to be. It can be anything that incites passion.
[00:03:54] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: Typically, this is going to be watches, wine, whiskey, fine art, classic cars. You can brawn it out to violins, to stamp collections, to, you know, classics, sports memorabilia, really anything that not only drives a passion, but has some sort of secondary market value and a track record for capital appreciation.
[00:04:19] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So really, if you're going to find the most marketable investments in that space, it's going to be the first few I mentioned, wine, watches, whiskey, art, cars. Those are the biggest markets, most liquid, highest volume and value traded. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So firstly, the investment profile. These are markets for capital preservation rather than normally aggressive capital growth.
[00:04:46] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So these are markets where you would invest in them when you've probably already made a bit of money and you now want a safe way to hold on to it and beat inflation. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So with wine specifically, let's kind of focus on wine. Over the last 20 plus years, the benchmark index that we track has returned an average annualized 7%.
[00:05:11] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: If you were to hold it for a longer timeframe, let's say three to five years, the average is actually more like eight to 9%. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So a pretty reasonable rate of return in a traditional market. Let's put aside all crypto assets for the time being. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: But really importantly, it's got super low volatility. It's a less than 5% average annual volatility, which means it's very stable and almost no correlation.
[00:05:40] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So it's got 0.1 correlation to a basket of global equities, which would be known as negligible to non-existent correlation. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So it's a very strong diversification asset. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So that's one reason for having these passion assets in your portfolio. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: But there are really quite a few investments that you can get a similar profile to that in. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: And this is where the passion part comes into it.
[00:06:05] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: I've worked for a very long time with high net worth individuals whose shift over years with success, with age, with having children and growing businesses, Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: their shift comes from a priority over making more money and how they spend their money on how they spend their time and things that are experiential.
[00:06:26] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So investing your money in bonds, stocks, great, but it's not something you're going to turn to your neighbor at the dinner table and have a really interesting conversation about your short position on Tesla. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: If you've invested in wine or watches or whiskey, that is a really interesting talking point, whether you're at the start of the journey or 10, 20, 30 years deep.
[00:06:50] Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: It's something that you can add a lot of value to your life and I think just find like a lot of common interest with really interesting people. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: So that is also a very big part of this sort of passion asset sector. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: I'm going to get into the yield in a little bit. I do want to talk about that because I think I want to talk about the wealth, the high net worth first, go down that avenue, and then I want to come back to the yield part.
[00:07:16] So you make it easier really for high net worth individuals, for wealthy people and family offices, right, to invest confidently in the wine, the art, the collectibles. Sam Mudie, Ph.D.: How do you do that? How do you get them on board to say you want to shift some people from crypto to the safer assets? How do you get them on board to be part of what you do?
[00:07:39] Dr. Justin Marchegiani, Ph.D.: Okay, so we probably need to separate out two potential target markets who could be interested in this product. One is the traditional investor. They are not crypto savvy. They don't know what blockchain is. They may never be, but they have a diverse portfolio of traditional assets.
[00:08:01] In the current market, there are a few wine investment products, but they're not particularly accessible. So you definitely are not going to be able to be a retail investor, not even really what we in the UK call a mass affluent investor. I don't know if you use the same categorization in the US, but let's say someone who's investing typically $25,000 to $50,000 over the course of a couple of years.
[00:08:30] The reason it's not accessible to them is access to information, access to the relationships, and also just having the minimum amount of capital to really invest in these markets. Obviously, art, unless you're buying a fractional art investment, you can't invest in art. Even wine, to get a sufficiently diversified portfolio that's going to at least track the market, you need to be investing $50,000, maybe even $100,000. It's much like a passive ETF.
[00:09:00] If you're trying to proactively beat the market yourself and stock pick, more often than not, you won't. Same sort of thing with wine. So it's inaccessible to the smaller end of the market, but currently it's actually not scalable enough for the upper end. The family offices, certainly not the institutions.
[00:09:20] Family offices, let's take as an example, aren't going to put the time and effort into it if they can't deploy efficiently at least $5 million, really. Like you'll find that a rare one that will be interested in a million. In the current wine investment models, like say a company that I worked for for 10 years, you open up a relationship with them.
[00:09:44] You've got your one relationship manager, you're limited to the Monday to Friday within the working hours in their jurisdiction. So if they're in a different country, narrows your window. They buy a portfolio that is yours and yours only, which is on one hand really cool because you are the only person earning this collection of wines. And if you're super interested and invested in that process, then that kind of is a good reason to be doing it.
[00:10:11] But if you wanted to do that route and deploy $5 million, it will take them six months, maybe even a year to do, which for a family office that's trying to replicate this with several asset classes is way too long. It takes way too long. The cost of carry, so the cost of managing it that way is also high because it's super labor intensive.
[00:10:35] You've got loads of people involved because a single company is maybe managing two, 3,000 individual portfolios. So you might pay 3% a year to cover the cost of storage, insurance and management. And when it comes to selling, you're probably paying five to maybe 10% to sell because again, it involves a lot of people in very archaic traditional ecosystems or infrastructure to do it. Big thing then is also regulation.
[00:11:05] WINE investment in its most basic sense, i.e. buying a case of wine, storing it and selling it, is not regulated, which is attractive for a lot of people. But for a family office where they've kind of got rules they have to follow, it's a little bit like a VC going through an investment deck. They've got five things, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Okay, next stage. If a family office sees you're unregulated, straight away, sorry guys, however good it looks, we just can't do it.
[00:11:32] So in the current state, wine investment vehicles serve that middle bracket quite nicely. The upper mass affluent, the high net worth, but it's not accessible enough for the bottom. It's not scalable enough for the top. Cost of carry, I mentioned, is currently high. And liquidity is low.
[00:11:57] If you own a portfolio of wines yourself and you want to sell it, get your cash back, you're really limited to doing that via the company that you bought it from, which might take six months, might take 12 months. And you're competing with every other investor who's also wanting to sell their wines and get some cash back. And everyone's got their own portfolio. So there's a lot of friction and tension. It's a lot of competition.
[00:12:28] So to go back to really the birth of Savia, in 2020, I met Lee, who's my cornerstone investor. He's my co-founder. He is a serial entrepreneur. He's launched a dozen businesses, successfully IPO'd and exited two. The most recent one was PayDee, which is a buy now, pay later company in Japan.
[00:12:54] And he sold that in 2021 to PayPal for $2.7 billion. While he was going through the exit of this business, he and I were getting to know each other. Initially, he was going to be a client. And actually, pretty quickly, he said, I'm more interested in you as an individual and investing in you rather than investing in wine in its current sense. So let's talk around that.
[00:13:21] He's been interested in blockchain and invested in blockchain since 2012 or crypto, at least since 2012. I've been investing since 2016, 2017. And over the years, I've gone from very vanilla buying the top 10 coins to trying to leverage. Bad decision. Trying to short-term trade. Bad decision. You know, going into some crazy DeFi rabbit holes. Bad decision. Bad decision.
[00:13:49] But, oh, and, you know, add to it meme coins and NFTs. I've done a lot. But while most of those things didn't work for me financially, every single time I learned about the product and the psychology of it. Anyway, that's a tangent which we could come back to. But very quickly, Lee and I realized that the inefficiencies that exist in the current wine investment world can be certainly reduced, if not removed, by different applications of blockchain.
[00:14:17] So by finding a way to take this physical value, in this case, wine, which you can't really do anything with until you sell it. So potentially it's stored for 10 years and there's no value in it until you can crystallize it, until you sell it. By taking that physical value on chain in a legally enforceable way, and this is really important. We have to come back to this.
[00:14:45] You make it as efficient, as effective to create an investment product as, you know, USDC. So once you have that, we then take it into this, what is akin to a collective investment scheme. You know, behaves in the same sort of way. So you then make the portfolio of digital assets. Each one is backed by a physical asset. But you've just got one product. It's this single portfolio of wine.
[00:15:11] It tracks the benchmark index and everyone buys shares or tokens in that. And then you get that regulated. Again, we need to come back to the legal and regulation side of things because this is really, really innovative and important. So by doing this, you can offer the same index performance for someone investing $100 as if they were investing a million dollars.
[00:15:40] And because we're only needing to scale one collection instead of 2,000 competing collections, we can deploy large sums of capital, 1 million, 5 million, 10 million, within a fraction of the time. We're still not talking like overnight deployment of 5 million, but let's say a month instead of a year. Far, far better. Makes it much, much more interesting and appealing for that top end of the market.
[00:16:06] By using smart contracts to automate share, we're not talking about shares, we're talking about token distribution, invoicing, receipts. By putting everything on chain for the security, for the auditing, we can reduce our operations team from 10 down to 1 or 2. And by taking on chain, we don't need to change ownership of physical assets, which involves not only resources in house, but it involves people in a warehouse.
[00:16:36] Again, this comes back to the really archaic, old, outdated systems in the wine market. So we're using tokenization, we're using smart contracts, solves accessibility. The smart contracts automating all of our operations, reduces our manpower, reduces our costs, pass the cost savings on to customers. And what I think is super, super cool is on the liquidity side of things.
[00:17:04] Because where before, whether you're buying a collection of wines with the kind of company I described, or maybe you're buying shares in a traditional wine fund, liquidity only comes from that entity you invested with.
[00:17:20] By securely representing this as an ERC-20 token, becomes interchangeable, exchangeable, interoperable with the rest of the, obviously, Ethereum ecosystem, but with a bit of bridging with the whole crypto ecosystem, which is borderless. It's 24-7, 365 days. It doesn't really distinguish or discriminate, you know, on where you're based.
[00:17:45] At least someone in Africa can have, or someone in Kenya can have as easy access as someone in New Zealand or the UK or the US. The caveat to that is within the constraints of regulation, of course. And that is, that's amazing. Like that change in liquidity is vastly, vastly improved.
[00:18:04] And that affects equally the smaller retail investor as much as it does the family offices, ultra high net worths, even institutional investors, possibly. So, I mean, get this straight. Let me see how I understand the full picture. You got this middle, you got this middle layer. And it's currently unregulated. You're creating regulation. You bring liquidity through the ERC-20 tokens.
[00:18:31] You're fractionalizing to be able to enable the upper and lower bands, be able to invest in it. You said in the beginning that you also are creating the NFTs. So, the NFTs role in this is the fractionalization of the wine and the ownership of the wine or portion of the wine. How does the NFT work? I'm pleased you asked that.
[00:19:05] More often than not, in fact, always, when I hear NFTs or tokenization and wine in the same sentence, it's either a company has tried to fractionalize a case of wine, which to me is pointless. Like a case of wine that costs maybe $2,000, $3,000 doesn't need to be fractionalized. It makes selling it considerably harder.
[00:19:31] You know, you can pick up the phone and sell that 100 times over. Why try and sell it to 100 people in much smaller chunks? Or it's a company is minting an NFT, representing ownership of a case of wine, and then they sell that NFT instead of selling the case of wine. I've been selling wine for a really long time. It's very difficult.
[00:19:57] You need to have a relationship with someone, particularly if it's high value, if it's investment grade. There's a massive process in convincing someone why to invest in one particular wine over the 300,000 others available. Now do that, but add a layer of blockchain technology to it. So instead of convincing them why they need to buy that particular case of Lafitte 2005, tell them how crypto technology works, how to open a MetaMask wallet, how to on-ramp, how to transact.
[00:20:25] It's like, guys, you're forcing a solution on a problem that is not there. Like that is terrible user experience. And that's as far as they go. Another problem with that is they're minting a token, but it's not a legally linked asset. It's a duplicate asset. Owning the NFT has got no legal protection in any jurisdiction that you own it. There's nothing stopping the company keeping your wines.
[00:20:54] Because I'll tell you, if you own the NFT and that company is in possession of your wines, they own your wine. Like, it's not like there are ways to minimize and mitigate that risk, but that is kind of how it is. And if it all goes wrong, you could be in trouble. Another angle from that is if you are in physical possession of your wine and you own the NFT,
[00:21:23] there's nothing stopping you from selling the NFT and drinking the case of wine. There's no link between those two assets. So what we've done is we work with a tokenization partner called DSAT. That's the Decentralized Storage and Asset Tokenization Network. DSAT, much easier. Who act as custodians of the physical wines. In fact, they act as owners of the physical wines.
[00:21:52] They're responsible for the professional storage. They're responsible for the full insurance to replacement value. They tokenize the wine and we have the token. Now, the token does not make us the owners of the wines. It acts like a perpetual call option. so all it means is we are the only people with the legal right to redeem one for the other
[00:22:20] so it it means that no two bodies have the two assets in the same time they're they're guarded by um essentially a trust structure so they can't do anything with the wines without drastically breaking the law um there there isn't even really a company it's a it's a sort of it's a self-managed product and protocol so their job is purely receive wines tokenize it and when we need
[00:22:48] it back we give them the nft they burn the nft we get the physical wine and embedded within this nft and this is a this is a an erc standard that has been approved and is now in use is a legal contract that enforces that so it's not just an nft that claims to be ownership of another thing no there is a legal contract that's approved that's you know the documents for the tokens are in uh uk based i
[00:23:16] believe um so that brings the physical value securely and legally on chain that's a that's a really really important part which i'm sort i'm sometimes i feel like i'm banging my head against the wall when i see another company minting tokens and saying that it represents wine and you're like it's not it guys yeah yeah so it's i want to get into what you said you want to talk about now
[00:23:45] the legal part you know you are actually taking this unstructured you know uh not illegal it's not an illegal market it's um one without legal you know frameworks you are taking a legal framework through the nft and through other measures and you're implementing that legal framework into this into this wild west of you know i call it wild west wild west of of wine um so how how like
[00:24:14] how are you going to be able to accomplish that or how are you accomplishing it i mean how like how how can you do it so other people can do the same thing hopefully very nearly accomplished so um yeah firstly on the on the current wine investment market it's unregulated but there's absolutely nothing you know illegal or shady about it it's just you are just buying wine you know you
[00:24:39] can't regulate a market where you're just buying wine or watches or whiskey because there's nothing stopping you from buying it at any price or selling it at any price you don't need investor protection um but firstly that's not sufficient for the upper end of the investment market um certainly is not investment it's not institutional grade and you know we wanted to
[00:25:04] to very comfortably and competently stand up on stage at financial times digital asset summit as i did last week and say this is legally an investment product where we have our token issuance in x jurisdiction i don't think i can actually currently say where it is for the next few weeks um sam might tell me off um and we are compliant in uh y and z jurisdictions for promotion offer distribution
[00:25:34] no one else can no one else can currently say that um which gives us immense credibility so this comes back to when when i started savia three yeah over three years ago within the first couple of weeks we had to make a call were we going to go the way of most crypto projects or digital asset projects because there is a distinction and skirt around regulation for as long as the possible
[00:25:59] there was certainly something attractive about that i've always come from a um uh a kind of non-stop relentless sales background you know you've got a monthly target hit it reset so i like to move fast and uh something doesn't it doesn't need to be perfect it just needs to be you know go go iterate get better get better but we partly because of my you know my co-founder's background lee um he he's had
[00:26:28] several companies in the tech particularly fintech company um he was very pro the idea of regulation and what really sold it for me was regulations coming right for the crypto ecosystem to become mainstream for adoption to go beyond the dgens and the crypto natives um it needs to become more
[00:26:54] user-friendly and there needs to be better framework for protection because more traditional people and investors do expect some a little bit more level of protection and legal clarity even if it's not like full so we thought okay if we not only seek to get regulated but to be part of the conversation and
[00:27:17] shaping it that's a huge advantage because we get to shape it around us like we basically our product is the use case that it's structured around and everyone else has to fall in line with us not vice versa so the first two years of savvyer was spent on kind of product and tech fully stealth mode i went off the radar completely the last year in fact last 18 months has been purely working on regulation we could
[00:27:47] have launched a year and a half ago but we wanted to get regulated so initially we were in talks in singapore i was living in singapore for six years um that's where my one of my networks is very strong uh we were talking with the mas the monetary authority of singapore who are outwardly very dynamic very pro crypto very pro innovation and fintech um a lot like dubai they're doing a lot of work to pull
[00:28:15] talent and interest and innovators in which is really cool it's an amazing business environment singapore really really impressive um uh but mas uh it it kind of got 95 of where we needed to to be um but it wouldn't allow the final five percent of what we what was absolutely necessary for our token design and again i can't say what that is yet um but for us that was a deal breaker and we knew that
[00:28:44] we had time we knew that getting the right regulation was paramount so we we shopped around for the right jurisdiction we spoke to pvi to cayman islands to malta to dubai dubai we similarly progressed quite far we worked with the law firm we were speaking like we got right you know to the end of our application with vara and exactly the same comments came up interestingly both with dubai and singapore
[00:29:11] outwardly come and do business like we'll you know we'll regulate you come here um they actually both deferred to the uk both of them said what does the fca say if you get approved in fact they said if you get approval in any other jurisdiction come back to us and we'll rub a stamp it we just don't want to be the first ones to to take that chance which is it is interesting that they you know kind of deferred
[00:29:38] that way so anyway fast forward and we found our solution um i'm just just really trying to think whether i can say what it is yeah i think i can but not in much detail anyway it's just so we've got we've got our we're working on our token issuance in jersey have been since last august um which is again really progressive it's got a very pro status on tokenization had a had an established
[00:30:07] tokenization um kind of track um and yeah so we'll have our we hopefully have our consent to issue in jersey under the jfsc and we can then promote offer and distribute with compliance in the uk in eu now i hasten to add that does not mean we're regulated by the fca in the uk or by mica in eu but we are
[00:30:33] compliant to offer it which is which is which is which is important um there are still some you know caveats and exemptions to what we can do but it it gives us you know a very good runway to you know experiment and to on board and to to iterate and get feedback and kind of develop from there um so that's that's really really cool and yeah um i've been at three conferences in the last two weeks talking about our you know our legal innovation which has become you know has become a very big
[00:31:02] um part of our innovation and our solution um and you know sitting at dinner next to the head of digital assets for van eck and who are trying to tokenize etfs and described our solution um he's like that's that's really cool um you can you can do that with lots of other things right
[00:31:24] like yeah we can we can and hopefully we will so we we start we're starting with wine because it's a market i know best and certainly within the passion asset category it's the most applicable it's got the highest um volume and value traded on a regular basis so you know a top investment grade wine i mentioned lafitte rothschild 2005 earlier so let's stick with that is trading almost on a daily basis
[00:31:54] so you've got a pretty good idea of what the market price is unlike art which you know how do you value a piece of art it's there's a lot of you know it's more of an art than a science um wine is is much much easier to do and we've also got this benchmark index with 20 plus years of very good price data really nice area to work within um but it has a market cap so market cap is let's say 100
[00:32:22] 100 100 100 billion dollars of wine of investment grade wine that could be tokenized by 2030 not big but not absolutely massive so you've got the framework here the requisite for then doing the same with watches and art and classic cars and whiskey and rum whatever
[00:32:47] you know wherever the opportunity is best is it has to be stored securely by our tokenization partner um and that's really it because once it's in secure storage and with them and they can tokenize it into a digital asset we can be super creative in what sort of products we create with it
[00:33:09] so think you've got these index tracking wine portfolios watches whiskey fine art classic cars and these come with complications of course um you then fast forward a few years and you've got a single token that represents optimum exposure in each of these different asset classes so now you go back to the family offices who quite often if they are interested in wine they might be interested in
[00:33:38] watches probably interested in cars you know there's there's a lot of commonality uh but for them to effectively invest in all of those different asset classes takes a full team you've got to have a relationship with two or three different wine merchants an auction house two or three watch specialists it's a huge huge task um and this way you can go onto your metamask or go onto uniswap or you know one day hopefully something like coinbase and buy a single erc20 token as if you're buying usdc
[00:34:07] and bam in your wallet you've got exposure to all of those asset classes in one token that's like that's such a huge advancement in what is currently possible in investing in those assets i think that's incredible and of course go beyond that like what else can you do can you do oil on its way from singapore to the uk um corn in silos in argentina i know that there's already some examples of
[00:34:33] tokenization of commodities like that um pork belly like bull bearings i don't know anything you know there's is it the amount of physical assets around the world that for a period of time are just sitting there with value untapped this is a way to tap into it is huge huge market creation
[00:34:56] yeah i see the i see the market creation i've been thinking why speaking like uh like 30 or so industries that this could your your your model could apply to and work and the good thing about it is you know i mean we'll go back to yield you know um you can i could stake like something like solana for like five percent per year right seven to eight or nine percent per year is pretty good
[00:35:25] really good in traditional finance um but you're not going to have you're not going to have the banks fight with you you know you're not you're not going to have like right now they're like you know they they just fought in the u.s over stable coins right because they're they're threatened by it banks this is outside of their this is outside of their realm you know so if anything if they could we can tokenize it you know you tokenize it you know um they might be more interested in these markets than
[00:35:54] investing you know in them yeah so yeah and on the on the yield side it's it's not going to be it's not super competitive on its own for growth there's no way around that yeah as you say you can get you can get five percent on solana you can go out and get eight percent on ethereum it doesn't you don't have to be super crypto savvy to find you know 10 to 15 percent still while taking like a
[00:36:23] modicum of risk um we can't we can't compete with that but it comes into this my my my prediction my forecast that the crypto space as it grows it will attract more of the traditional investors who have been given confidence by the likes of black rock and fidelity uh franklin tembleton bank of america everyone coming and saying oh this technology is amazing digital assets are really potentially
[00:36:52] powerful i mean larry fink saying every asset should or could be at least tokenized amazing you've done my job for me um that's not to say that all of them should be tokenized so gradually the i think maybe even the age profile is increasing the risk profile is maybe decreasing or no which way around would be the risk appetite is maybe decreasing so entrance to the market have got maybe slightly more
[00:37:22] experienced return expectations they're not so interested in the moonshots they're not sure they want to have an allocation to bitcoin and ethan solana and sui etc because it's kind of if you're not investing in them now you're actually taking a you're taking a stance against them you're betting against crypto if you have zero allocation um but they want to transact in space but they still want the asset
[00:37:48] to be tangible and they still wanted to have the diversification that something like wine can offer and currently they don't really have that in the crypto space your your portfolio most people's portfolios i'm assuming is going to be 95 percent split between the top 10 coins maybe a few meme coins and then a little bit of usdc or usdt as like cash liquidity uh maybe some pax g you know paxos is gold
[00:38:13] backed token which offers similar sort of diversification to wine but otherwise there's very little in between and with every cycle we have every time someone gets burned they are a little bit less risk hungry and they're saying okay instead of investing in this because i want a thousand percent it's like oh yeah a hundred percent would be good um and then all of a sudden you're like oh do you know
[00:38:40] i'd be really happy if i got 50 this year and then i'm talking like over the course of five ten fifteen years as markets draw in more participants volatility decreases the risk appetite comes down access to data and information improves um uh and uh yeah as does as does trading so these all reduce uh volatility you know with with increase in market share market cap um and i don't know if this
[00:39:09] answers answers the question or goes off on a different tangent but um what what we what i'm really also really interested in is the much younger generation the much younger demographic because one of the challenges in the the wine world you know just the whole wine industry whether you're drinking collecting investing whatever it is is attracting this younger audience they are demonstrably drinking less
[00:39:38] possibly drinking a little bit better but they're drinking a lot less and the brands they engage with are those that are digital first are nimble are dynamic are cool for want of a better word um and the old world wines think bordeaux burgundy champagne um struggle to adapt to that there's only so much a top bordeaux can do to you know become cool they've been around for decades or centuries really
[00:40:08] um and that's a massive massive challenge so i uh i hope he doesn't mind me mentioning it i my my i've got a nephew who's in his early 20s and um rather than being interested in traditional equities he and his cohort invest in crypto like that is their idea of investing their portfolio allocation is not
[00:40:35] um 60 40 stocks and bonds as it you know historically has been recommended it's oh i'm i'm 55 bitcoin 20 ethereum you know i'm tracking dominance um and that is then they can trade these assets amongst each other like it's that's that's the way that it's that it's going so unless you can bring these physical assets into this kind of modern way of how they perceive
[00:41:04] ownership and exchange of value they're really going to struggle um and i'm not suggesting that overnight these wine industries which i'm obviously incredibly passionate about um these producers are going to notice it in the very short term but we're talking long-term shift in how we invest in how we exchange value you know just in how we perceive ownership of things
[00:41:32] i'm also 100% corrupto my wife's not she's a traditional so like it's a nice balance but um yeah i'm excited for the future and i love what you're up to so it sounds wonderful to me so i want to thank you very much uh for speaking with me today i really enjoyed speaking with you and having this conversation and uh yeah makes me think a lot so um i have one last question um it's how how can people find out more information about you about savvia um how can they how can they do that
[00:42:01] so we we just uh in fact we just launched our website last week with a wait list um because we we're in anticipation of launching in the next several weeks um and yeah only our first 250 onboarded customers um become founder members with some wicked perks like from bonus uh sav w which is
[00:42:28] our token to invitation to exclusive events to being able to buy some wine at cost price you know being in the the ceo telegram channel all that kind of thing um so i'd say go to savvia.com uh get on the wait list because when we launch yeah there should be some competition for those first 250 spots awesome thank you very much for your time today likewise have a good day thanks jimil