Innovation, Entrepreneurship, and Philanthropy: Marty Rifkin's Journey of Impact

[00:00:00] You know, there wasn't much of a gap in my kind of entrepreneurial kind of journey.

[00:00:10] I knew that when I got them at school, I wanted to get out there.

[00:00:15] I wanted to be in business.

[00:00:23] Welcome to the En Factor, Conversations with Entrepreneurs Who Started, Stumbled and Succeeded.

[00:00:29] I'm Rebecca White and I'm very excited today to welcome to the show Marty Rifkin.

[00:00:34] Marty is a long time entrepreneur and innovator and he's actually alum of the university where

[00:00:39] I teach, the University of Tampa.

[00:00:41] He's now located out in Seattle and I caught up with him today to tell me a little bit

[00:00:46] more about his story and his background.

[00:00:49] Marty, welcome to the show.

[00:00:50] Yeah, thank you for having me today.

[00:00:52] Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this.

[00:00:56] You know, I've heard some of your story but I think I'm going to learn a whole lot more

[00:01:00] today and I know that we are honoring you at the university later this week as a matter

[00:01:07] of fact for the work that you've done.

[00:01:09] So thank you for being willing to share your story and for hanging out with me today

[00:01:14] and with our students later this week.

[00:01:17] Great.

[00:01:18] So Marty, let's, you know, I always have to start with finding out a little bit about

[00:01:24] your background.

[00:01:25] So I know you came to the University of Tampa.

[00:01:28] Where did you come from and how did you find your way there?

[00:01:31] And how did that lead you to a career entrepreneur, a career of being an innovator and an entrepreneur?

[00:01:40] You know, I grew up in New York and I had a bunch of jobs in Florida.

[00:01:48] I had lived in Florida actually for a couple of years before going to the university and

[00:01:54] I worked at all kinds of different places even when I was in high school and I definitely

[00:02:02] wanted to stay in Florida.

[00:02:04] So there, I was living in Orlando at the time.

[00:02:08] I was working at Disney at the time and I was like, well I want to stay here in Florida.

[00:02:15] So there were choices of, you know, what schools can I get into or what can I afford

[00:02:22] and I managed to get a scholarship at UT which was nice.

[00:02:26] Then they had called it the President's Scholarship or something.

[00:02:31] And I remember going with my dad actually to the interview and he, you know, he walks

[00:02:37] me in and he goes, you know, this is a pretty expensive school.

[00:02:40] He says you got to nail this.

[00:02:42] He said, I would really like to get this scholarship.

[00:02:46] So but we had a great meeting and I got it.

[00:02:50] And I did other things at the school too.

[00:02:52] You know, I was on the student council and you got money for that.

[00:02:57] And I had managed to like cobble together different things at the school to kind of defray

[00:03:03] the cost but it was certainly a fun time.

[00:03:09] As it should be.

[00:03:10] As it should be.

[00:03:11] Right.

[00:03:12] Now you mentioned your father.

[00:03:14] Did you grow up with the, was he a role model for you as an entrepreneur or did

[00:03:20] you have entrepreneurial role models in your life as a young person?

[00:03:26] It was interesting because I was the kid in the neighborhood that sold everything.

[00:03:32] I sold coloring books and I sold, you know, candy and frozen pops in the summer.

[00:03:41] And my dad had a department store and it was like one of the first everything stores.

[00:03:47] So he would always take me into the store, you know, on the weekends and I would sit on

[00:03:54] his couch.

[00:03:55] So I really got to see how he interacted with all the people that worked there at the store

[00:04:00] and they sold everything in the store again.

[00:04:04] It was one of those first kind of where you went in and buy everything in a store,

[00:04:08] department store.

[00:04:10] And one day he decided, you know, I'm going to have you do the announcements,

[00:04:15] you know, people like hearing a kid's voice on the intercom to increase sales.

[00:04:22] And so I sold things, I mean light bulbs, Levi jeans, I would read all the specials.

[00:04:29] And one time he came running in and he, somebody had given me, because the departments could

[00:04:36] come in and give me copy to read.

[00:04:38] And he goes, who gave you the Brezier copy?

[00:04:43] I did.

[00:04:44] I did an ad for a copy and I remember asking him, what's a brassier?

[00:04:49] I just remember him laughing so hard.

[00:04:53] He goes, let me see that.

[00:04:55] He pulled it back from me.

[00:04:58] But you know, I spent a lot of time with him.

[00:05:00] He also, when I was also young, he built the first ice cream factory in Central America.

[00:05:09] So probably around the fourth grade we all lifted up the whole family move to Honduras.

[00:05:17] And so we lived there for a while to build this factory and that was really my first

[00:05:23] kind of experience.

[00:05:24] I got to work in the factory.

[00:05:26] You know, we had ice cream trucks.

[00:05:29] I mean, it was a pretty large operation that for a kid, you know, I learned not learned but

[00:05:36] more played with, you know, mixing ice cream flavors and how they made them taste good.

[00:05:41] And it was also about equipment, you know, just how things are made.

[00:05:46] And I think that's where I was really at that point I knew, you know, I'm going

[00:05:51] to major in business and I'm going to figure out how to do something out there after

[00:05:57] kind of growing up in business.

[00:05:59] So I knew by the time I got to the school, I was going to major in business.

[00:06:04] And yeah, where else I could put my hands on?

[00:06:07] Yeah, you know, what a great story.

[00:06:10] And what an interesting, you know, educational experience you had long before

[00:06:17] you came to college to study business.

[00:06:19] You learned a lot and your dad gave you a wide variety of experiences.

[00:06:24] You know, I think as parents, we don't always start out to do that for our children,

[00:06:29] but they learn so much from that.

[00:06:31] So you had you definitely had that role model and you went to college.

[00:06:37] And so what happened after you graduated?

[00:06:40] You know, I there there wasn't much of a gap in my kind of entrepreneurial

[00:06:47] kind of journey.

[00:06:48] I knew that when I got them with school, I wanted to get out there.

[00:06:52] I wanted to be in business.

[00:06:55] And my father had also he had another business that was distributing office furniture

[00:07:03] and he had many warehouses across the country, but he was having a hard time

[00:07:07] keeping track of inventory.

[00:07:09] And I love computer program.

[00:07:11] I wrote a complete D base three financial package for him.

[00:07:15] He could track its inventory, many skews profit and loss.

[00:07:20] He was very excited.

[00:07:22] It was kind of when kind of software was just accounting software was just kind

[00:07:27] of developing and I always tell people I probably should have just been a computer

[00:07:33] programmer since accounting software eventually got so big.

[00:07:37] And I really loved it, but that was part of it.

[00:07:40] And then also my wife, Kate Jones, who started the company with me.

[00:07:49] My mom had a book out at the time called the Ten Day Heart Recharge Diet.

[00:07:54] And she actually I would go with her.

[00:07:58] She started selling it with actually one of your previous guests, Kevin Harrington.

[00:08:03] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:04] And me and Kevin and her were in our 20s and we had this book

[00:08:09] and somehow we found Kevin and the people he was working.

[00:08:12] And we did cable commercials for the book.

[00:08:15] And Kate learned about cable TV and advertising.

[00:08:20] And I'd go with her and watch, you know, when she did the commercials for the

[00:08:24] you know, the book.

[00:08:25] But, you know, it was just interesting how, you know, your your path crosses

[00:08:31] with these people.

[00:08:31] We were both kind of starting out at the same time.

[00:08:34] I mean, we were both kind of I we were trying to sell my mom's book

[00:08:38] and Kevin was got this whole cable TV thing going.

[00:08:41] So it was interesting. It taught us a lot, you know, it was fun to kind of make it

[00:08:46] sell things and at the time it was kind of a new advertising media.

[00:08:52] This kind of late night commercial business.

[00:08:56] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:57] Kevin's story of figuring out that that late night time that was available

[00:09:02] and being able to purchase time inexpensively and and sell stuff.

[00:09:06] Right. That's right.

[00:09:07] As seen on TV.

[00:09:09] So so you got you.

[00:09:11] So you and your wife,

[00:09:14] so your wife's an entrepreneur as well.

[00:09:16] And so you probably got a lot of stories about the, you know, working with your

[00:09:20] spouse and and your family, your mom wrote a book and you and your wife

[00:09:25] were promoting that.

[00:09:26] And so so tell me where you went from there.

[00:09:30] You know, we it when Kate and I were in school, like the first kind

[00:09:37] of I would call it invention that I came up with is in 1979.

[00:09:43] We came up with the chip clip, which was basically the chip that the

[00:09:48] clip that went on potato chip bags.

[00:09:50] Yeah, sure. We all have them that I couldn't close the bag.

[00:09:55] So I had glued clothes, pins together and I was playing with different versions

[00:10:00] that I had mapped it out.

[00:10:02] And I just did not understand that the time patents or I wasn't kind of aware

[00:10:10] of I was in school.

[00:10:11] I mean, I had just gotten out of high school, first year at college.

[00:10:14] I mean, I was pretty busy and eventually a year later, a guy by the name of Shaw,

[00:10:21] he didn't end up patenting it, but he did push it to like Frito lay

[00:10:25] in some of the other.

[00:10:26] And I was like, hey, that's something I came up with.

[00:10:31] But I do when when you do come up with a good idea, it is, you know,

[00:10:36] people got have to understand, you know, try to patent it, you know,

[00:10:39] try to get it on paper and and figure that out because that can really help

[00:10:45] you along the way.

[00:10:46] And now my next idea, the water filtration device, I came up with a

[00:10:52] basically it's a straw device that when you are out in kind of the camping or

[00:10:58] something, people in the Northwest where I live were getting ill, drinking water

[00:11:04] and outside.

[00:11:05] And I figured, well, there must be a way to clean the water and keep them

[00:11:09] from getting sick.

[00:11:10] And I came up with this device and that one I did get a patent on.

[00:11:14] It was it was one of the first portable water filtration devices,

[00:11:19] which today I mean, there's hundreds of filters and bottles.

[00:11:23] We had a version that went in a water bottle.

[00:11:25] And that was kind of my first where I was like, wow, you know, I can come up

[00:11:31] with smart things that'll help people that, you know, I might be able to

[00:11:37] make a living at this kind of coming up with stuff.

[00:11:40] And so that really was my first one where it kind of made sense to me

[00:11:46] to patent it and come up with it, you know, a new idea.

[00:11:51] Yeah.

[00:11:52] Yeah.

[00:11:52] Yeah.

[00:11:53] Water filtration.

[00:11:54] Now were you also a camper and a hiker?

[00:11:56] Are you just kind of read about this?

[00:11:58] I mean, where do you get your ideas?

[00:11:59] I know the chip clip you said was just something that you...

[00:12:03] I mean, the chip clip was just, you know, you're eating potato chips

[00:12:06] and there's no way to close it.

[00:12:07] And it's funny because, you know, ideas, they get out in the air

[00:12:12] because you're not the only one probably experiencing that.

[00:12:15] It's kind of because I hear people, you know, almost like they're trying to do

[00:12:21] something and then, oh, there's so many other people doing this or, you know,

[00:12:26] someone who's maybe trying to buy or sell a house and no one's interested

[00:12:30] in that all of a sudden there's five people interested in how to know where,

[00:12:33] you know, because these ideas, they get in the air and they kind of

[00:12:37] have taken on a life of their own.

[00:12:39] So with the straw, I was reading articles and I mean,

[00:12:45] it was like, why are these people getting sick?

[00:12:47] There has to be some way.

[00:12:49] And the straw took out, you know, dirt, contaminants,

[00:12:52] giardia, things that could make you ill.

[00:12:55] And it was a way that, you know, people could go camping

[00:12:59] if you were drinking water that might not be,

[00:13:03] you know, you were sure about, you would not get sick, you know.

[00:13:06] And so I think that it was mostly just hearing about problems

[00:13:12] and going, well, is there a way to fix that?

[00:13:15] Yeah. You know, one of the things that I try to encourage my students

[00:13:20] to do is actually pay attention to what's going on in the world.

[00:13:24] Right? Right.

[00:13:25] You know, there's, you know, today there's just a lot of noise

[00:13:29] and a lot, a lot of things, you know, to take our attention and distract us.

[00:13:34] But at the same time, we live in a world of lots of information.

[00:13:40] And if you're looking for that and you're starting to connect the dots,

[00:13:43] which obviously you have a real, a real skill for naturally maybe,

[00:13:48] but also maybe because of this, you know, upbringing that you had

[00:13:53] and also having a very, you know, entrepreneurial family and spouse.

[00:13:57] But, you know, that ability to say, hey, there's more than just me in this, right?

[00:14:05] There's other people experiencing this and how can I solve that problem?

[00:14:09] So it's a real problem solving connect the dots kind of approach

[00:14:13] that you take. It is interesting because.

[00:14:17] And when you meet people that can do that, you know, the people

[00:14:22] that can see around corners, it is an amazing experience.

[00:14:27] And I mean, I've met a lot of people like that and I run up to people

[00:14:32] after I've heard them speak and talk to them if I felt, you know,

[00:14:37] that person knows what the next thing is going to be.

[00:14:40] I mean, there are people that they have a gift.

[00:14:43] I mean, for being able to kind of see things that are not apparent.

[00:14:48] And it's not, it's not, it's a skill.

[00:14:53] And like you said, yeah, if you keep up with what's going on in the world

[00:14:56] and you can see these things and also ideas that, you know,

[00:15:02] were not seen by people like when I came up with the gummy bear vitamin.

[00:15:09] People are like, who what is well, who needs that?

[00:15:12] What if there's tablets and capsules out there?

[00:15:15] You know, why are you trying to get this into my store?

[00:15:19] I already have all these children's products.

[00:15:22] And so I'm here going, no, no, this is a better way.

[00:15:26] This didn't exist before.

[00:15:27] And they go, yeah, I don't know even what you're talking about.

[00:15:30] These you're trying to sell me candy.

[00:15:33] And so you're convincing them, no, there's vitamins in there.

[00:15:36] There's herbs in there.

[00:15:37] There's good things. It's not, you don't eat a whole bag.

[00:15:40] You only eat two.

[00:15:41] Right. Right.

[00:15:43] You know, those concepts when people try to sell them,

[00:15:47] there is quite a bit of skepticism and rejection that you go through,

[00:15:52] you know, to convince people, no, no, this is a better idea.

[00:15:55] And, you know, me and my wife like to say, you know,

[00:15:58] we were overnight successes over 25 years, you know.

[00:16:02] So it does take a long time for people to kind of

[00:16:07] see the light.

[00:16:09] And then once they do, it kind of takes on a,

[00:16:13] obviously a life of its own.

[00:16:14] Right. Right.

[00:16:15] The curve starts to accelerate, right?

[00:16:18] And very quickly.

[00:16:20] Yeah, I was going to ask you about the gummy vitamins.

[00:16:22] So that's probably one of your biggest,

[00:16:25] I mean, you've had a number of success stories,

[00:16:27] but that's one of the biggest ones.

[00:16:29] How did that come about?

[00:16:30] How did you come up with the idea for gummy

[00:16:33] gummy vitamins, which we all know now.

[00:16:35] Everything's in gummy form practically.

[00:16:38] It's, you know, Kate and I in the business,

[00:16:42] we were selling chewable tablets that were,

[00:16:46] we had done a good job.

[00:16:48] We covered up the taste of vitamins, herbs,

[00:16:52] mostly children's products.

[00:16:54] And we really desperately wanted a product

[00:16:56] that could transition into the mass market.

[00:16:59] We were mostly selling to smaller stores.

[00:17:02] I had spent a lot of time on the candy aisle.

[00:17:07] The, the concept was kind of getting out there,

[00:17:11] kind of with beverages and confectionery,

[00:17:15] but no one had really done it well.

[00:17:19] The products tasted bad.

[00:17:22] There was a lot of inconsistency

[00:17:24] and we saw an opportunity to get our product

[00:17:28] to the next level to say,

[00:17:30] okay, can we make this better?

[00:17:32] And one of the first things Kate did was she said,

[00:17:36] look, people don't understand the product.

[00:17:39] Can we put it in a clear bottle?

[00:17:41] Let's just stop with the brown and the glass

[00:17:45] and all, you know, which was the norma

[00:17:47] in the vitamins and medicine and everything.

[00:17:50] And she said, well, let them see it.

[00:17:52] And I was like, oh, great idea.

[00:17:55] Unfortunately, my development was,

[00:17:57] did not catch up with the product.

[00:17:59] I was trying to make it natural,

[00:18:01] not use artificial flavors.

[00:18:03] I wanted products, you know, that I give to my own kids

[00:18:06] and the bears after about six months

[00:18:10] turned black on the show.

[00:18:12] And they completely just lost their color.

[00:18:16] And she was like, hmm, this is pretty disappointing.

[00:18:20] You need to go back to the drawing board on this one.

[00:18:22] I can't sell this product.

[00:18:24] And I remember handing me the bottle back

[00:18:27] because she had handled a lot of the customer complaints.

[00:18:30] She was president of the company and she said,

[00:18:33] like you need to give me a product

[00:18:35] that doesn't change over time.

[00:18:37] Which it took us a while.

[00:18:39] You know, it took us another probably year of development

[00:18:42] to get all the natural flavors and colors.

[00:18:45] Because again, I didn't want to make just kind

[00:18:47] of the candy artificial bears that were out there.

[00:18:50] So a lot of the iterations and time was spent

[00:18:54] on perfecting that product and making it better

[00:18:58] so that it could be, you know, tasty and good.

[00:19:03] And we tested a lot.

[00:19:05] You know, we have this thing called the floor test

[00:19:08] that we would give the sample of the product

[00:19:11] to a health food store or regular store.

[00:19:13] And kids are brutal.

[00:19:15] If they don't like a product,

[00:19:17] they will take it out of their mouth

[00:19:18] and throw it on the floor.

[00:19:20] So at the end of the day, we would go to the store

[00:19:23] and if the floor was littered, I mean, it was a sad day

[00:19:28] because your product stinks.

[00:19:30] Kids threw this down.

[00:19:32] If the floor was empty,

[00:19:33] I mean we would literally get excited.

[00:19:35] There's nothing on the floor.

[00:19:38] And we'd look how many they gave out during the day.

[00:19:40] It was like 50 or 100.

[00:19:42] It was like floor is empty.

[00:19:43] Well, you've got a product.

[00:19:45] You, no one took this out.

[00:19:47] Kids will not finish it.

[00:19:49] Adults will.

[00:19:50] Kids will not.

[00:19:51] Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:52] That's a great story.

[00:19:53] I love it.

[00:19:53] I love it.

[00:19:54] And there's so much in there I'd like to dig into.

[00:19:57] So the gummy bear vitamin,

[00:20:01] if I understood you correctly,

[00:20:03] when you introduced that,

[00:20:04] there were already some people

[00:20:05] that were kind of going down that line,

[00:20:08] but you wanted to create a better product

[00:20:10] and a more natural product.

[00:20:12] And which of course is something that many companies

[00:20:16] are trying to do even still yet today

[00:20:19] because we're demanding as customers,

[00:20:21] we're demanding, you know,

[00:20:23] safer more natural products in every way.

[00:20:27] But, you know, for those people who are listening now

[00:20:29] and they've got concepts they've been working on

[00:20:32] and there are other people out there

[00:20:34] who are doing the same thing or are trying it,

[00:20:37] what's your advice to them?

[00:20:39] Is that a good sign?

[00:20:41] Is that a bad sign?

[00:20:42] Do you give up?

[00:20:42] I mean, you know, how do you approach that

[00:20:46] because it is kind of interesting

[00:20:48] that there will be sort of momentum around the concept.

[00:20:55] Once you jump on it, you'll see,

[00:20:57] oh, maybe I'm not the only person doing that.

[00:21:01] You know, it is an interesting concept in itself

[00:21:05] of markets getting crowded around innovative ideas.

[00:21:11] And our feeling was always,

[00:21:15] because we always ran into competition

[00:21:18] and always ran into people trying to do it,

[00:21:20] is could we do it better and offer something

[00:21:25] that didn't exist before?

[00:21:28] And so one of our biggest competitors

[00:21:33] was Flintstones and Flintstones was known by everyone.

[00:21:39] They were always on the shelf and I remember

[00:21:46] we were just constantly, you know,

[00:21:51] our marketing team and sales team

[00:21:53] were running into issues here and there

[00:21:54] and I was always like, you know,

[00:21:56] get my product next to them

[00:21:58] because if I can stand my soldier,

[00:22:00] they used to call them soldiers on the shelf,

[00:22:03] next to theirs, I think mine is better than theirs.

[00:22:07] And so I never got afraid of the competition

[00:22:12] because I felt, you know, I'm gonna pull,

[00:22:15] people are gonna still take theirs.

[00:22:17] There are some people I'm not gonna get,

[00:22:18] but I think some people are gonna try mine

[00:22:20] sitting next to theirs and go, this is a better idea.

[00:22:24] So I don't always discourage people by saying,

[00:22:27] hey, you know, this idea is being done

[00:22:31] by so many people, you should just completely avoid it.

[00:22:34] I think what you have to look at is it being done well

[00:22:39] by those other people?

[00:22:40] Are they satisfying the needs?

[00:22:41] And does your angle improve what's out there

[00:22:45] or is it so different that you can make a difference

[00:22:50] and get into the marketplace

[00:22:52] and being able to tell the public

[00:22:55] and tell people, your consumers, your end customer,

[00:22:59] whoever that's gonna be, a store, a person,

[00:23:02] internet, direct to consumer.

[00:23:05] If you're making that difference,

[00:23:07] your idea can be viable.

[00:23:10] What I do see a lot though is we are chasing you

[00:23:13] after the same idea.

[00:23:14] This is popular right now

[00:23:15] and I'm just gonna do the same thing.

[00:23:17] And the point of differentiation is so difficult to find.

[00:23:22] If you have to struggle to find that,

[00:23:24] that is a very tough road to go down.

[00:23:27] But I do find people coming up

[00:23:29] with quite a bit of innovative ideas

[00:23:32] and ways to help people and their businesses.

[00:23:36] And being crowded is not always the end all,

[00:23:39] but it can afford the direction

[00:23:41] or how much capital you wanna kind of devote

[00:23:44] in your time because this is your life

[00:23:46] when you're an entrepreneur.

[00:23:48] You wanna find success at some point,

[00:23:51] but you have to pick a road

[00:23:53] that where you're gonna make a difference.

[00:23:55] Yeah, so you have to be able

[00:23:57] to prove that competitive differential, right?

[00:24:00] It's gotta be compelling that you're creating value

[00:24:03] if I'm hearing you correctly.

[00:24:05] And yeah, so I have to go back a little bit

[00:24:09] to the gummy bear vitamin story.

[00:24:13] You were talking about the clear bottle

[00:24:15] or the clear container which is brilliant.

[00:24:19] And your wife, it sounds like she's a very smart lady,

[00:24:23] but it reminds me of the story of Heinz.

[00:24:26] I mean, that's how Heinz

[00:24:28] way, way back in the day became successful

[00:24:31] because people didn't trust what was in the food

[00:24:33] because people would put all kinds of crap in there

[00:24:36] back then.

[00:24:37] And so they had to work on the packaging

[00:24:42] to create packaging where they could put ketchup

[00:24:45] in a bottle that could be seen so people could trust it.

[00:24:50] So I'm just curious,

[00:24:52] was your solution of vitamin change

[00:24:56] or was it a packaging change?

[00:24:59] In other words, did you find a different packaging

[00:25:01] that could allow your vitamins to survive

[00:25:03] or did you have to go back and reformulate the vitamins

[00:25:07] or were you able to solve that to your satisfaction

[00:25:10] in a clear container?

[00:25:12] So what happened was

[00:25:15] there was no way that Kate was giving up

[00:25:18] on the clear bottle.

[00:25:19] So it was strictly going back to R&D

[00:25:22] which is what I was in charge of.

[00:25:24] And she's like, you need to give me a product I can sell

[00:25:27] that'll last more than six months on the shelf.

[00:25:30] I don't care how you figure this out.

[00:25:33] But I really did not wanna go back

[00:25:35] to the artificial ingredients

[00:25:38] that were already out there and got me.

[00:25:40] So, you know, I really,

[00:25:42] I mean, we believed in the product,

[00:25:44] I felt it could be done.

[00:25:46] We had,

[00:25:48] I think at one time I had as many as eight people

[00:25:52] mixing iterations for me.

[00:25:55] And so that's, you come up with a formula,

[00:25:57] you change it, you're trying to mix different ingredients

[00:26:01] and you have to figure out a way how to get it

[00:26:04] to stabilize.

[00:26:05] So we were really probably one of the first

[00:26:09] to use kind of stabilized colors.

[00:26:12] We mixed them with other,

[00:26:15] there was some antioxidants that we figured out work

[00:26:18] because we were already in the vitamin business.

[00:26:20] So if you put enough, say vitamin C or vitamin E

[00:26:24] or other natural antioxidants,

[00:26:26] but if you went over a certain amount

[00:26:28] it actually sped up the process.

[00:26:30] So it did take us a while, you know,

[00:26:33] with shelf tests and, you know,

[00:26:35] stability testing to get the product again through these,

[00:26:41] these, I can't tell you hundreds and hundreds

[00:26:45] of iterations until you get one that you're like,

[00:26:48] okay, this one works in the proper amount.

[00:26:51] It tastes good because you don't want to put too much

[00:26:53] of something that'll keep it from changing color,

[00:26:57] but it'll taste awful.

[00:26:58] And we would get that from customers going,

[00:27:01] well, could you put in all this stuff

[00:27:03] or all that ingredient?

[00:27:05] I won't move it this much.

[00:27:06] And I'd go, no, I said this will taste bad.

[00:27:10] It might be healthier for you,

[00:27:12] but there is no kid that is gonna eat this.

[00:27:15] So no matter how healthy you may perceive a product,

[00:27:19] if you formulate it poorly and it tastes bad,

[00:27:22] you might get that in your kid one time,

[00:27:25] really hard to get it in twice.

[00:27:27] And I learned this early on with my own kids

[00:27:30] because I would chase them around the house

[00:27:32] with my iterations of this product

[00:27:34] and they would go hide sometimes

[00:27:36] because they're like, we're not eating that again.

[00:27:38] That last one was horrible.

[00:27:40] You can't trick us again.

[00:27:43] I'm like, no, no, no, no, it's different.

[00:27:44] I fixed it.

[00:27:45] I took this out or that out.

[00:27:47] And I just remember my oldest daughter negotiating

[00:27:51] with her going, God, just one more time.

[00:27:53] Just, I'm telling you, it'll be good

[00:27:56] and getting her to try it.

[00:27:57] And I knew you don't get a lot of chances.

[00:28:01] And so I really wanted a product that would be,

[00:28:05] that was our theme, a product that would be delicious

[00:28:09] all the time, not just some of the time.

[00:28:14] I wasn't going for people's perception.

[00:28:17] I wanted them to get nutrition from it.

[00:28:21] And I wanted them to kind of understand

[00:28:24] you could eat one or two of something,

[00:28:25] not an entire bag and get nutrition and be satisfied

[00:28:29] and the product to be good.

[00:28:33] So one thing I think I'm hearing is that,

[00:28:36] you know, when you went back to solve this problem

[00:28:39] and probably as you solve problems along the way,

[00:28:43] you kept that focus on whatever your value add was,

[00:28:48] your key differentiating factors,

[00:28:50] which I think I heard you say is it tastes good

[00:28:53] and it's natural and it gets the job done

[00:28:58] of getting the vitamin into the child.

[00:29:00] Yes, and it's interesting because when you say crowded market

[00:29:04] as the company developed, obviously we've got competitors

[00:29:07] into the market.

[00:29:08] And a lot of the competitors chase more in the product.

[00:29:14] So they would chase higher amounts of vitamins,

[00:29:17] higher amounts of herbs,

[00:29:19] and so buyers would go, well,

[00:29:21] this product has double of your ingredient in there.

[00:29:26] Why shouldn't I buy this one?

[00:29:27] I said, well, that one tastes horrible.

[00:29:29] I said, it looks good to you now on paper,

[00:29:32] but mine will outsell that one.

[00:29:35] Oh, it's only half, you know, yours is 50% of this one.

[00:29:40] I said, I know because I formulated it not to taste bad.

[00:29:44] And I said, I'm telling you mine will outsell that one.

[00:29:48] And we did, we outsold every brand out there

[00:29:53] and even today the brand is still number one

[00:29:56] in the category.

[00:29:57] So it's kind of a testament to kind of what we built

[00:30:00] that something could survive

[00:30:02] and still be number one out there

[00:30:04] in a particular category.

[00:30:06] Well, you know, there's so many things

[00:30:08] we could talk about with that,

[00:30:09] but when it comes to marketing and messaging,

[00:30:12] you know, really understanding the insights

[00:30:15] of your customer base, right?

[00:30:17] And what matters.

[00:30:18] And, you know, as a parent,

[00:30:20] of course my children are older now

[00:30:22] and I have grandchildren,

[00:30:23] but you know, it's still a challenge many times.

[00:30:27] I mean, parents, every parent experiences it, I think,

[00:30:30] challenge to get something inside of your child

[00:30:32] that's gonna be good for them.

[00:30:36] And you'd rather get just a little bit

[00:30:39] of something good for them than nothing at all, right?

[00:30:42] Something that ends up on the floor.

[00:30:44] Right.

[00:30:45] That's right.

[00:30:46] And then also marketing is such a critical point.

[00:30:50] Like, okay, we developed this great product

[00:30:53] and I was just lucky enough to be married to Kate Jones

[00:30:57] who did all of our marketing.

[00:30:59] She's president of the company

[00:31:01] and she created these amazing marketing programs

[00:31:06] that sold the product.

[00:31:07] She was a mother herself.

[00:31:08] She understood just what you said,

[00:31:11] trying to get something into her kids

[00:31:14] that she felt was good for them.

[00:31:16] She didn't want them to have colds.

[00:31:17] She wanted them to be healthy.

[00:31:19] Well, how do you do that?

[00:31:20] You have to market.

[00:31:21] And she came up with just brilliant marketing campaigns.

[00:31:25] Some of them are in marketing textbooks today.

[00:31:28] Sometimes we get calls,

[00:31:30] hey, can we use this gummy bite marketing campaign?

[00:31:34] And they're out there.

[00:31:36] But our kids were in our TV commercials.

[00:31:39] If you ever look at the old gummy bite commercials,

[00:31:41] we would take them to the studio

[00:31:44] and they would be the one running up

[00:31:46] to the lady and taking the gummy bite.

[00:31:48] But we kind of were lucky that,

[00:31:52] there was these two sides.

[00:31:54] I could kind of develop things.

[00:31:56] Kate was able to market and help run the company

[00:32:01] and we kind of played off each other.

[00:32:05] And we made a good team.

[00:32:07] I don't know if I recommend that

[00:32:09] to every married couple out there

[00:32:11] to go into business together,

[00:32:13] but if you can find a way to work together

[00:32:16] and kind of split responsibilities,

[00:32:18] I think that was probably what helped me get work.

[00:32:22] Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:23] I mean, whether it's your spouse or not,

[00:32:25] it's so valuable to understand where your strengths are

[00:32:28] and where your weaknesses are

[00:32:30] and fill in the gaps with somebody else.

[00:32:32] And I'm sure for, I mean, we could talk probably all day

[00:32:36] about how you run a company with your spouse

[00:32:38] and I'm sure a lot of it is,

[00:32:40] could be summed up in what you just said,

[00:32:42] respecting each other's strengths

[00:32:44] and letting that person really take responsibility

[00:32:50] and shine, so to speak, with what they do best.

[00:32:56] So you've introduced a number of products.

[00:33:04] So I'd like to kind of back up again,

[00:33:06] a lot of our listeners may have ideas

[00:33:09] they wanna bring to market,

[00:33:11] they may have a product already

[00:33:12] or they may already be developing,

[00:33:15] I mean, they might already be selling a product.

[00:33:18] So with your products,

[00:33:20] did you build separate companies for each product?

[00:33:24] Did you ever consider licensing versus manufacturing?

[00:33:30] What was the model you used

[00:33:32] and how did you develop that model?

[00:33:35] I always felt it depended on the product.

[00:33:38] I definitely was a person that if I felt

[00:33:43] I had the expertise in it,

[00:33:46] I was gonna push forward on my own

[00:33:48] and try to fund it, try to make it,

[00:33:52] try to get as close to the complete supply chain

[00:33:56] as I could.

[00:33:58] Something that I didn't have a lot of experience in

[00:34:01] like the water filtration product,

[00:34:03] that one was a complete license.

[00:34:04] I was like, I don't know this market.

[00:34:07] I just figured this thing out.

[00:34:09] I'm gonna try to make money that way.

[00:34:11] So it really depended on your mindset

[00:34:18] at the time of what your personal skills are

[00:34:23] and your ability to finance something.

[00:34:30] The marketing department headed by Kate would go crazy

[00:34:34] because a lot of times we would start selling something

[00:34:37] that was in my head.

[00:34:38] The sales guy would come in and go,

[00:34:39] hey, I need a new product.

[00:34:42] We have two slots on this shelf

[00:34:44] and I would like, well, can we do this flavor

[00:34:47] and that flavor?

[00:34:48] And Kate would come in and go,

[00:34:50] you don't have this yet.

[00:34:52] I can't start making a flyer for something

[00:34:55] that doesn't exist.

[00:34:56] Of course the sales guy would come in and go,

[00:34:59] no, no, I need the flyer.

[00:35:00] I'm going out.

[00:35:01] So there was quite a bit of,

[00:35:05] you get friction in an organization

[00:35:07] when you kind of just keep coming up with,

[00:35:10] I was an idea guy.

[00:35:11] Kate was more of the gate and going, look, I get it.

[00:35:15] I mean, literally I'd have like 15 ideas on the table.

[00:35:18] She goes, we can't come out with 15 products at once.

[00:35:21] No normal company does that.

[00:35:24] You could pick three, which is still a lot

[00:35:26] but you're, and I was like, there's no way.

[00:35:28] They're all great.

[00:35:29] You can't narrow it down.

[00:35:31] And so a lot of this kind of give and take

[00:35:34] with of course the sales team,

[00:35:37] come out with 50 products at once.

[00:35:39] They're like, great, give us more stuff

[00:35:40] that you can get out there with.

[00:35:42] But really you have to have a plan

[00:35:46] if you're willing to kind of grind out.

[00:35:50] And it is a grind because you're talking

[00:35:53] about financing something, it's capital intensive

[00:35:57] depending on what industry you're in.

[00:35:59] And the method is a lot of it,

[00:36:01] depends on the direction you wanna go.

[00:36:03] There's other options today because you have online

[00:36:07] direct to consumer which didn't exist.

[00:36:09] Stores were the only game back when the gummies first started

[00:36:14] but the options for entrepreneurs now

[00:36:18] are so much broader.

[00:36:21] I'm not saying they're less expensive.

[00:36:23] It's still expensive to market anything.

[00:36:25] I don't care what you have.

[00:36:27] And it does take marketing.

[00:36:31] Kate has a saying, nothing sells itself.

[00:36:34] And I always say, no, no, no, it'll sell itself.

[00:36:37] That's great.

[00:36:38] And she's like, nope, you still gotta sell it

[00:36:40] and it costs money.

[00:36:42] And so it's expensive but there are ways to do it

[00:36:46] depending on what kind of position in life you're in

[00:36:49] because obviously it's your time

[00:36:51] and how much work it's gonna be.

[00:36:52] If you wanna do everything, we wanted to do end to end.

[00:36:56] We wanted to develop the product,

[00:36:57] manufacture the product, sell the product.

[00:37:00] We wanted to own the complete end-to-end distribution

[00:37:04] and manufacturing so again we were pretty busy.

[00:37:09] Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:10] You brought up digital marketing and selling direct

[00:37:14] and I'm sure a lot of newcomers into the space today.

[00:37:18] Vitamins if we use that category

[00:37:21] are selling directly online and having a lot of success

[00:37:25] but you sold primarily through retail

[00:37:28] because that was the tradition and the norm

[00:37:31] when you first started.

[00:37:33] So could you talk a little bit about that sales process

[00:37:38] for somebody who is hoping to get their product

[00:37:41] on the shelves of a grocery store, a drug store,

[00:37:45] another retail outlet, any stories or advice

[00:37:51] along that line about that

[00:37:53] because getting that shelf space is very precious

[00:37:56] and very challenging, isn't it?

[00:37:58] I can tell you I have been thrown out of untold meetings

[00:38:05] for when I first came out with the gummy bear vitamin.

[00:38:09] It was a very difficult challenge

[00:38:12] to overcome tablets and capsules that were out there.

[00:38:17] It took us quite a while to figure out how to sell it,

[00:38:21] how to convince store owners to put us on the shelf.

[00:38:24] So my first bit of advice is

[00:38:26] if you really believe in your product, don't give up.

[00:38:30] If you think it's good and you've let other people eat it

[00:38:35] and experience it and they also think it's good,

[00:38:38] you have to keep going and retail itself

[00:38:43] much like online is very competitive.

[00:38:46] It's very tricky real estate to maneuver

[00:38:51] but companies do do it and they do get shelf space

[00:38:55] and our method was really, we did a lot of free sampling.

[00:38:59] We let people try it, we got it out there

[00:39:01] because it was so new, it was the only way.

[00:39:05] Now it's expensive, obviously you have to give

[00:39:07] free product away and do demos

[00:39:09] and we were constantly, constantly doing that

[00:39:12] because we knew if we could get it into people's mouths

[00:39:14] even one time, they would become a customer.

[00:39:19] So it really, it ended up being one of our main

[00:39:23] marketing focuses and where we spent a lot of our money

[00:39:26] that if we were given an opportunity to store it,

[00:39:28] we'd go yeah, I'll bring it in, you have to do

[00:39:30] this many demos and all my store would go great,

[00:39:32] we'll do that, you bring it in, we'll sell it.

[00:39:35] And we knew if you're making a product

[00:39:39] that people are gonna consume or see

[00:39:42] or be able to touch and feel and use in their life,

[00:39:45] if you're able to give them a sample,

[00:39:49] that it's just a hugely critical, you see it at Costco,

[00:39:55] you can go around to all the tables.

[00:39:56] Well those companies, I mean they spend

[00:39:59] tens of thousands of dollars on those demos.

[00:40:02] I mean, you want people eating it and going

[00:40:03] hey, I like that product, well it's right over here.

[00:40:06] You can go buy it right now if you like it so much.

[00:40:09] So they're obviously, it goes on, not there,

[00:40:13] it goes on in a lot of different stores,

[00:40:15] but that's a critical method.

[00:40:17] Yeah, yeah and you're right, I mean,

[00:40:19] I don't know how many times I've done that.

[00:40:21] I didn't intend to buy something when I went into Costco

[00:40:24] for example and they're giving out samples

[00:40:26] and it's like oh, it's pretty good, I'll buy that,

[00:40:28] give it a try.

[00:40:29] So sampling, yeah, I think it works, it works.

[00:40:32] So building a company, you mentioned that

[00:40:35] if you had the expertise, you wanted to own

[00:40:38] the distribution channel.

[00:40:40] So from a manufacturing perspective,

[00:40:45] what did you learn about that?

[00:40:47] Because you had to have a prototype built I'm sure

[00:40:49] and you had to do a lot of research and development.

[00:40:54] Did you outsource all that?

[00:40:56] Did you eventually hire that?

[00:41:00] How did you build that company that had to include

[00:41:03] not only marketing but also the whole R&D side?

[00:41:07] It was a very interesting process because

[00:41:12] as an entrepreneur you start off doing everything yourself

[00:41:15] because you're trying to figure it

[00:41:18] and so you're learning everything yourself

[00:41:21] and I felt okay, if I'm gonna build this factory,

[00:41:24] first of all I'm approaching equipment people

[00:41:28] and they're going well there's no equipment

[00:41:32] that exists out there.

[00:41:33] You wanna make candy?

[00:41:34] I can sell you candy equipment, that's out there.

[00:41:37] No, no, I have to put an exact amount of vitamins

[00:41:40] in each one of these really tiny two and a half gram bears

[00:41:44] and they're like that doesn't exist.

[00:41:47] And I'm like well I need to figure it out.

[00:41:50] I said I'm going to make a product that's taste good,

[00:41:55] is efficacious, has the right amount of vitamins

[00:41:58] because that's one of the things

[00:41:59] I'm trying to convince people hey this is candy

[00:42:02] but it has an exact amount of something in it.

[00:42:04] You're not gonna be over, you're not gonna be under,

[00:42:07] it's gonna be the exact amount.

[00:42:09] So developing that equipment,

[00:42:12] it took us quite a while and we're talking years,

[00:42:16] working with the factors, developing buildings

[00:42:20] that were suited to the process

[00:42:22] because there's a lot of environmental kind of metrics

[00:42:26] that you have to hit the right temperatures in the room

[00:42:29] and the equipment and not too humid, not too hot,

[00:42:33] not too cold I mean it's really quite exacting

[00:42:36] to make a good product.

[00:42:38] And it's just, it was a learning process.

[00:42:42] Yes I had manufacturers help me

[00:42:45] and we would reach out to various engineers

[00:42:48] to kind of be part of the process

[00:42:50] but a lot of it came down to just kind of me

[00:42:55] and working with them saying hey we need

[00:42:57] to figure this out and having a willing

[00:43:01] equipment manufacturer which I did on the other side

[00:43:04] and say yeah we'll help you develop this

[00:43:06] but along the way, I remember being on the floor one time

[00:43:11] with my manager of the factory at that time

[00:43:16] and he was closing a syrup silo,

[00:43:19] 80,000 gallons of syrup which just locked up on him

[00:43:23] and all that syrup came out

[00:43:25] and he could not close this valve.

[00:43:28] And we were standing there

[00:43:32] and he of course he's trying to shut the valve

[00:43:34] and I just started laughing and I was like,

[00:43:37] he's why are you laughing?

[00:43:39] We're knee deep in syrup at that point.

[00:43:41] I said it's over, I said you're not,

[00:43:43] I said all this syrup is coming out, it's gravity.

[00:43:47] I said when we're done, we're putting two valves

[00:43:50] on that thing, we're gonna clean this up

[00:43:52] and that's never gonna happen again.

[00:43:54] And so that was a saying we had,

[00:43:57] we were like this is never gonna happen again.

[00:44:00] Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:03] You can't afford it, right?

[00:44:04] I mean that's an expensive lesson

[00:44:08] but those are the ones you never forget, right?

[00:44:11] That's right.

[00:44:12] So Marty how did you keep your company running

[00:44:15] through all these years of development?

[00:44:16] Were you selling other products

[00:44:18] and how did that work for your company?

[00:44:22] I mean the two things that we always were chasing

[00:44:27] was space and money.

[00:44:29] As an entrepreneur I would say if you have a growing business

[00:44:33] there's two things you're always looking for.

[00:44:35] You need more space to do it

[00:44:37] if it is a space intensive business

[00:44:39] like making a thing is, I don't care what you're making,

[00:44:42] if you're making a lot of it you need room and funding.

[00:44:45] And so I really had my day job of running my company

[00:44:49] and I had my later in the day job

[00:44:53] of finding either money or space

[00:44:57] and I really almost had cut up my day

[00:45:00] where I had an accountant at the time

[00:45:05] and it was like dialing for dollars.

[00:45:08] We would go from bank to bank to bank to bank

[00:45:11] and I mean just you rack up so many knows

[00:45:15] and this was a good business, a growing business

[00:45:18] but obviously with a product that's brand new

[00:45:21] these banks had never heard of it

[00:45:23] and I'm like hey I'm trying to fund this.

[00:45:26] I need money either for a building,

[00:45:28] I need it for equipment.

[00:45:30] So let me get this straight,

[00:45:31] you need a loan for equipment

[00:45:32] that no one's ever made before, right?

[00:45:38] That doesn't sound like a great deal for me.

[00:45:40] Can't you buy something that's already out there?

[00:45:42] I said no, this product doesn't exist,

[00:45:45] no one is going to have equipment.

[00:45:47] It has to be this type of new equipment.

[00:45:50] So really chasing that is really key

[00:45:55] to kind of keeping your business moving forward

[00:45:59] but it's part of the process.

[00:46:03] You kinda have to get used to it,

[00:46:04] I figured out hey this is part of building my business

[00:46:09] and growing it.

[00:46:10] If I don't have these things,

[00:46:13] we were at one time when we were smaller

[00:46:16] I remember we got this big order,

[00:46:19] big order for the gummies

[00:46:21] and we just ran out of room

[00:46:24] and me and Kate we ran into where the offices were

[00:46:28] and told everybody you gotta leave your office.

[00:46:31] You're gonna have to work in the hall

[00:46:34] and we literally converted them to production rooms.

[00:46:37] We put stuff in there,

[00:46:39] we were bottling by hand at the time

[00:46:41] and people did it.

[00:46:43] The desks were in the hall

[00:46:44] and the factory workers would gown up

[00:46:48] and go into these rooms

[00:46:49] and we were like we'll figure it out,

[00:46:51] we'll find you another place to work

[00:46:53] when we figure out space

[00:46:54] but you have to have a good sense of humor

[00:46:58] and be pretty flexible

[00:47:00] and have people around you that are like okay we get it.

[00:47:04] You have an opportunity here to get this out.

[00:47:06] It was for a major account,

[00:47:08] we couldn't be late.

[00:47:09] You know your back kinda gets up.

[00:47:11] You can't just go oh I'll use this building next door.

[00:47:15] A lot of times there's not one next door

[00:47:17] it's just what you have inside

[00:47:19] so that was kind of an interesting story.

[00:47:23] I mean sometimes a big customer

[00:47:27] can literally put you out of business, right?

[00:47:29] If you can't.

[00:47:30] So you just take every step possible.

[00:47:34] I mean what a story and it's just amazing

[00:47:38] what you've accomplished

[00:47:39] and as I listen to those stories

[00:47:42] I wonder you said you gotta be flexible and all that

[00:47:47] the other word I'll add

[00:47:49] a couple of words I'll add are resilient and perseverance

[00:47:53] and it's a lot of hard work.

[00:47:56] You were just pointing out

[00:47:58] your day job, night job all 24 hours some days I'm sure.

[00:48:03] So were there ever times Marty

[00:48:05] when you thought about giving up

[00:48:07] or where you had a big failure that

[00:48:13] you just felt like was almost the end of the line?

[00:48:15] Obviously you learned to learn from all your challenges

[00:48:20] but were there any times that you thought about giving up

[00:48:23] and how did you get through that?

[00:48:24] You know,

[00:48:27] we for sure almost ran out of money

[00:48:31] at least four or five times where we were done.

[00:48:35] I did not have money to pay the bills.

[00:48:38] I did not have money to pay the rent.

[00:48:41] It was literally trying to outrun the negatives

[00:48:47] because I was constantly investing in it

[00:48:49] so I was making money investing in it, investing in it

[00:48:52] and constantly looking for financing

[00:48:54] and trying to finance things in different ways

[00:48:57] but we knew we had something good

[00:49:01] so it's very hard for an entrepreneur to stop.

[00:49:06] I mean it's a very,

[00:49:09] I just felt there was a way to make this big.

[00:49:12] I had not put all the pieces together

[00:49:16] and again it's disheartening when you go to banks

[00:49:21] and go okay I need to do this

[00:49:23] and they're like no, no, no one after the other

[00:49:26] and you do after a while you think to yourself

[00:49:29] well maybe this is dumb,

[00:49:30] maybe they're right, maybe I'm missing something

[00:49:35] and I should give up

[00:49:36] because everybody keeps telling me

[00:49:38] this is a stupid idea, no one needs this product.

[00:49:42] I get it you like it but it's not out there.

[00:49:47] There's no success pattern,

[00:49:48] there's nothing you can point to that says

[00:49:50] I'm gonna get my money back if I loan you money

[00:49:53] and I had no comeback for that

[00:49:56] other than it's gonna be great.

[00:49:57] I think it's gonna work, I'm gonna pay you back

[00:50:01] but that process there were numerous times

[00:50:05] and quite frankly sometimes if you have a good partner

[00:50:10] I can remember one particular time with Kate

[00:50:15] where we needed money

[00:50:18] and she's like we've come this far

[00:50:22] but we'll put our house up,

[00:50:24] just put everything we own up.

[00:50:27] You kind of run this this far,

[00:50:31] we'll figure out something, it doesn't work.

[00:50:34] She always could work, Kate could always get jobs,

[00:50:37] she was always me I was a little more troubled

[00:50:39] but Kate could always, she always worked

[00:50:42] and made money all through her entire life

[00:50:45] but I was like no we worked so hard to make,

[00:50:48] we had put some money aside,

[00:50:50] I don't wanna put it back in,

[00:50:52] we did that before and she's like no,

[00:50:54] she was like one you're not gonna let this go.

[00:50:58] Just shove the chips back in and do it

[00:51:01] and we did and it worked out

[00:51:04] but I have to tell you those are very,

[00:51:06] you have a family of kids,

[00:51:07] I mean entrepreneurs you're living along the way

[00:51:10] and there's some stressful times

[00:51:15] when you put, you don't realize the companies are out there

[00:51:18] and there's people behind there,

[00:51:19] there are people that have figured out

[00:51:21] how to run these companies where they're growing,

[00:51:25] not going growing doing well, not doing well

[00:51:27] but those decisions,

[00:51:31] they're pretty stressful

[00:51:33] and finally we did do that,

[00:51:34] I said you're right,

[00:51:36] I'm not letting this one go and let's just do it

[00:51:40] but I think if she had not said that

[00:51:42] I think there was a point where I was like

[00:51:44] ah, this is very risky what we're doing,

[00:51:48] you know, we had a lot of debt at the time

[00:51:51] and you do start questioning your decisions,

[00:51:55] waiting for it to kind of get big enough

[00:51:58] to support me, everything was always big.

[00:52:03] It's gonna be great, big,

[00:52:05] I was always planning the next factory

[00:52:07] but couldn't even pay off the first one,

[00:52:09] so I was always moving on to the,

[00:52:11] she was like, you haven't figured out this one yet,

[00:52:13] no, no, we're moving on to the next one

[00:52:15] so it is part of the spirit.

[00:52:19] That's the vision though that's necessary

[00:52:22] I think to get people behind you, right?

[00:52:25] I mean you can't paint a tiny little vision

[00:52:28] and expect people to get excited about it

[00:52:30] but I'm sure there were a lot of 3 a.m. wake ups

[00:52:35] when you were like sweating and panicking, wondering how-

[00:52:39] You would just surprise how many board meetings there are

[00:52:42] at three o'clock in the morning

[00:52:43] I'd be glad if I was with this robot.

[00:52:45] Wake up, we gotta talk about this right now

[00:52:48] and it's like it's three o'clock in the morning

[00:52:50] really right now?

[00:52:52] You're gonna see me at work and like no,

[00:52:56] we gotta talk about this right now,

[00:52:57] I got a good idea, she's like yes I know.

[00:53:01] Did you keep like a piece of paper by the bed

[00:53:05] where you wrote down your ideas

[00:53:07] or did you have a place where ideas came to you?

[00:53:09] Like the shower or when you were running?

[00:53:12] Well I have to tell you,

[00:53:14] because people laugh, if you come into my bedroom

[00:53:19] in the morning when you wake up

[00:53:21] I will literally have 25 index cards on the floor.

[00:53:27] They're littered, my ideas come while I'm sleeping.

[00:53:30] I am writing during the night

[00:53:33] I do not like to forget a good idea

[00:53:35] and even now Kate's like what are you thinking about?

[00:53:38] Like there's the whole floor is full

[00:53:40] I said they're just ideas.

[00:53:41] I'm trying to think up something else

[00:53:43] and I did that through my whole career

[00:53:47] that if I thought of something good

[00:53:49] I didn't wanna forget it.

[00:53:50] Now could I do all the ideas?

[00:53:52] No but I did, I wrote them down.

[00:53:55] One advice to tell people

[00:53:58] one idea can change your life.

[00:54:01] You gotta write them down, you gotta remember them

[00:54:03] and look it's no good, it's no good

[00:54:05] but again I just stacks and stacks of these index cards

[00:54:13] that I write stuff on whatever it comes to me

[00:54:15] a lot of it at night but I do track of those.

[00:54:19] I love that, I just had a conversation

[00:54:22] with the guy who's running a big company

[00:54:23] and he said he kept a sheet of paper

[00:54:26] or a notepad by his band

[00:54:27] and he said he couldn't always read

[00:54:29] what he had written in the mail.

[00:54:30] But he wrote it down so keep a notepad,

[00:54:36] keep index cards, keep something to write on

[00:54:39] all the time because you never know

[00:54:40] when you're gonna be inspired

[00:54:42] maybe the middle of the night.

[00:54:43] What a great lesson.

[00:54:46] I love this story, I think I could talk about it forever

[00:54:49] but I also wanted to ask you a little bit

[00:54:52] about philanthropy because I know

[00:54:54] that's a really important part of what you're doing now

[00:54:57] and it's a KMR foundation I think

[00:55:02] you support underserved communities

[00:55:04] and so I'm really, I want to ask you

[00:55:07] about your thoughts about philanthropy

[00:55:10] and kind of the legacy you wanna leave

[00:55:14] with all the work that you've done

[00:55:15] and the life that you've developed and created.

[00:55:19] So, Kate runs the foundation right now

[00:55:24] and I participate in it

[00:55:26] but we also come from it sometimes from different angles

[00:55:31] because the thing that I learned was

[00:55:36] in our town there are many organizations

[00:55:39] many charitable organizations

[00:55:41] and they're trying to get to a goal

[00:55:43] they're trying to either help more people

[00:55:45] they're trying to build a building

[00:55:46] or trying to get more services out there

[00:55:50] and they can sometimes lose their way

[00:55:52] and the one thing I never liked in our town

[00:55:55] we're here in Vancouver, Washington

[00:55:57] it's right in your Portland

[00:55:59] it's not a huge town

[00:56:01] but it has very charitable people out there

[00:56:05] well deal fatigue can happen

[00:56:08] just like in the business world

[00:56:09] with charities where they're like

[00:56:11] okay we've been working on this one group

[00:56:13] they were working on a shelter, a homeless shelter

[00:56:17] for probably nine years

[00:56:20] and I went in and I sat with the people running

[00:56:22] I was like this is too long for your donors

[00:56:25] I said people are getting,

[00:56:28] they well we're not raising any more money

[00:56:29] I said I can tell you why

[00:56:31] after nine years they're not looking at a building

[00:56:34] and so I retooled their plan

[00:56:36] I gave them some money

[00:56:38] not all the money they needed

[00:56:40] they actually had raised quite a bit

[00:56:42] they had lost some government funding

[00:56:44] that was gonna be part of the building

[00:56:46] that kind of went away

[00:56:47] but I said you have to sell the vision of completion

[00:56:51] I said have you found a building

[00:56:54] are you gonna rehab one

[00:56:55] are you gonna build it

[00:56:56] I said people are not seeing anything

[00:56:58] other than you telling them it's coming

[00:57:01] so to me that kind of being part of organizations

[00:57:06] that we've helped survive monetarily

[00:57:09] but also just planning

[00:57:11] and saying okay we're gonna change direction here

[00:57:14] we're gonna go down this path

[00:57:16] and a lot of quite a few of our

[00:57:21] I approach them as investments

[00:57:22] even though they're all charities that

[00:57:24] okay we want you to stay in business

[00:57:27] how do you have a good idea

[00:57:29] how do you keep going

[00:57:30] how do you keep raising money

[00:57:32] how do you go into the future

[00:57:34] can you change your model

[00:57:35] can you reduce your expenses

[00:57:37] can you help more people

[00:57:39] what's going to happen down the road

[00:57:41] instead of you kind of every year going

[00:57:44] I'm out of money

[00:57:44] I may have to close

[00:57:46] that's not a business model

[00:57:47] business people don't can't act that way

[00:57:50] they'd be very sad at the end of every year

[00:57:53] if they thought oh that's it

[00:57:54] I gotta close

[00:57:55] I ran out of money

[00:57:56] so quite a bit of the work that we've done

[00:58:00] is kind of also trying to help the organizations

[00:58:03] to kind of get better

[00:58:05] and some have just done incredibly well

[00:58:08] because we kind of also found pieces

[00:58:12] that has helped organizations

[00:58:14] that have really become very successful

[00:58:17] and sometimes it's these

[00:58:20] kind of small changes in the beginning

[00:58:22] you know because sometimes you have one entrepreneur

[00:58:24] in the beginning

[00:58:25] because there's entrepreneurs in charities as well

[00:58:28] doing everything themselves

[00:58:30] and I've sat with them and go look

[00:58:33] you're not doing everything yourself well

[00:58:35] I said what if you had a person in the office

[00:58:38] taking care of this

[00:58:38] or what if you had a program director

[00:58:41] that would take care of that

[00:58:43] and they're like

[00:58:44] well we don't have any money for that

[00:58:46] I'm like okay

[00:58:47] I'll get you a program director

[00:58:48] now what

[00:58:50] oh wow

[00:58:50] if I had a program

[00:58:51] I would just focus on this and that

[00:58:53] okay that's not a huge expense

[00:58:57] but you have to start thinking that way

[00:58:59] and not do everything yourself

[00:59:01] because you have a good idea

[00:59:03] and this was a charity that was

[00:59:05] kind of they weren't struggling

[00:59:06] but they were kind of just going

[00:59:07] getting going and I really liked the concept

[00:59:10] but they have since become very popular

[00:59:13] and are doing really well

[00:59:16] You know what I love about that story is

[00:59:20] that you are able to take

[00:59:23] what you experienced and learned

[00:59:26] building a for-profit company

[00:59:28] and helping apply that

[00:59:31] having a vision

[00:59:33] and putting the pieces in place

[00:59:34] and persevering

[00:59:36] when there wasn't any money

[00:59:37] and figuring out a way

[00:59:39] so you step in now

[00:59:41] and not only help provide money

[00:59:43] but help provide strategy

[00:59:45] and a way to look at

[00:59:47] not-for-profits right

[00:59:49] or making a difference

[00:59:50] and so I love that

[00:59:52] you know that's a phenomenal legacy

[00:59:54] and a way to take what you've learned

[00:59:56] over the years

[00:59:57] and apply it in new context

[01:00:00] Marty, this has been delightful

[01:00:02] I'm again looking forward to seeing you

[01:00:04] later this week in person

[01:00:05] but I've really enjoyed our conversation

[01:00:08] what a great legacy

[01:00:10] what a great story

[01:00:13] you and your wife have created

[01:00:15] an amazing company

[01:00:17] and now you're spreading that

[01:00:18] into serving a lot of others

[01:00:21] through philanthropy

[01:00:22] so I commend you

[01:00:23] and congratulate you for all that

[01:00:26] before we go

[01:00:27] I always ask my guest

[01:00:29] if they had one piece of advice

[01:00:30] for our audience

[01:00:31] knowing a lot of our audience

[01:00:33] is made up of entrepreneurs

[01:00:35] who are out there

[01:00:36] trying to figure it out

[01:00:37] or they're hoping

[01:00:39] to be out there

[01:00:39] trying to figure it out soon

[01:00:41] maybe they're very early stage

[01:00:43] in the ideas

[01:00:44] or maybe they're already running companies

[01:00:47] what would that one piece of advice be?

[01:00:52] It's a story

[01:00:54] so I you know

[01:00:56] when I was really young

[01:00:57] I used to go with my dad

[01:00:59] to an ice cream store

[01:01:01] we would go maybe once a month

[01:01:03] you know twice a month

[01:01:05] and he always buy an ice cream sandwich

[01:01:07] and he would

[01:01:08] whoever broke the ice cream sandwich

[01:01:10] you'd get the pick

[01:01:11] whether you wanted

[01:01:12] the one in the right hand

[01:01:13] or the one in the left hand

[01:01:15] well one day

[01:01:16] he broke off a really small piece

[01:01:18] but he pushed it way out ahead

[01:01:22] and of course I grabbed

[01:01:24] that piece

[01:01:25] and I opened it up

[01:01:26] and it was this little

[01:01:28] kind of half-edge one inch thing

[01:01:31] and I was like

[01:01:33] that's unfair

[01:01:34] you know

[01:01:35] you got the way bigger piece

[01:01:37] and he had a way of kind of schooling me

[01:01:42] through things

[01:01:43] and he was like well

[01:01:44] how do you think

[01:01:45] the other person feels?

[01:01:47] You know

[01:01:48] we were going to share this

[01:01:49] so don't you think

[01:01:50] we should have split it as evenly as possible

[01:01:53] and I was like

[01:01:55] well

[01:01:56] you know I didn't know that you were

[01:01:58] you know you had pushed the T says

[01:02:00] yeah cause you were greedy

[01:02:01] you wanted to grab that bigger piece

[01:02:03] but you really didn't think about

[01:02:05] the consequences for the other person

[01:02:07] you just felt

[01:02:08] hey

[01:02:09] I want to get this

[01:02:09] not that I would get the smaller piece

[01:02:12] and then

[01:02:13] he also said

[01:02:15] you didn't ask me to open my hand

[01:02:17] the greed just had you grab it

[01:02:19] you didn't want the facts

[01:02:20] you didn't ask to look at it

[01:02:22] you just took what you thought was the bigger piece

[01:02:25] so

[01:02:26] I kind of learned you know one

[01:02:28] gotta learn how to share

[01:02:30] two don't be greedy

[01:02:31] and three you gotta do due diligence

[01:02:33] and kind of look at everything

[01:02:35] because money

[01:02:36] money and things

[01:02:37] you know you gotta do your investigating

[01:02:39] and do your homework

[01:02:42] and I kind of learned

[01:02:44] a pretty good

[01:02:45] bunch of good lessons from him

[01:02:47] but that was one of them

[01:02:49] I love that story

[01:02:51] that is phenomenal

[01:02:52] and like you said

[01:02:53] packed with lessons

[01:02:55] that help us all

[01:02:56] and

[01:02:56] you know at the end of the day

[01:02:58] if we create a situation where

[01:03:00] we win and

[01:03:02] the other party wins

[01:03:03] what a great outcome that is right

[01:03:05] right and

[01:03:06] what a great

[01:03:07] way we can feel about that

[01:03:08] thank you Marty

[01:03:09] this has been great

[01:03:10] where can our audience find out more about you

[01:03:13] or follow you

[01:03:15] or connect with you

[01:03:16] right now

[01:03:18] I'm at

[01:03:18] eclarehealth.com

[01:03:20] we make

[01:03:21] healthy

[01:03:22] better for you

[01:03:23] bars

[01:03:24] and health bars

[01:03:25] and chocolate bars

[01:03:27] and so if you

[01:03:28] look up our website

[01:03:29] the brand is called Cascade Chocolate

[01:03:32] and it's out there

[01:03:33] but either one of those two things

[01:03:35] you can find our website

[01:03:36] and

[01:03:37] you can find me

[01:03:38] I'm there trying to think up the next big idea

[01:03:41] that's wonderful

[01:03:42] and you know we're gonna have to have another one of these

[01:03:44] to talk about

[01:03:46] this product

[01:03:46] and this company

[01:03:47] because obviously

[01:03:49] you're not stopping

[01:03:50] so

[01:03:51] thank you again Marty

[01:03:52] for

[01:03:53] being with me today

[01:03:54] thank you for having me

[01:03:57] if you enjoyed this episode

[01:03:58] and would like to learn more about entrepreneurship

[01:04:01] we would love it if you hit that subscribe button

[01:04:04] thank you so much for listening

[01:04:06] to this episode of In Factor