Your host, Sri Chellappa, talks with the Founder of Sand & Salt Escapes, Max Schneider. Burnout is a term we hear often, but what does it truly look like? For Max, it was a harrowing experience marked by anxiety attacks and physical manifestations like shingles. The root cause? There is a misalignment between his personal values and his work. This internal conflict, coupled with a disregard for the importance of rest, led him down a path of mental and physical exhaustion.
As a consultant with over a decade of experience, Max has witnessed the unique pressures that leaders face. They absorb the emotional weight of their teams, striving to meet high expectations while navigating complex interpersonal dynamics. This relentless pursuit of performance can be a one-way ticket to burnout, affecting not just the individual leader but the entire organization.
Max's advice to companies is unequivocal: prioritize the well-being of your talent, especially your leaders. It's not about superficial perks; it's about a fundamental shift in how we support high performers. Engaged employees who feel cared for are less likely to leave, making well-being a strategic investment.
To learn more about Max's work, click HERE and HERE.
Think you'd be a great guest on the show? Apply HERE.
Want to learn more about Sri's work at Engagedly? Check out his website at https://engagedly.com/.
[00:00:02] People First Organizations will win in the future of work.
[00:00:05] The only real asset is your people. We all want her personal work.
[00:00:09] HR led organization is...
[00:00:11] I'm sorry, but leaders don't lead empty desks and empty shop floors.
[00:00:17] Welcome to the People Strategy Leaders Show.
[00:00:19] I am your host Srikant Chellappa, founder and president of Engage-Li
[00:00:23] and a serial entrepreneur in technology, films and music.
[00:00:27] This is where we talk to people leaders, business strategists
[00:00:30] and organizational savants about leading in the time of change.
[00:00:34] What is working, what is not working and more importantly,
[00:00:38] what we should be thinking about.
[00:00:40] Stick around to the end of the show. We will reveal how you can be our next guest.
[00:00:44] And now let's engage.
[00:00:47] Hello and welcome to People Strategy Leaders Podcast.
[00:00:50] This is Srikant Chellappa, your host.
[00:00:53] Today I'm joined with Max Schneider.
[00:00:56] Max's story is one of profound transformation.
[00:00:59] After experiencing burnout firsthand, he took a leap of faith
[00:01:02] and embarked on a journey to Costa Rica where the idea of for sand and salt escapes was born.
[00:01:09] With over a decade of experience in consulting and a personal journey of overcoming burnout,
[00:01:14] Max is on a mission to transform the way high achieving professionals approach their well-being.
[00:01:20] His approach is grounded in the belief that investing in the well-being of individuals
[00:01:24] ultimately leads to greater organizational success.
[00:01:28] Through immersive retreats and off-sites, Max helps participants unwind,
[00:01:33] reconnect with themselves and find synergy with their peers in setting beyond the ordinary.
[00:01:39] Welcome to the show, Max. It is such a pleasure to have you.
[00:01:42] Thank you, Srikant. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:01:45] So, Max, before we jump into the topic of the leadership
[00:01:49] and what it impacts burnout has on leadership,
[00:01:52] I do want to first really try to understand from your first experience
[00:01:57] and you experienced burnout in your previous career role that you had.
[00:02:02] What does a burnout look like and what causes burnout in the first place?
[00:02:06] Burnout, for me, looked like anxiety attacks at airports.
[00:02:10] It looked like anxiety attacks after calls.
[00:02:14] And when you're on a Zoom call and everything starts just coming into a funnel
[00:02:19] and you can no longer see and it's white and fuzzy in your heart's racing,
[00:02:23] burnout for me looked like shingles.
[00:02:25] Max, it was a very physical manifestation of a lot of mental stress that I was experiencing
[00:02:33] and that was really the tipping point for me.
[00:02:36] And you asked the question of what causes burnout.
[00:02:40] What causes burnout? Yeah, exactly.
[00:02:41] What causes burnout because you were a successful consultant.
[00:02:44] So it wasn't like you were hurting for money or your career was in jeopardy
[00:02:48] or you're looking to lose your job or things of its nature.
[00:02:51] So what was causing burnout and what typically causes burnout for what you've seen?
[00:02:56] Yeah, so for me what caused it was a couple of things.
[00:03:00] One, I was working so hard at something that in the end didn't align to who I was as a person.
[00:03:10] Above the organization had a phenomenal experience where I was
[00:03:13] but my personal values didn't feel reflected in the work
[00:03:18] and it was this tension that existed where I was working so hard
[00:03:21] and giving all of myself to something that ultimately didn't have that same type of love back for me.
[00:03:30] So that was a really important piece of the puzzle for me.
[00:03:34] It was understanding and I know you just had this conversation with your prior guest
[00:03:37] about the importance of values
[00:03:39] and when I really took a step back and understood what my values were
[00:03:43] they weren't reflected in the work that I was doing.
[00:03:46] So that was a really big piece of that internal tension that existed.
[00:03:50] And outside of that I also didn't rest.
[00:03:54] I pushed so hard.
[00:03:56] I was hot growing up because I think a lot of us are to push through things
[00:03:59] to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and I didn't have
[00:04:02] and I was really good at doing that.
[00:04:04] I was really good at pushing through.
[00:04:06] What I wasn't good at was finding the yin to that yang
[00:04:09] and understanding how do I rest?
[00:04:11] How do I actually let my body recover
[00:04:13] and understand that a lot of these mental stresses that I'm putting on myself
[00:04:16] are having a true physiological impact on my body
[00:04:19] and I have to give my body the space to recover
[00:04:22] just the same way that you would after a workout.
[00:04:24] I didn't have that understanding of the importance of rest at that time.
[00:04:29] Yeah, and we talk about burnout a lot in our industry
[00:04:32] especially tech industry and startups which I am part of one.
[00:04:38] We frequently talk about employee burnout from their role
[00:04:43] but we don't talk about leadership burnout as much
[00:04:46] which is an important aspect.
[00:04:48] They have a lot of stress in their role
[00:04:51] especially if you are a CEO or a C level person
[00:04:54] you have usually very high expectations in your role
[00:04:58] you have a board that is breathing down your neck
[00:05:01] you have stakeholders that are asking your employees
[00:05:05] may or may not do what you want them to do
[00:05:08] you have unhappy customers
[00:05:10] or happy customers that ask for more
[00:05:12] so you are getting hit from many sites
[00:05:14] which typically people don't appreciate as much I feel
[00:05:17] so can you talk a little bit about leadership burnout
[00:05:20] and what that looks like from your point of view
[00:05:24] because you work with a lot of leaders as well, right?
[00:05:27] I do, yes. That's where we specialize
[00:05:30] we generally work with executive and executive teams
[00:05:33] for the off-sites that we run
[00:05:35] and that happens to be also a lot of the folks who come down on our retreats
[00:05:38] the leaders are in a particularly challenging position
[00:05:41] because you are, as a great leader
[00:05:45] are taking on a lot of the emotional experience
[00:05:48] of their employees and the teams that they're working with
[00:05:51] and the teams that they're supporting
[00:05:53] they are really getting down into the trenches
[00:05:55] and when you take on that emotional energy
[00:05:59] there is a big piece to that that impacts you
[00:06:02] and when you think about the great leaders that you've had throughout your career
[00:06:06] and the type of leader you aspire to be
[00:06:08] for most of us it is that empathetic leader
[00:06:10] that leader who can be there to support their team
[00:06:13] not just as professionals but as human beings
[00:06:16] and that takes on a lot for a leader
[00:06:19] that we need to learn how to process that
[00:06:21] how to sit with that
[00:06:22] and how to give ourselves that opportunity to really slow down
[00:06:25] I think another element of it is leaders
[00:06:29] particularly effective leaders are high performers
[00:06:31] and high performance culture in a lot of circumstances
[00:06:35] is burnout culture
[00:06:36] we continue to push
[00:06:38] we are all we have these high expectations of ourselves
[00:06:41] and no matter where we get to
[00:06:44] we always continue to push those higher
[00:06:46] we continue to push those higher
[00:06:48] and that's an immense amount of stress
[00:06:51] so when we talk about what that means for a leader
[00:06:54] they're not just having to perform themselves
[00:06:56] their teams and also their individuals
[00:06:59] they're taking on a lot to be able to navigate
[00:07:02] and that opens you up to being able to burn out much more
[00:07:05] because those tensions continue to rise
[00:07:07] and it's just a lot to carry
[00:07:09] and organizations right now I don't think are doing enough
[00:07:11] to support their leaders
[00:07:14] in a way that allows them to take care of themselves
[00:07:17] and to not burn out
[00:07:19] yeah I think they expect leaders
[00:07:22] hey you are the grown-up person in the room
[00:07:24] you're the leader
[00:07:25] you figure it out right
[00:07:27] focus on getting results
[00:07:29] focus on retaining your people
[00:07:31] focus on keeping our customers happy
[00:07:33] and I think that's always not the case
[00:07:36] in fact it's seldom the case
[00:07:39] because they need some assistant too
[00:07:41] and sometimes it's a mentor who helps them
[00:07:43] sometimes it is taking a break
[00:07:45] and saying hey I just need a break
[00:07:47] I need to step away from my computer
[00:07:49] my phone, my emails
[00:07:51] and just try to not focus on work for a few days
[00:07:54] or whatever that is
[00:07:55] so in that sense what advice do you give
[00:07:58] to companies
[00:07:59] and I don't know if that's something you do
[00:08:01] but would you give to the companies
[00:08:03] who may not be looking at this
[00:08:05] as an important factor
[00:08:08] yeah we can look at it through two different lenses
[00:08:10] one is an altruistic lens
[00:08:12] and the other one is actually making a business case for it
[00:08:15] and I always like to lead with a little bit more of the altruistic lens
[00:08:19] because we at the core of everything we do
[00:08:22] we are human beings
[00:08:24] we layer on these titles of
[00:08:26] Senior Vice President
[00:08:28] of a partner
[00:08:30] of a parent
[00:08:32] of a sibling of our role in the community
[00:08:34] we always layer on these titles
[00:08:36] but at the core of everything we are human beings
[00:08:38] and organizations that are
[00:08:40] asking a lot of their
[00:08:42] talent at the same time
[00:08:44] need to be providing back to them
[00:08:46] in the same way
[00:08:48] so when you start
[00:08:50] to think about what organizations are doing right now
[00:08:52] gym memberships
[00:08:54] discounted gym memberships
[00:08:56] healthy food in the break room
[00:08:58] these types of ideas that are good
[00:09:00] in nature but
[00:09:02] they're frankly table stakes
[00:09:04] and they're not moving the needle
[00:09:06] when you give a discounted gym membership
[00:09:08] you're not changing behavior of anybody
[00:09:10] you're just discounting membership of the person who goes to the gym
[00:09:12] you're giving healthy food in the kitchen
[00:09:14] it's the same person who's going to pack the healthy food
[00:09:16] that's going to be snacking at that
[00:09:18] you're not fundamentally changing any behavior
[00:09:20] you're not helping them understand that
[00:09:22] the way that they need to support their talent
[00:09:24] when they're asking a lot
[00:09:26] particularly of their leaders
[00:09:28] highly compensated people deserve to be highly cared for
[00:09:30] and if you don't do that
[00:09:32] they're going to burn out
[00:09:34] they're going to leave the organization
[00:09:36] and that's what we really lean in
[00:09:38] and help them do
[00:09:40] then we can also look at it from a business lens too
[00:09:42] and we can make there's
[00:09:44] all the data in the world is out there
[00:09:46] Gallup recently did a survey that said that employees
[00:09:48] who are not really able to read their employer cares about their overall being
[00:09:50] are 69% less
[00:09:52] likely to search for a new job
[00:09:54] three times more likely to be engaged at work
[00:09:56] and five times more likely to strongly
[00:09:58] advocate for their employer
[00:10:00] as a place to work
[00:10:02] the business case is there for it
[00:10:04] but ultimately this is an issue of human beings
[00:10:06] and taking care of people
[00:10:08] because taking care
[00:10:10] of those who give a lot to you
[00:10:12] is also the right thing to do
[00:10:14] I want to circle back to what
[00:10:16] you said earlier based on your own experience
[00:10:18] which is getting your work aligned
[00:10:20] to your values, your sense of purpose
[00:10:22] I talked a lot about that in many of my
[00:10:24] podcasts as well how purpose alignment
[00:10:26] is extremely important for people
[00:10:28] to stay and perform better
[00:10:30] in the organization, find fulfillment
[00:10:32] in their roles
[00:10:34] so talk a little bit about value alignment
[00:10:36] as a driver of
[00:10:38] a burner and what can people do about that
[00:10:40] yeah so
[00:10:42] when most of us
[00:10:44] don't know what our values are
[00:10:46] we could probably list off a few of the top of our head
[00:10:48] that are
[00:10:50] seem to sound right but
[00:10:52] to actually do the work of understanding what are your values
[00:10:54] there's a lot of ways you can go about doing that
[00:10:56] but I think it's a really important piece
[00:10:58] of starting out and figuring out
[00:11:00] is my role
[00:11:02] at work fulfilling for me
[00:11:04] as a human being
[00:11:06] and that fulfillment, that sense of purpose to your point
[00:11:08] can help a lot when things do get
[00:11:10] tough, when you do have to work harder
[00:11:12] you know what you're working for and it's aligned
[00:11:14] to who you are as a human being
[00:11:16] so understanding those values are
[00:11:18] an incredibly important part of it
[00:11:20] when I started Sand & Salt Escapes it was one of the first exercises that I did
[00:11:22] because I wanted to build the company
[00:11:24] not just around
[00:11:26] professional values but around my values
[00:11:28] as a human being and see those reflected
[00:11:30] in the organization because that has also
[00:11:32] allowed me, when times are tough
[00:11:34] when you're working those late hours
[00:11:36] and dealing with that stress
[00:11:38] you understand what that actually means
[00:11:40] for you as an individual
[00:11:42] and as
[00:11:44] for the organization itself
[00:11:46] So let's talk about one of the aspects
[00:11:48] that you focus on in your
[00:11:50] retreats that you do for
[00:11:52] leaders and other people in businesses
[00:11:54] the importance of
[00:11:56] taking rest
[00:11:58] right, especially for high performance
[00:12:00] everybody should take rest but if you're
[00:12:02] especially in the high performance culture
[00:12:04] rest is considered
[00:12:06] you're slacking off
[00:12:08] maybe they might not say it but that's what they're thinking
[00:12:10] So
[00:12:12] talk about
[00:12:14] what is the impact and why is it important
[00:12:16] for high performance culture
[00:12:18] to consciously think about taking rest
[00:12:20] and not when they're burnt out
[00:12:22] We
[00:12:24] so we run our retreats in Costa Rica
[00:12:26] in Osara and it's a beautiful surfing community
[00:12:28] amazing, very talented
[00:12:30] surfers and a lot of very talented
[00:12:32] surf coaches so I was
[00:12:34] recently down there chatting with
[00:12:36] a gentleman we're friends with who's a high performance
[00:12:38] surf coach and he's talking
[00:12:40] about working with his athletes
[00:12:42] who are on professional
[00:12:44] surf tours and trying to make it to the WSL
[00:12:46] and he
[00:12:48] we were talking about this exact idea
[00:12:50] and what he shared was
[00:12:52] that the harder you work
[00:12:54] the higher performer you are
[00:12:56] the harder you also have
[00:12:58] to rest because you're so focused
[00:13:00] on those nuances, those details
[00:13:02] you're seeing things that others aren't
[00:13:04] you're able to do things that others can't
[00:13:06] so that rest
[00:13:08] also has to be just as
[00:13:10] deliberate, just as hard
[00:13:12] as the work that you're doing
[00:13:14] and that
[00:13:16] I left a conversation really
[00:13:18] thinking about that and having that really
[00:13:20] sit in my head and as it applies then
[00:13:22] to the professional
[00:13:24] environment when we have leaders who are
[00:13:26] high performers who are working
[00:13:28] their tails off, who are connecting dots
[00:13:30] building relationships whatever it is
[00:13:32] that they're doing in their role
[00:13:34] that others just simply can't
[00:13:36] they have to honor that and respect
[00:13:38] that because that truly is a gift
[00:13:40] that gift also needs
[00:13:42] the balance of the other side
[00:13:44] because if we continue to perform
[00:13:46] and we're spending 99% of our time
[00:13:48] performing and 1% of our time resting
[00:13:50] it's a very imbalanced equation
[00:13:52] that doesn't need to be 50-50
[00:13:54] but we do need to pay attention
[00:13:56] to those physical signs
[00:13:58] of feeling worn down
[00:14:00] of feeling disconnected
[00:14:02] and realize that's actually
[00:14:04] it's not a detriment, it's actually a gift
[00:14:06] because we have the ability
[00:14:08] to perform at a very high level
[00:14:10] which is causing us to have this need
[00:14:12] to also have to rest
[00:14:14] hard at the same time
[00:14:16] If you look at people like Ilan Musk
[00:14:18] who the stories
[00:14:20] he hear about when he was trying to
[00:14:22] make Tesla successful
[00:14:24] and I'm sure he's still doing that
[00:14:26] sleeping on the shop floor working 7 days a week
[00:14:28] 80 and 80 100 hours a week
[00:14:30] so what is your viewpoint on that?
[00:14:32] because as a leader
[00:14:34] I'm sure he was probably losing his mind
[00:14:36] yeah
[00:14:38] obviously it was not there
[00:14:40] and didn't witness anything
[00:14:42] so I would only be hypothesizing
[00:14:44] on the impact but my view
[00:14:46] from the outside
[00:14:48] it's terrible
[00:14:50] it sets a terrible example not just for the Tesla employees
[00:14:52] but also for
[00:14:54] others in similar industries
[00:14:56] we were sitting here talking about it
[00:14:58] it's been on the news and those types of messages
[00:15:00] get set put out
[00:15:02] people read them, people internalize them
[00:15:04] and it sets this example of Ilan Musk
[00:15:06] one of the most brilliant thinkers of our generation
[00:15:08] behaves this way
[00:15:10] so I need to behave this way too
[00:15:12] if I want to be a brilliant thinker
[00:15:14] if I want to try to accomplish things that he has
[00:15:16] and I think it's really misleading
[00:15:18] I think it's very unfair
[00:15:20] to people just to his team
[00:15:22] and to their employees in that organization
[00:15:24] laying off
[00:15:26] I think 1400% of the workforce
[00:15:28] is getting laid off this week
[00:15:30] so it's not necessarily
[00:15:32] the important thing to think about
[00:15:34] is that not everyone is Ilan Musk
[00:15:36] and not everybody wants to be Ilan Musk either
[00:15:38] so you have to build your own framework
[00:15:40] what is your level of tolerance of stress
[00:15:42] your level of tolerance of work
[00:15:44] and everybody has different tolerances
[00:15:46] not everyone can run a marathon
[00:15:48] in two hours in one minute
[00:15:50] take four hours, some people take six hours
[00:15:52] and never run one
[00:15:54] so there are different ways to
[00:15:56] really look at that and say
[00:15:58] just because Ilan Musk doesn't mean I have to do it
[00:16:00] or everyone has to do it
[00:16:02] that is not the standard everybody has to adhere to
[00:16:04] because people are different
[00:16:06] and people have their own limitations
[00:16:08] and own thresholds on what causes burnout
[00:16:10] some people can handle a lot of stress
[00:16:12] and have ways to manage it
[00:16:14] and some people can't
[00:16:16] and that's just how people are built
[00:16:18] totally agree
[00:16:20] and at that point too
[00:16:22] some people have the tools to manage it
[00:16:24] building those tools as a high performing leader
[00:16:26] finding that time to rest
[00:16:28] understanding what does it actually mean
[00:16:30] sitting and watching TV in the evening time
[00:16:32] isn't resting, your brain is still very much engaged
[00:16:34] so what really are we doing
[00:16:36] to build those tools
[00:16:38] and those skill sets to rest
[00:16:40] because it truly is a skill set to rest effectively
[00:16:42] I think I might need to learn that skill set myself
[00:16:44] but talking about that
[00:16:46] why don't you educate me and the listeners
[00:16:48] in the ways leaders can rest
[00:16:50] that you've seen not scientifically
[00:16:52] but at least unscientifically effective
[00:16:54] yeah so I'll break it down
[00:16:56] into some smaller day to day ways
[00:16:58] and then some bigger ways
[00:17:00] that I think also need to happen
[00:17:02] so in your daily rhythm
[00:17:04] there's a lot of things that you can build in
[00:17:06] meditation has been one practice
[00:17:08] for me that has been absolutely profound
[00:17:10] to figure out how do I
[00:17:12] build this ability to be present
[00:17:14] to understand how to choose
[00:17:16] over another how to allow my mind
[00:17:18] to truly quiet and tune
[00:17:20] into what's going on
[00:17:22] so meditation has been a phenomenal practice for me
[00:17:24] journaling is another one
[00:17:26] you can do on a daily basis where we don't have
[00:17:28] any inputs going on we can just focus
[00:17:30] on understanding what are the
[00:17:32] thoughts that are coming into my head or the feelings
[00:17:34] or the sensations and being able to capture those
[00:17:36] phoneless walks is another one
[00:17:38] every day I like to if I'm working from home
[00:17:40] I get up and I'll go between
[00:17:42] 20 and 45 minutes leave my phone at home
[00:17:44] and just go outside and walk and it's so
[00:17:46] ridiculously liberating to think
[00:17:48] I'm just walking out of my apartment for 20
[00:17:50] minutes without my phone
[00:17:52] and you're looking around oh my god is my breaking the wall
[00:17:54] this is incredible it's just the freedom
[00:17:56] that comes with that because we never separate
[00:17:58] from our phones yoga is another wonderful
[00:18:00] practice to be able to just slow down
[00:18:02] calm the body and do some more regenerative
[00:18:04] activities there are some examples of smaller
[00:18:06] things that we can do in daily
[00:18:08] I think also there's some bigger things that
[00:18:10] we need to do too in terms of taking that rest
[00:18:12] of the day and trying to implement where
[00:18:14] for example my wife and I just got back from
[00:18:16] we live out in Los Angeles
[00:18:18] and we went out to Joshua Tree for 11 days
[00:18:20] and we did
[00:18:22] so it was actually we did we hiked a marathon
[00:18:24] in a day which is a lot of fun so it's still
[00:18:26] like that pushing trying to
[00:18:28] achieve peace of it but then the back half
[00:18:30] of the week we did nothing
[00:18:32] we had no plans we just
[00:18:34] woke up when we wanted to we did our
[00:18:36] mindfulness practice we sat
[00:18:38] and just stared at the mountains we talked
[00:18:40] about the car and that kind of
[00:18:42] restful experience is
[00:18:44] think about your mind like a snow globe
[00:18:46] and we're just constantly shaking it up
[00:18:48] constantly shaking it up and when we can
[00:18:50] pause and just let that
[00:18:52] dust settle we can start to see some
[00:18:54] things and understand some thoughts and
[00:18:56] feelings just different things that come up
[00:18:58] that we can't get without that type
[00:19:00] of truly intentional
[00:19:02] rest. Yeah I
[00:19:04] used to meditate when I was younger which
[00:19:06] is weird because people can be
[00:19:08] it's hard to be resting when you're younger
[00:19:10] but I was trained
[00:19:12] to do that as part of some of the yoga
[00:19:14] we did growing up.
[00:19:16] Now as I'm older I find it much harder
[00:19:18] to do meditation so I do this long walks
[00:19:20] phoneless long walks I feel like that's
[00:19:22] actually at least I'm feeling like I'm doing
[00:19:24] something I'm walking but my mind
[00:19:26] is working in thinking
[00:19:28] about ideas and I get some of my best ideas
[00:19:30] when I'm walking obviously
[00:19:32] I don't know if that's called rest because
[00:19:34] I'm still thinking about work and some of the other things
[00:19:36] but maybe walking and just observing
[00:19:38] the trees and the birds
[00:19:40] and other people and
[00:19:42] people sitting on their sidewalks having coffee
[00:19:44] whatever that is maybe focusing
[00:19:46] on that might be a better way to rest than
[00:19:48] thinking about solving a problem that you're facing that day.
[00:19:50] Yeah there's degrees to all of it
[00:19:52] and I had the opportunity
[00:19:54] to get a meal recently with
[00:19:56] a gentleman who's head mindset coach
[00:19:58] at one of the big
[00:20:00] parallel manufacturers
[00:20:02] for sporting equipment on sporting clothes
[00:20:04] and while we were there
[00:20:06] we were talking about meditation and he does
[00:20:08] multiple week long meditation
[00:20:10] retreats and totally silent retreats
[00:20:12] that's something that I aspire to be able
[00:20:14] to do one day so I was asking him
[00:20:16] what that experience is like
[00:20:18] just internally to go from
[00:20:20] the start of that
[00:20:22] retreat to the end of it
[00:20:24] and what he shared with me
[00:20:26] was that if you think about your mind
[00:20:28] like a pond
[00:20:30] every input that we get every day
[00:20:32] like throwing a rock into the pond
[00:20:34] the text messages
[00:20:36] the emails that we're getting when we go
[00:20:38] when we drive like the horns that are honking
[00:20:40] the music, the podcasts that we're listening to
[00:20:42] everything we're throwing rocks into the pond
[00:20:44] some smaller some bigger but we're kicking up water
[00:20:46] it's fricking chaotic
[00:20:48] by the end of the day
[00:20:50] every day and we do this day after day
[00:20:52] and when you start reducing those inputs
[00:20:54] like you're doing with a phoneless walk
[00:20:56] and you don't have
[00:20:58] your cell phone on you you don't have
[00:21:00] just that feeling of waiting for those inputs
[00:21:03] all of a sudden that water
[00:21:05] starts to calm
[00:21:07] and you can see
[00:21:09] it's glassy you can see reflections off of it
[00:21:11] and when you do that for long enough
[00:21:13] you can also start to look down into the water
[00:21:15] and the muck starts to settle at the bottom of the pond
[00:21:18] you can start to see contours that you didn't know were there
[00:21:20] you start to notice logs or rocks
[00:21:22] but you get a sense
[00:21:24] of what's going on underneath the surface
[00:21:26] so when we're talking about rest
[00:21:28] that's a really big component of it
[00:21:30] is how are we reducing the inputs
[00:21:32] that we receive every day
[00:21:34] to just let
[00:21:36] the water settle
[00:21:38] to let the muck hit the bottom and see
[00:21:40] what's there and get to better know ourselves
[00:21:42] in the process and that's it
[00:21:44] the phoneless walk is an awesome example
[00:21:46] of doing that while sure yeah we're still thinking
[00:21:48] but there's a lot of value in that too
[00:21:50] yeah yeah max one
[00:21:52] last thing before we
[00:21:54] end here, so you do retreats
[00:21:56] for leaders and people
[00:21:58] at different businesses
[00:22:00] so talk about your
[00:22:02] operation exactly what do you guys
[00:22:04] do there to provide that level of rest
[00:22:06] and rejuvenation
[00:22:08] for people who are
[00:22:10] getting close to get burnt out
[00:22:12] hopefully they're coming there before they actually get burnt out
[00:22:14] yeah absolutely
[00:22:16] and that's often times what we find too is we want to prevent people from getting that place
[00:22:18] so on
[00:22:20] one side of the business we run retreats
[00:22:22] in Nosara Costa Rica every year
[00:22:24] where we focus on movement, mindfulness and conversation
[00:22:26] so we take care of everything
[00:22:28] for the guests from the moment that they sign up
[00:22:30] and decide to join the retreat
[00:22:32] every
[00:22:34] detail of their transportation
[00:22:36] everything that they're doing during the day
[00:22:38] we have a very thoughtful balance of space and structure
[00:22:40] but we're doing movement classes on the beach in the morning
[00:22:42] we're doing different mindfulness classes every afternoon
[00:22:44] so things like sound baths, breath work
[00:22:46] painting, yoga and then
[00:22:48] we're doing facilitated conversations three of the evenings
[00:22:50] where we get a chance to just slow down
[00:22:52] and synthesize what's happening and integrate that
[00:22:54] and the other thing that we do is
[00:22:56] we work with executive and intact teams
[00:22:58] hosting off-sites
[00:23:00] for their teams where when we show up
[00:23:02] we check titles of the door
[00:23:04] there's no decks, no spreadsheets
[00:23:06] we just show up as human beings, focus on ourselves as human beings
[00:23:08] so we have no formal business conversations
[00:23:10] but we're doing things like learning about mindfulness
[00:23:12] not just
[00:23:14] practicing it but understanding
[00:23:16] why do we focus on our breath
[00:23:18] in when we're trying to be more
[00:23:20] mindful and how do we think
[00:23:22] about that and just really
[00:23:24] demystifying a lot of what mindfulness is
[00:23:26] and getting a chance to
[00:23:28] build the skills around that while also connecting
[00:23:30] with each other in very deep and meaningful ways
[00:23:32] so we're still doing things like
[00:23:34] depending upon the group we customize everything
[00:23:36] but we'll still be doing movement
[00:23:38] we'll still be doing mindfulness and things like meditation
[00:23:40] breath work, sound and then we do
[00:23:42] facilitated conversations to help the
[00:23:44] guests really connect with themselves
[00:23:46] and each other in very deep and
[00:23:48] profound ways
[00:23:50] Excellent. Thanks a lot
[00:23:52] Max, I hope more people take advantage
[00:23:54] of not only your
[00:23:56] approach to rest and rejuvenation
[00:23:58] in Costa Rica but maybe they can do
[00:24:00] small things like you said
[00:24:02] on a daily basis and take that movement
[00:24:04] of breaks and not try to emulate
[00:24:06] Elon Musk in their life
[00:24:08] With that I appreciate
[00:24:10] you being on this podcast
[00:24:12] Thank you very much. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:24:14] Shree Chalapa here. Thank you so much
[00:24:16] for listening to the People Strategy Leaders
[00:24:18] podcast. If you are a successful leader
[00:24:20] or a people strategist
[00:24:22] who would like to be on this program
[00:24:24] please visit Engagedly.com
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[00:25:00] Thanks for listening. We will see you
[00:25:02] next time. And thank you to
[00:25:04] Patrick Ramsey sound engineer
[00:25:06] at Kalinga production studios
[00:25:08] for recording and mixing this show