Your host, Sri Chellappa, talks with the CEO of the Association for Project Management, Adam Boddison. Adam discussed how project management extends beyond its technical roots to play a crucial role in strategic execution. Adam emphasized that project management should not be viewed as a niche specialty but rather as a set of tools and techniques that can significantly enhance a leader's ability to implement strategy effectively. He pointed out that the misconception of project management as overly technical often prevents leaders from fully appreciating its value in driving major change.
Adam delved into the reasons why many strategic initiatives fall short of their intended impact. Adam highlighted a shift in leadership roles, with leaders increasingly tasked with delivering substantial change. This shift necessitates a strong command of project management skills to ensure successful strategy execution. He discussed the concept of "projectification" in leadership, noting that the focus on leadership development programs has sometimes overshadowed the critical importance of execution and management skills.
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[00:00:16] Welcome to the People Strategy Leaders Show.
[00:00:19] I'm your host Srikalappa founder and president of Engageedly and a serial entrepreneur in technology, films and music.
[00:00:27] This is where we talk to people leaders, business strategists and organizations of subanets about leading in the time of change.
[00:00:34] What is working, what is not working and more importantly, what we should be thinking about.
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[00:00:47] Hello and welcome to People Strategy Leaders Podcast.
[00:00:50] I am Srikalappa, your host.
[00:00:52] Today I'm joined with Adam Bodison.
[00:00:54] Adam Bodison currently serves as a chief executive of the Association of Project Management, APM.
[00:01:00] The Chartered Membership Body for Project Profession.
[00:01:04] Throughout his work at APM Adam spear hurts initiatives aimed at advancing the project profession to the highest standards.
[00:01:11] Beyond his work with APM Adam brings diverse experience to the table.
[00:01:15] A notable example being his tenure as CEO of NAA, CN Nasan National Association of Special Educational Needs,
[00:01:24] where he spearheaded a turnaround and growth strategy resulting in tenfold increase in membership over five years.
[00:01:31] Adam also served as a director of the Center for Professional Education at the University of Warwick.
[00:01:38] His diverse skills set also extends to clinical hypnotherapy.
[00:01:45] Showcase and his smartty disciplinary approach to education and leadership.
[00:01:49] You've got quite a bit of experience here, Adam. Welcome to the show.
[00:01:53] Thank you for having me. Yes, it's been a very career up to this point and long by that continued.
[00:01:58] Yeah, I know one of the things that interested was I found very interesting in your background is this whole,
[00:02:05] your background is a lot on project management, but it's also about executive leadership.
[00:02:10] And typically we don't conflate the two too much. We talk about project managers and then there's executive leaderships,
[00:02:16] people who drive vision and change and push the team forward and things like that.
[00:02:21] And the topic that we were discussing because they're looked at it separate.
[00:02:26] There are probably they shouldn't be and one other thing that we were talking about how many strategic initiatives fail because maybe of that.
[00:02:37] So can you talk about really starting talking about from a CEO or executive leadership perspective?
[00:02:42] Why do most or many strategic initiatives actually failed to fully realize their potential?
[00:02:48] Yes, thank you. Really great question.
[00:02:51] I think one of the things I would reflect on is before I join the association project management.
[00:02:56] I confess that I was ignorant to some of what I'm about to talk about myself in previous CEO and an executive leadership roles.
[00:03:04] And having joined the organization, I think I've been on this journey, a realisation journey to understand the project management.
[00:03:12] It isn't only a technical specialist area, it does have a generalist strategic execution aspect to it as well, which I think could be really helpful for many leaders.
[00:03:25] However, I think the profession itself has somewhat of an image problem it's seen as being very specialist, very technical and actually some of the roles are but lots of the roles are about delivery of change.
[00:03:37] And if there's one thing I know about most businesses is that leaders, particularly chief executives are being asked to deliver major change.
[00:03:46] In a way that wasn't the case, maybe 30, 40 years ago, we're probably lots of leadership roles where about mostly business as usual and maybe a small amount of change.
[00:03:55] I think that's a reverse now. So if we are saying that most leaders are asked to deliver change and to execute their strategies effectively,
[00:04:04] then I think project management has huge value to add. I think one of the things we talked about was this idea that some leaders think of everything as a project that they're doing and that's a really healthy way I think of approaching delivery, particularly strategy delivery.
[00:04:19] I think the big for me that often is missing when it comes to not just chief executives, but the C-suite more broadly is then recognizing that if we see it as a project, we can actually deploy formal project management tools, techniques and strategies that will help us to be more effective.
[00:04:37] And that's I think where the gap is. I think even the word management, I think itself is a problem over the years if you look at all of the research around the round leadership itself has become a good thing everybody wants to be a leader, there's lots of leadership development programs and courses.
[00:04:53] Management has got a bit of bad rep now, right? And project management has got a double problem because of the image thing I talked about before. So I think that's why I get left on the table.
[00:05:02] But I think many leaders would benefit from deploying those tools and techniques to improve strategy execution in their businesses.
[00:05:10] Yeah, I think this is a great point actually because many of them read too many leadership books and leadership podcasts listen a lot of leadership podcasts and articles and saying think about leadership as driving vision presenting a vision communicating your vision.
[00:05:27] All of that is true, but I add one thing to that personally from my own experience of being one and observing other leaders the best leaders, but at some point really good managers.
[00:05:41] And the good managers mean they're focused on executing something that might be very mundane may not be necessarily something visionary and earthshaking changes, but they knew how to progress through executing and managing people directly managing a project or different activities with them in making sure they were getting tons.
[00:06:02] And then not every manager good manager can be leader, but every good leader I believe needs be a good manager or has to have been a good manager and need to have good management techniques.
[00:06:13] And that's where you can have the great strategic vision you can have brilliant ideas right, you need just you said that you see this big vacuum in in in a market and you want to go and talk about that vacuum because there's a white space that you can go after.
[00:06:27] Somebody might have that a good leader might have that ideas, but if you don't execute on it fast enough that's a problem is that why you would say most strategic initiative fail because they had a vision and then they can figure out how to get in.
[00:06:43] I think it's that part of it, but I think the ideas themselves could be improved if you have some concept of what's possible in terms of delivery and what's not.
[00:06:54] Because sometimes I think there's this disconnect that happens in organizations with the leader that comes up with this great idea and probably those who have to execute on that idea saying, oh well yeah I wouldn't have done it like that.
[00:07:05] And while all of that gets resolved in an organization as you say the boat could sail and the opportunity in the moment is lost.
[00:07:12] I think you make a really interesting point around leaders having been through that phase of being good managers and having executed things well in the past.
[00:07:22] My observation from talking to lots of leaders now about their own organizations is that's disappearing within organizations.
[00:07:30] I've been talking about the projectification of leadership.
[00:07:33] Yeah actually there's a projectification of management so this is if you like that middle layer in organizations often the middle management they've got teams and things they're reporting to often senior people in the organization.
[00:07:45] But if they're overly obsessed with leadership and not with the execution piece which we would associate with management and the doing then actually that can be a problem in creative vacuum of the very experience that you're talking about for people to then go on to be right leader so this is not just a problem now.
[00:08:01] Well potentially we're creating a problem for the next generation of leaders as well who don't have that background you just talk to about so there are two interesting points to do raised one is.
[00:08:13] The refinement of the vision itself that is one of the reasons where if you don't refine it well because the vision and the ideas are so out of the realms of possibilities or they're just out there that it doesn't make sense.
[00:08:28] The second thing that you talked about is projectification of management and projectification of the work force leadership our touch upon those two things but let's talk about the first thing first in the sense of.
[00:08:41] There are a good vision to be realized execution is important but you're saying refinement of the ideas also important can you elaborate more on that.
[00:08:53] If I think about some of the project management tools and techniques so one of the things we talk about in project management is benefit realization.
[00:09:02] So that's not just about delivering something on time within budget to work the required specification that same let's look beyond that and say once we've built this new CRM it might be or once we've delivered this new product or service.
[00:09:18] Is it going to actually deliver on the vision that we expect it to is it going to deliver benefits to our customers for example.
[00:09:27] And that's the bit that sometimes can get a bit lost because everybody gets if you like obsessed about we will we must just deliver this thing as the leader said we must.
[00:09:36] Who is it that checking constantly throughout that actually the external landscape hasn't changed so much that the initial justification that initial business case hasn't changed sufficiently that we need to change who is it that whens the project is formally finished who is it senior within the organization that then make sure that new product or service.
[00:09:57] Actually is delivering on the benefits that we said it was going to do these are both the business case and the benefit realization about formal aspects of project management.
[00:10:09] And you fall within the kind of the the full project life cycle and if you took a more structured approach to leadership using those tools and techniques that definitely would not get lost because.
[00:10:21] The next big idea comes along or because there are challenges in the workforce or the external environment moves on that will be captured and the delivery aspect will evolve the idea will evolve and actually ultimately the benefits and the delivery of the benefits will evolve as well to make sure it did what it was set out to do.
[00:10:38] And because and one of the things you mentioned is that the change the speed of change has.
[00:10:44] In only been increasing in the last couple of decades and it's not getting better it's only getting worse if anything this people have to change so much faster now.
[00:10:54] So in your strategy timeline becomes an important variable what might be true today in terms of benefit realization of that initiative may not be true.
[00:11:05] And if your project doesn't get done on time and even if it does get on time you benefit realization that you think thought it would be may not be same because some other competitor came into play so some lost changed or the environment change maybe there was certainly just covered or some other event that caused the change.
[00:11:21] Then you are a recalibrate again and then move your project and your vision maybe slightly differently so that you can still stay true to benefit realization.
[00:11:31] Can you talk a little bit about how does agility and ability to make changes as you go important in this as well.
[00:11:40] Absolutely and I think there's two layers to this we've focused in our conversation so far about the kind of delivery aspect which is the kind of project management piece I think we're starting to touch now on what I would think of as project sponsorship outside of the project profession we think of that as governance corporate governance in an organization.
[00:11:57] And governance are often the layer of of the organization that's going to make some of the decisions that you've talked about they kind of go no go decisions that kind of stage gate decisions about whether we continue.
[00:12:08] I think one of the things I've noticed is just in any organization when I ask about the corporate governance and project sponsorship if I ask how many of those people who have those roles.
[00:12:20] I've had formal professional development or training to be effective in those roles. It's often the bit that's been missed out so the delivery side of things we've developed our workforce we've made sure they're well qualified and so on.
[00:12:33] When it comes to the governance we just assume that because somebody's senior in an organization they must know what good good governance looks like they must know how to make these go no go decisions.
[00:12:43] Gully cut this project dead because the landscape was changed or actually is it that we need to double down and put more investments of resource into this because it's still to apply for or something else.
[00:12:54] So for me that's that's an important aspect here in terms of the practical delivery side of things so yeah, it's the project delivery but also the kind of corporate governance the project sponsorship as well.
[00:13:05] Yeah, I haven't great example of this right if you went back two years ago they were a lot of tools out there companies out there building AI models and in a classic example is conversation intelligence right where you have a discussion and then you distal AI distals that down with and comes up with action items and some research that discussion and sentiment analysis things are nature.
[00:13:27] They were a lot of companies building that we looked into that as well hey we should build that into our platform and we started looking at different AI models some of the companies started hiring AI developers and started building the models and then.
[00:13:42] And then I am six months later opening I come started with this free tool, chat GPT three and then chat GPT four and then Gemini comes out from the Google and then zoom has commercial conversation intelligent build into it.
[00:13:57] So you're a project that you're spending probably hundreds of thousands of dollars or maybe millions no so longer it's no longer relevant because now you know you don't have a competitor advantage of delivering something that is now fully available for every every other product and companies to use.
[00:14:13] That's where do you double down or do you cut in my case I would say I would cut it out and let's just use the free models and whatever we did is some cost let's just forget about it and move on and get.
[00:14:23] That tool that already been proven and has lot better resources behind it like opening I or Gemini or anthropic or whatever other models there are there and that's the hard that's a hard part for I think for a lot of executives and people today is that the change is so fast.
[00:14:38] And then take up too much time to deliver something market the value of that is completely gone by the time you deliver that market and you know that and move fast enough to do that.
[00:14:46] And so that's what agility aspect I think is even more important and to have good project management governance.
[00:14:53] It gives you that agility is what I would say because if you don't have that and you don't have good management teams be able to deliver that quickly then you're not going to be able to move fast enough.
[00:15:08] Yeah I agree with that and just two reflections as you were talking there so one about planning and one about risk planning we have an expression in the project profession we say projects don't go wrong they start wrong.
[00:15:21] And what we mean by this is that the planning aspect is often the bit that people want to do fast sometimes for the very reason you've described look we need to move really quickly on this because.
[00:15:32] And so one and actually that extra time spent in a planning phase to really assess who those are the competitors are is there going to be a free version coming along is anybody like to be working on this that of course you don't always know.
[00:15:47] And more time spent on really understanding the kind of the planning aspect of things is going to save time and many inevitably later on so I think it's the first thing.
[00:15:57] I think I'd just say on risk in many organizations is seen as a little bit of a kind of admin kind of alp patross if I call it that it's a good people feel they must do probably because you know governance and structures and so on and leaders are going to ask for it.
[00:16:13] But but our organizations using those risk registers and so on to really drive strategic decision making for me that's when you really get the best out of out of that approach the example you've given there were other all another organization comes in and offers the free AI tool.
[00:16:32] And really good approach to risk not only would have already identified that and the likelihood of that but it would also have it predetermined what action or options the organization has should that risk materialize and become an issue.
[00:16:48] And so rather than it be a kind of crisis meeting where we say oh no Google's brought out Gem and I and someone else has brought out chat to be tea what should we do you get the risk register out and you say we know what our options are we've already discussed this if you like when the sun was shining and we all had clear heads and it wasn't a crisis situation.
[00:17:06] And that I think helps to make much better decisions when things inevitably don't go as planned because the reality is we live in a voica world for now is not familiar with voica I'm sure you are volatile and certain complex and ambiguous which used to be.
[00:17:21] I mean, the minority of projects but I suspect now applies so almost every project because the nature of the world it is.
[00:17:27] The speed of change sometimes can be dizzying for many leaders at this point especially because things are moving so fast the speed at which Microsoft had to move.
[00:17:36] In the AI world is bewildering a company that size moving that fast is not very common IBM took years to move into PC world right.
[00:17:46] And the last obviously lead in that process to some extent and Google was led to the game on the AI game even though they had all the right resources and the right power behind it so it can be dizzying and I think that's.
[00:18:01] I think that's going to probably create problems to some extent the project management profession because if you really want to spend time assessing all the risk and I'm just being a contrary into some extent here because.
[00:18:10] You spent too much time assessing it you lose you lose the the the first mover advantage of people or the second mover advantage but I think to but I was at your point is that maybe the risk is knowing that maybe we don't know all the risk and that is hence risk as well.
[00:18:27] I think that's true on the AI things specifically a few observations I think one I think it's likely to change significantly again I don't think what we're seeing now is necessarily the end product and by the way I think it could go backwards and just to give you an example of why because AI is not the only kind of show me in town as it were we've also got sustainability which is a huge international priority.
[00:18:51] And when there are reports coming out saying things like for every 20 to 50 searches on chat GPT takes the equivalent of 500 milliliters of water to cool the data center.
[00:19:03] You start to get to ask the questions about is this something that we want the general public and the wider world just using is that a good use of our kind of natural resources that debate hasn't been had yet.
[00:19:16] So I think at some point we're going to see a kind of a clash if you like between the sustainability agenda and the AI agenda and frankly I suspect there's only one way that's going to go and it's probably going to go the way of sustainability in the end.
[00:19:31] I think that might be a different point of view than people may be listening to this might think but we haven't seen that kind of direct clash if you like between two big items like the second topic and I want to touch upon changing topics a minute here is the projectification of the workforce and manages.
[00:19:48] I need a little bit about what really do you mean by that and why is that important.
[00:19:53] I suppose I talk so far about leaders and managers and the fact that they should be operating more like project delivery because it will help them to deliver their strategic aims.
[00:20:04] There are other aspects of the workforce more broadly which are becoming more projectified organically and the projectification of the workforce is a good example of this so what do I mean if I look at young people something can have your.
[00:20:18] I think what they're not doing and I recognize I'm generalizing here but I think what we're not seeing at scale at least is those people coming to the workforce and saying I would like to work for one organization for 30 years and start at a junior level and work my way up some people might do that.
[00:20:40] But I think the vast majority of young people I see community into the workforce are saying look I don't know what I want to do I might want to do several things during my career so what I'll do is I'll commit to you to commit to work for you for.
[00:20:52] I don't know two years three years I'll have a particular goal that I want to deliver while I'm here because I want to prove what I can do or want to show you my skills and develop those skills.
[00:21:03] And then I might go off and do something different and the reason I say this is a kind of projectification is because when we talk about projects we talk about them having.
[00:21:12] I define kind of set of deliverables that they're going to be delivered within a particular time span and this sounds very much like what these young people are doing when they come into a job.
[00:21:22] So it's not they're not taking a job on to deliver businesses usual they're taking a job on to deliver a particular set of outcomes to deliver a project I would say so there is this wider projectification of the workforce and if we recognize that.
[00:21:35] The knackives again leaders and opportunity to invest the formal tools and techniques which are proven to work into the workforce more generally and that will help them to make better hires it will help them to make better use of the resources once these people are employed in the organization.
[00:21:51] And also help for better transition when those people exit and move on to the next one.
[00:21:57] So you basically saying we need to acknowledge and be honest about the fact that these people are going to exerate some point when the higher somebody at the time of hiring itself we acknowledge that this is probably a four year higher this is probably a three year higher this is probably a six year higher.
[00:22:14] Yeah, that's right.
[00:22:15] That's why we're talking about in that sense because we just need to be more honest about it and turn out full or so thinking that this person is going to be stick with us forever and then the person falling themselves think I'm going to be in this company forever.
[00:22:24] I think that's an aspect of it but I'm sure lots of listeners to this podcast either who are being hired or are doing the hiring would say hey hang out a minute I am on this debate this I do this already I think it's it goes beyond just the honesty though I think it's about the insane once we know that this is some form of a project.
[00:22:43] Can we actually deploy some of those tools and techniques so let me return to the one I said about earlier on benefit realization.
[00:22:49] So if I say this person's going to be with me for three years is it just they do they're three years enough they go and thanks very much or do we have a planning place to make sure that the deliverables that this person leaves behind don't get lost when the person goes and actually they get absorbed strategically by the organization and deployed in a way that delivers the benefits of that person having been in the organization for three years.
[00:23:12] That's the thing I'm talking about.
[00:23:14] Are you suggesting that maybe in the offer letter said this is a three year term stop employment and we'll revisit after the worst the end of their term they're basically.
[00:23:25] I'm not doing this advocating for fixed term roles for every post I think it's more saying that we have something here which we should acknowledge is a project and by the way although a project could be a fixed time scale and should be a fixed time scale.
[00:23:40] That's not the only thing that you might choose to fix we talk about in the project world about something called the iron triangle time cost quality and you may choose to fix one of those because that's really important.
[00:23:51] You might choose to fix time because you've got a deadline to deliver a particular product to market for example but equally it might be the cost you only got a certain amount of cash flowage year that you can spend so.
[00:24:02] The reason I'm saying that is it's not necessarily going to be known at the outset that this person is here for exactly two years or exactly three years it might be we say look we've got a particular outcome we're going to achieve.
[00:24:13] I don't know if it's going to take you three years or five years or eight years but this is how much money you've got each year please move as close as that but at some point this job is going to be done and so we need to plan from the outset to bring those benefits into our business when you step away whenever that might be.
[00:24:29] Yeah that's a good one but how do you estimate how long this person is going to be there that's going to be hard one two.
[00:24:35] I guess you're saying the project might itself be only two years and then maybe it's just something else after that let's say you bringing in ahead of.
[00:24:42] Product development right because your product development needs somebody to.
[00:24:48] Manager effectively and innovate and things like that and you in your hair you might be thinking that's like a problem to your effort because I felt behind my competitors and you product out the market and make it successful to your project.
[00:25:01] So you really need to think about in those terms so you're basically saying exactly and by the way I'm not saying the person has to leave.
[00:25:08] It's entirely possible that they take on another project within the organization it's entirely possible they get promoted or moved to a different part of the organization.
[00:25:16] It's not so much about the person as it is about the thing that they're working on.
[00:25:22] So I think we need to distinguish between those two yes so that project in this case is that I have two years to figure out how to come and win this market otherwise I'm going to have a close shot.
[00:25:34] In example before right for tried to grow an India and couldn't and the close shots for doesn't exist in India anymore.
[00:25:42] They shot shop they realize they couldn't compete with the Japanese and Korean manufacturers and local Indian manufacturers as well.
[00:25:49] But if you were but if you were for and say I have two years to figure this out otherwise I'm going to have to shut shop.
[00:25:55] And so you had a program with that mindset to say okay let's just go and figure this out and if you can't but if you do then that project so we can move on to another project.
[00:26:05] Yeah, I think that's right and I think actually we're touching on another potential consequence of this type of thinking which does need to be thought about biorganisation which is this idea of strategic misrepresentation and also watermelon reporting.
[00:26:20] If you say to somebody look your whole job is about delivering x whatever x is when x is going badly what's the incentive for that person to be really honest and say look things are going and it might not be a performance issue by the way could be as you as we talked about the extension landscape and all kinds of things going on.
[00:26:39] But we need to make sure that we don't inadvertently take an approach here where the person tells you everything's green if you like on your rag status but it's actually read on the inside this is what I mean by watermelon reporting.
[00:26:52] You want to make sure that they can be honest about that without fear that we're going to say okay that's the end of the project then because we don't need you anymore or you're off.
[00:26:59] So I think there's a PC around organizational culture and creating that Google talks about psychological safety for example, I think that's an aspect of this so we need to be clear about the project and we don't have organizational clarity about the expectations.
[00:27:13] But also we need to have a culture where we can be honest when things aren't working pull a plug if we need to that doesn't necessarily mean the person's going to lose their job, but it might mean they're going to be working on a different project.
[00:27:24] Yes, we need to separate the person from the project to some extent because a lot of things are substantial you could like in the case of AI you could have the best product teams working on this AI conversation intelligence,
[00:27:38] but all these other AI tools come your benefit is not destined for failure for no quality of anyone right absolutely and the thing is as soon as we talked about a product development kind of manager before.
[00:27:50] But as soon as you know that the thing that delivering is going to be something akin to a project it also makes you think differently about for example how you develop your workforce of what you invest in.
[00:28:00] So rather than only developing them in the area of knowledge and skills around.
[00:28:05] And you might also say actually they need some some in development around project management and you so maybe then it's a awesome qualifications in that area as well as the specialist kind of domain that they're operating in as well.
[00:28:19] In the same way that there's a basic level of expectation for leaders I talked about early on we'd want them to understand HR marketing finance actually I would say what all leaders to also understand project management and project delivery because that will help them.
[00:28:33] But unless we formally recognize that in a strategic sense in our organization that's always going to be left to the side and the whole organization and the individuals within it's suffer as a result.
[00:28:44] Yeah, and I think going back to your original discussion point about leaders making taking project management mindset it becomes important from that perspective because if they don't have those skills they become leaders with no realistic concept of what actually this to execute using effective project management techniques.
[00:29:04] Effectively, they set up the organization's a file in that situation excellent.
[00:29:08] I remember it's been a pleasure chatting with you. I could talk about this for hours and I did get my P.M.B. certification back in the day and I was a project manager so I can relate to a lot of this in my own career but this has been a very insightful discussion very unique one having this project management approach to work leadership and a strategic execution. So thank you.
[00:29:28] Now thank you it's been a pleasure.
[00:29:30] Shree Chalapa here. Thank you so much for listening to the people strategy leaders podcast. If you are a successful leader or a people strategist who would like to be on this program, please visit engage at lead calm slash people strategy leaders podcast.
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