Your host, Sri Chellappa, talks with the Author, Speaker, and Advisor, Ben Afia. Ben emphasizes that a strong alignment between brand and culture is essential for delivering a consistent and authentic customer experience. When employees understand and embody the brand values, it translates into every interaction they have with customers, creating a cohesive and trustworthy brand image. Your brand is a promise to your customers, setting expectations about the experience they will have with your company. Your organizational culture is how you deliver on that promise, encompassing the behaviors, attitudes, and values of your employees.
Aligning brand and culture not only enhances customer experience but also boosts employee engagement. When employees feel connected to the brand, they are more motivated and committed to their work. A well-aligned brand and culture ensures that customers receive a consistent and positive experience, leading to higher satisfaction and loyalty. Employees who resonate with the brand values are more likely to be engaged, productive, and loyal to the organization.
To learn more about Ben's work, click HERE and HERE.
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[00:00:02] People First Organizations will win in the future of work. The only real asset is your people. We all want purpose for their work. HR led organization is the future. I'm sorry, but leaders don't lead empty desks and empty shop floors.
[00:00:17] Welcome to the People Strategy Leaders Show. I'm your host Srikant Chellappa, founder and president of Engaged.ly and a serial entrepreneur in technology, films and music. This is where we talk to people leaders, business strategists and organizational savants about leading in the time of change. What is working,
[00:00:35] what is not working and more importantly, what we should be thinking about. Stick around to the end of the show. We will reveal how you can be our next guest. And now let's engage. Hello and welcome to People Strategy Leaders Podcast. I'm Srikant Chellappa your host.
[00:00:52] Today I'm joined with Ben Affia. Ben Affia is a consultant speaker and author who's had his fill of cold corporate organizations treating their employees and customers like robots. So he set out on a mission to make businesses more human. He realized that when you deeply
[00:01:08] connect your culture and brand, you'll give the people experiences they yearn for almost 30 years. He's been trusted by companies like Alliance, Vodafone and Google to change their culture, build their brand and make staff and customers happier. In his first book,
[00:01:24] The Human Business, shows how to do that by aligning culture, brand and experience. Find out more at benaffia.com. Welcome to the show Ben. It's such an amazing topic to talk about. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks very much for having me on. It's fun.
[00:01:41] So brand, when we talk about brand, it's typically thought about as something that marketing cooks up in their marketing kitchen and then goes to market. Organizations then we have that as pretty much like a singular approach, but they don't really translate that
[00:01:57] always to the culture. You know what I'm saying? So an example of that is there's all these great ads by a lot of telecom companies in the U.S. specifically, but every time I have to call
[00:02:08] a telecom company to resolve a problem, I try to procrastinate as long as possible because I know what my experience is going to be. So talk about why and why is this important first
[00:02:20] of all to translate brand internally and why is it so difficult? Yeah, it's important because as customers, as you've just highlighted, we're just fed up of dealing with robots, aren't we? And being treated like robots. If we feel like a number, we don't feel engaged with the
[00:02:37] business. And so we're not so likely to come back and buy more and bring off recommend our friends are we? But I think another reason is that organizations can be working internally much more efficiently if they're connecting their brand and their organizational
[00:02:53] culture tightly. And I suppose I've also found that if your people are happy, they do more and they generate happy customers, which leads to profitability. So that's why I think we need to be more human in business. Second part of your question, remind me. Second part is it
[00:03:15] seems logical, but why is it so hard to get that done? Yeah. Most of my experience has been with large businesses, big organizations, mainly in heavily regulated industries. So things like insurance and banks and telecoms and utilities. And these form bureaucracies. You have huge
[00:03:33] teams headed by different directors, and they're not always as joined up as they might be. And this is just for historical reasons. And it happens in it's just a factor of size when businesses get large. So what tends to happen is you will have a brand team or
[00:03:46] a marketing team who are working with an advertising agency or a branding agency, and they will work on the consumer brand strategy if you like. And then completely separately, you've got the HR or people team, and they're working on an employer brand,
[00:04:01] and they'll hire another kind of agency or consultancy altogether. So you've got two groups within the organization developing brand working on brand, and they're not necessarily talking to each other. So quite often I'll go into a company, somebody like Aviva or Vodafone,
[00:04:17] for example, and you find that these things might not necessarily be joined up. Whereas to my mind, your brand is your brand, your brand is your promise to your customers, but it's also your promise to your people. It's how you say you're going
[00:04:31] to behave in the world and what you're going to offer. And if that isn't connected with your organization's ability to deliver, then you can promise but you're not going to deliver. How do you go about translating a brand experience in large organizations? So it sits
[00:04:48] beyond the kitchen of the marketing team and sales teams. I like the idea of a marketing kitchen, actually, or the brand kitchen. So quite often these things for me start with the customer experience, so customer service and a problem that you might be having. So
[00:05:03] the symptoms that an organization is facing from customers will be felt on the front line. So it's your customer service team, it's people in stores, shops, people on web chat. And so it's
[00:05:13] the letters and the emails and the texts and the messaging. Those are the points at which you find that you've got symptoms, you've got problems. And let's say for example, you're getting increasing numbers of complaints or you want to earn more customer loyalty. So you
[00:05:27] want your customers to come back and buy more themselves, but also you want them to refer their friends. So your customer satisfaction or your net promoter score are really important. So if those things are struggling, that's the clue that there's something up.
[00:05:41] The challenge is that within our teams, within operations or customer service, we tend to look at this in isolation and go, we need to rewrite our letters. And it takes a fairly wise executive
[00:05:50] team to go hang on, isn't the symptom, the cause of that symptom deeper within the culture? What do I mean by this? So let's say you're an insurance company or a bank and you have
[00:06:01] to write a lot of letters to cut to customers. Now in the UK, you have a requirement to treat customers fairly and with the new consumer duty to put the consumer at the heart of your products
[00:06:13] and services and communication. I'm not sure what the regulation is in the US, but so with this requirement, you're focused on how do I put the consumer, the customer at the heart
[00:06:23] of everything? And so you look at it as a customer service challenge. But what I find is, let's say I look at customer letters or texts, things that are going out about your insurance policy. You get clauses in there that come from the compliance team,
[00:06:36] that come from the regulatory team, the lawyers, you'll have product teams, you'll have marketing, you'll have brand. All of these people throughout the organisation are contributing to that one piece of communication. So you've got that one
[00:06:48] opportunity to wow your customer and make them feel happy and loved so that they come back and buy more. Or you've got that one opportunity to push them away and make them feel distanced from you. And the problem is that because you've got loads and loads of teams,
[00:07:01] lots of different people through the organisation contributing to that end communication, you actually have to look at that whole sequence, the whole system. And that's the only way only by taking a root cause approach, can you diagnose what's actually happening when you talk to customers?
[00:07:18] Yeah, that reminds me of a letter I got. A letter is a stretch actually, because it was not a letter that I actually got. I got a book because the book was literally this thick. I think it had about 250 pages from an insurance company about explaining my policy.
[00:07:36] I can't imagine one person who's going to go through and read that book. First of all, I admire the people who actually wrote it because that's a lot of boring writing somebody
[00:07:45] had to do. But oh my gosh, that was crazy. So that to me, I don't even know what I'm reading. But I know I'm going to pay the price some point when I make a claim that, oh, did you
[00:07:54] see on page 27 clause 7C.A that there's this clause that says you cannot make this claim because of this reason? And I think that's a problem because most consumers, even the literate ones and the educated ones don't have the time or the mindset to read legalese like that.
[00:08:14] No, but we can make it easier. And enlightened heads and directors of customer experience get that they need to make that simpler for customers to absorb. So there's an American insurance company, Lemonade. You can find their insurance policy, although I think they call it
[00:08:30] an FAQ, but it's basically their policy online and the tone of voice is lovely. They've made it very digestible, easy to consume and in a warm and human tone of voice. Now, that tone
[00:08:41] of voice may not be appropriate for all customers. Some people might want something a bit more authoritative or formal, but certainly for younger customers who didn't grow up with that level of formality, it's really appropriate. And in the UK we have banks like Monzo and
[00:08:55] Starling who are doing a similar thing. I worked with an insurance company, Many Pets, who are UK and US and Sweden and they are pet insurance. So if you've got a dog or a
[00:09:04] cat, they'll insure you. And they have worked really hard to both simplify the quote journey so that it feels human, engaged and simple, but also looks at terms and conditions and every step of the customer journey so that everything is simple and clear and absorbed
[00:09:20] and easy to understand. That way we're earning the trust of customers because all of those little communications tell you whether we're an organization that's going to fulfill our promises or not. Yeah. So that's obviously on some of the communication
[00:09:33] aspects, but let's talk about the actual change in the culture natively within the organization. Inherently at the root level, and that includes not just the customer service or the legal team, but also the people who are working in their dungeons writing code
[00:09:50] or actual people or whoever. And then there's an army of people which I don't even know exactly what they do. If you look at an insurance company like Alliance, it's tens and thousands of people running systems, maintaining systems, supporting. There's people
[00:10:05] who are probably just in charge of facilities if nothing else. So there's all these people. How do you permeate the culture and the brand that you set out for the external facing? Because the whole purpose of creating a brand from a marketing perspective, how do we get more
[00:10:20] consumers who will stay with us longer? But really it can only be true like you said, if the culture actually adopts it. So it's quite challenging, especially larger the organization, the more hard it is. How do you go about doing that? What are the steps?
[00:10:35] There's an approach to change that I use called appreciative inquiry. And appreciative inquiry starts by looking at what's already working within the organization. So it's about making change happen through strengths, but it's also so it's about recognizing strengths,
[00:10:52] but also recruiting the organization around the change right from the start. So what tends to happen in large organizations is the brand team or the people team go away and do a load of work, and then they'll launch it on an unsuspecting population.
[00:11:06] And they may and that population may resist it quite often they don't want change happening to them. But if you involve them from the start, then you can make change happen without this great hoo-ha and this great lot this idea of a launch that's really about communication and
[00:11:23] therefore only skin deep. So appreciative inquiry helps to consult across the organization. And I use this to do interviews and workshops. And I try to recruit a team of champions from across the business. So one example recently, I worked with a UK bank called
[00:11:39] Aldermore Bank, they arose from the ashes of the financial crisis to serve the underserved, to provide mortgages to company customers that weren't getting finance from the traditional banks may because they had a credit risk or racing that sort of thing. And so we,
[00:11:57] I recruited managed to recruit a team of champions from all the way through the customer journey. And they started with broker sales people, the customer sales, all the underwriting teams, compliance, legal marketing, the whole works. We had people representing all of those
[00:12:10] teams. And so they then knew all of the they found all of the communications going to customers from all of those teams. And we were able to piece the whole customer journey together. But by having somebody from every team along that journey, what we then had
[00:12:26] represent representation. So we then looked at creating a tone of voice, a brand tone of voice, the style of language, the personality, how that comes through in language, we created an empathy toolkit. And we train those champions to train the people in their
[00:12:43] teams themselves. And also we train them to be coaches, so they can continue the work after the initial push of training. So we created this team internally who created the change from within and equip them to pass on the to consult with their teams, and also then pass
[00:13:00] stuff back and bring the skills back into the organization. Sanyam Bhutani So is this is a very interesting conversation that we are having here because I see this as a sub maybe I'm wrong,
[00:13:11] it's a chicken and egg problem. Are you saying that the brand comes from what the people are already doing in those? Or are you saying we have a brand that we want to be maybe we're
[00:13:22] not quite there yet. And then we figured out how do we get people involved to adopt that brand in? Jason Vale Yeah, it's the former so exactly as you say, and this is the bit that might be a bit challenging for people because traditionally,
[00:13:34] we would create band brand in the marketing team, we would do customer insight, we'd understand what people are feeling and we would develop a brand and product or service to fulfill that need in the market. Traditional Procter and Gamble Unilever Marketing Academy.
[00:13:49] I'm suggesting something slightly different. We need that insight, of course, but I feel very strongly that we need to start from within. Because the intelligence is within the organization, your people are talking to customers and they know what customers want,
[00:14:02] what they need. So the intelligence already exists within the organization. So for me, what appreciative inquiry helps us to do is to free up that intelligence internally and make the connections across the teams. So with the Oldham or bank example, there were people in
[00:14:17] underwriting who weren't communicating necessarily day to day with the broker sales team, for example. But once broker sales understood what underwriting are trying to achieve, you start making that connection. And that's where you get this increased efficiency.
[00:14:30] I mentioned right at the start about increased efficiency within the organization. If you can join those teams, you then have a more seamless connection. And you've got increased efficiency, which means you reduce rework, you create communications that achieve the objective that
[00:14:44] you want in the first place. But also you've got employees who feel more empowered, they feel more positive at work, more connected with their peers and the people around them. So they're more engaged and isn't engagement the panacea of customer happiness to my mind. If
[00:15:01] you make your people happy, they can make your customers happy. But if your people are unhappy, they're not going to be very nice to your customers. So I guess the key is to get your
[00:15:10] people to understand what will make them happy first. And yes, in many cases, I see, or if you look out, there's a CEOs out because the CEO was not doing well, or maybe there was
[00:15:22] a toxic workplace, new CEO comes in, they want to make these changes much bigger lift, right? For example, they have to go and understand why the teams hate each other, why there's delays in delivery of products or services or solutions. They have to understand
[00:15:37] all these problems. And it came from years and years of toxic leadership that permeated down. Obviously, that is not the brand that the CEO wants, the new CEO wants. They want the brand to be okay, we want to be the next gen insurance company, not an insurance company
[00:15:54] that's gone toxic over the years because they were so profit minded and something happened there because of that. How do you approach a problem like that? Because if you talk to the teams and
[00:16:04] try to get the brand out of them, that's not the brand you really want. So you have this North Star brand that you want to be. And you want to figure out how to get people
[00:16:13] there. Yeah. So this is where this approach really actually comes into its own when you've got a negative culture and a new CEO, as you said, say can't necessarily change everything. Because if you've got a large organisation of 10s or 100s of 1000s of people,
[00:16:29] it's very difficult for one person, even if they're the leader to change that culture, because that culture is deeply embedded in the unspoken practices in the organisation. It's not the stuff that's written in the values and in the behaviour framework or the competency
[00:16:42] framework. It's the stuff that really goes on. It's the conversations in every meeting and the tone of those conversations. So you really do have to reach deep. And if we start by getting people so just to give you an example, the foundational element of appreciative inquiry
[00:16:58] is these one to one interviews. So you give people an interview guide and you'll ask I might ask you for example, so tell me about a time that you've been absolutely your best at
[00:17:08] work a time when you felt most truly alive, engaged and energised. Tell me what happened in the first person tell me a rich description of this story, who was involved, what was the outcome.
[00:17:20] You then start telling a story that you may never have a situation you may never have had the opportunity to talk about before. But what happens is when you tell that story in the first person and you explain in detail what happened, you find that you re-experience
[00:17:35] the endorphins that you felt at the time of that best past experience. So you do two things first of all, you then look at the themes the things that you valued from that experience,
[00:17:45] the strengths that came to play. And you and I always find that you get words like collaboration, empathy, communication, my team had my back, the things that you would hope that people would say in terms of behaviours they say because that's when these best past experiences
[00:18:04] happen. I've never had a story of somebody saying I did it all on my own, due to my own persistence and genius doesn't happen. So first of all, you get the words that you might relate to your values, your behaviours, your guiding principles in the organisation.
[00:18:19] But the second thing it does is it makes people feel really good. So you identify the strengths and you get people feeling positive and recognise and they may never have had the opportunity in this organisation. So you say you might have a toxic culture,
[00:18:33] you then have a room, a space where people are talking about times at these best past experiences. So you can then do quite wonderful stuff actually you can then go to the next stage which is
[00:18:44] saying if these are our strengths, if this is what we like at our best, what could we create? And this depends on the question you're asking so it might be how what might our ideal
[00:18:54] employee experience look like or our employee journey for an HR. If we're in customer experience the question might be what might our perfect customer experience look like, the customer journey. Or if we're thinking organisationally what do we truly value? It
[00:19:07] might be a values and behaviours question. So you're tapping in to what's true, what's real because by this stage in a toxic culture the existing values and behaviours have been ignored, they're not being followed because those words are probably fine but they're not being followed,
[00:19:22] they're not the true values that are embedded. So this opens the whole system up to then start exploring and you can do this in interviews, in workshops and across the whole organisation. So what in an organisation, large insurance companies and things like that,
[00:19:41] that's a multi-year process or is that something that can be done fairly rapidly? It can be a multi-year process but I guess it depends on the scale of change that you're trying to tackle and you can start small. So what I've tended to find, I've been in
[00:19:56] business about 30 years now and I've generally found that starting small actually and getting some commitment and getting a proof of concept works well. So quite often when I'm working with a team of champions we're starting with that small team and you're generating some
[00:20:10] energy. When you start then making some changes happening for that small team and then reaching out to other teams you can actually start, it can, I don't want to use the word but viral
[00:20:20] is the way things can start to spread almost by osmosis. So you can start small however it does allow you to tackle large organisations and David Cooper, I do the originator of appreciative inquiry, US academic at Case Western Reserve actually consulted early on with the US
[00:20:39] Navy. So hundreds of thousands of people and he used the approach to answer the question why officer cadet very expensive and extensive training instead of going why did those people leave he started by why do the people who stay what are the strengths that keep them there.
[00:20:57] So it can work across the whole organisation and yes that does take time. Yeah can you talk about a place where you had a major impact using this approach to change where the brand started reflecting in the people experience?
[00:21:13] Yeah I guess one brand that might resonate is Vodafone mobile company. So I worked with Vodafone on and off for about 15 years and we started on the brand strategy and the brand personality. We translated that into the brand tone of voice, the tone of voice,
[00:21:30] the language of the brand and then in the UK we started training people across the organisation. I even had writers going in and trainers going in to train the teams across the UK
[00:21:40] but then we came to work with the Indian contact centres. They had bases in Pune and New Delhi and one of the problems this web chat team had in particular was when you're just working
[00:21:52] over text message over web chat it can be quite hard to pick up the nuances of a conversation and one of the problems that the Indians were having was understanding us passive aggressive
[00:22:04] Brits. You may know us Brits don't have a reputation for not truly saying what we mean so if a native Brit says that's a bit annoying, a native Brit will go might pick up that there's
[00:22:18] a complaint brewing but a non-native Brit might go doesn't sound like a problem to me and so you get this misinterpretation. So we took this brand to the Indians, we worked with a team of champions including the trainers, team leaders and execs to create
[00:22:37] this working party and we used the appreciative inquiry to get them imagining what the ideal customer experience would look like and what the change would need to happen amongst the thousand people on web chat in India and working with that team they then brought in
[00:22:53] tone of voice, empathy skills, some cultural understanding and achieved some quite startling results. By the time they'd trained a thousand people the average web chat had reduced from 20 minutes to 18 minutes so they'd saved about five percent they thought that was going to mean
[00:23:08] that efficiency meant they could lose 50 people naturally in the first year that they wouldn't need to replace probably a half a million pounds in salary savings, they increased their NPS net promoter score by 15 to 20 points but also crucially they reduced complaints
[00:23:26] and the complaints escalated to the CEO. So there were multiple benefits, internal efficiency, cost savings and no doubt increased sales and customer satisfaction. So in the process of doing this how do you what type of challenges do you see that
[00:23:43] or things that can go wrong in the process? I guess we should talk about that a little bit in terms of an executive saying let's do this and then things go completely sideways. What can cause that? So I guess the biggest challenge is resistance within the organization
[00:24:00] which you always have. There are going to be pockets of resistance and you probably have a bell curve most people will adopt some will want to jump in feet first and get on
[00:24:11] with it and others are going to resist and they're never going to change and I tend to find you get that spread. So the challenge is identifying the people who are going to resist
[00:24:19] and hold things back and I always find that there are there's the kind of the unspoken political power within the organization. There are certain people who hold influence who may not hold position status, they may not have a job title but they hold sway and they may be
[00:24:35] people that have been around for a long time and if they're a negative influencer then they can really hold things back. My answer to that is to engage with those people right at
[00:24:42] the start and ideally get them involved and this is why in these kind of groups of champions I love having people from compliance or lawyers because their job is to protect the organization and they are inherently skeptical often because they're looking for what's going to go wrong,
[00:24:56] that's their focus. So if we get those people working with the marketing people, with the customer service people and getting people across teams that overcomes resistance because you'll then get a group and if the majority of a group are all on board and they're
[00:25:10] going or getting on with it those people will tend to get dragged along and they'll go it looks like this is the way things are going to go so I fall into line.
[00:25:20] The one group that I think I'm most wary of, the active resistors are great, the passive dissenters are the ones that I worry about the most when we're trying to change because they're not
[00:25:30] speaking up but in the back rooms they make their play like you don't need to just hang in the way. This happens every year and because there are things that happen, initiative start and the fizzle out, initiative start and they fizzle out. So many projects whether it's
[00:25:44] change projects, change management projects, new process, a lot of them fizzle out and they're the passive dissenters because there's a lack of trust that this is just another thing that they've dreamed up. And really I think the answer to that is to get them involved,
[00:26:01] to make them part of the process and let them voice their concerns because those concerns are there with other people, they're just the voice and tackle it head on. Yeah and then turn them into your promoters as well because the dissenters are the easy ones
[00:26:17] then you can actually have somebody you can work with. The passive dissenters are the ones that like is the people that look like they're on board and then yeah they're nodding their heads months later you find nothing happens because they're like okay I'm just doing what I'm
[00:26:31] supposed to do but I know nothing is going to come out of it so I'm not going to participate actively into it. I think the key thing here, I've gone through many changes myself
[00:26:40] in many organizations including Engage League. One thing I realized is and this is not something new is that change is hard and it requires multiple iterations of reiterating the message over and then keeping people accountable for the change. If somebody says I'm going to do
[00:26:58] this in my team, I'm going to work through this my team but if it's not happening you go back and you try to work with them again and say I could be committed to this we need
[00:27:07] to make these changes because change is hard and most people think it's just too much work and they give up and then it fizzles out essentially. So it depends on engaging with those people getting them involved but it also involves skills. Sometimes you need
[00:27:21] to introduce new skills so quite often for example if we're trying to make this more human connection with each other and therefore with customers that's sometimes quite difficult especially in a rigid top-down culture. So I try to promote more of a coaching culture
[00:27:40] where people are enabling each other around the organization and so that can mean bringing true coaching skills rather than just tell and tell off kind of skills. People tend to default to traditional ways of behaving so for me it's bringing in coaching skills, it's
[00:27:56] bringing in training skills so that you can, if you've got high turnover in certain teams you need to be able to train those people and to adopt the behaviors you want. If you don't equip them they're not going to, they won't behave in the way that you hope.
[00:28:08] So if you want them to speak differently, to run meetings differently, to talk to customers differently, to write differently you have to equip people with the skills but what I tend to find is it's about being a catalyst. So I come in as a catalyst to
[00:28:22] create that energy, to kickstart that change and what I'm always trying to do is leave as much skill and capability within my champions team but then also give them the capability to replace themselves and to grow that coaching community, that champion community because
[00:28:37] people will come and go from that team and it only becomes sustainable when those skills continue to spread and so I'm always trying to encourage that infrastructure and that skill spread. Excellent, so you have a book coming out, already out, the Human Business.
[00:28:54] Talk a little bit about what's in this book, who is this for, what's the key takeaway? Yeah, so the book is for leaders in mainly larger businesses, so marketing leaders, people leaders, operations leaders, people who are trying to, who believe that making a human
[00:29:11] connection internally and with customers is a route to success. So it's not for people who are just numbers driven because this is about emotion, it's about skill, it's about human relationship and I have three sections, I talk about culture and employee brand, how you feed
[00:29:29] that into your brand strategy, your consumer brand strategy and then how aligning your culture and brand will lead you to the customer experience that customers really want, the experiences that people yearn for and will keep them coming back and buying more.
[00:29:45] Excellent, that's the essence. Thanks Ben, it's been a pleasure, I hope you're booked as well, it's much needed out there because there's clearly a disconnect between what the market is told versus what the real experience is post sale so thanks for your insight.
[00:30:01] Thank you for having me on Sri, it's been great. For more information on the show, please visit www.engagedly.com slash people strategy leaders podcast. If you got something out of this interview,
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[00:30:43] and mean a lot to me and my team. Want to know more? Follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter at Sri Chalapa. Thanks for listening, we will see you next time and thank you to Patrick Ramsey, sound engineer at Kalinga production studios for recording and mixing this show.