80 - Empathy in Action: Understanding Employee Needs for a Healthier Work Environment with livingHR's Keri Higgins-Bigelow

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: People First Organizations will win in the future of work.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Your only real asset is your people.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_02]: We all want purpose for their work.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: HR led organization is the future.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, but leaders don't leave empty desks and empty shop floors.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the People Strategy Leaders Show.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host Srikant Chellappa, founder and president of Engagedly,

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and a serial entrepreneur in technology, films, and music.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: This is where we talk to people leaders, business strategists,

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and organizational savants about leading in the time of change.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_02]: What is working, what is not working, and more importantly,

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_02]: what we should be thinking about.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Stick around to the end of the show.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We will reveal how you can be our next guest.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And now let's engage.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to People Strategy Leaders Podcast.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Srikant Chellappa, your host.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Today I'm joined with Keri Higgins-Bigelow,

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: founder and CEO of LivingHR since 2009.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: She's a human who cares a lot about humans,

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and the purpose work serves in our life and society.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Keri and LivingHR specialize in reimagining work

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_02]: to build inclusive cultures, talent optimized,

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and capable of delivering on the business strategy,

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and humanized experiences for everyone at work.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: In 2018, Keri co-founded Fair League,

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: a women's leadership group to advance women in corporate and firm roles.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: She hosts a virtual monthly series, Work Now Plus,

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_02]: In the Future, as well as runs DisruptHR,

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: a talk-based event for the world of work.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02]: She's a member of the Forbes Human Resources Council

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and a frequent speaker at national and regional events

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: at Business Journal, ACG, IT Nation, ATD,

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: DisruptHR, and Powered Up.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Keri has been a featured leading voice

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_02]: for workplace culture in Forbes, Business Journal,

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Food and Wine, and Fast Company,

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and has been recognized as Inc's best places to work.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: 13 female leaders, Southeast, HR Person of the Year,

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Business Journal, Business Woman of the Year,

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Business Journal, Best Places to Work,

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and Florida Trends, 2019 best companies to work for in Florida.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Keri. That's quite an accomplishment.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being on the show.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks Ray. It's great to see you.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, you've been in this HR world

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and the whole circus of human workplace

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that we all having massive changes,

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the way employer-employee relationships

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: have been changing over the years,

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: especially since COVID.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the topics that we were talking

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: before this podcast was there's a need for a new contract

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: between employees and employers.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you mean by that?

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That there's a need for a new contract?

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Why do we need a new contract?

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think because the contract has been breached

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: essentially by both sides in some different ways.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you think about it,

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it's really a broken relationship.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's one of the reasons why I started living HR

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: back in 2009 was I kept seeing that there was

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: this really strong intent for executives

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to make workplaces and their cultures good.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there's an executive out there

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that doesn't want their workplace to be a good workplace.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But then you talk to employees and they would all go home

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and they'd sit at the dinner table

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and they'd all talk about how much they hate their jobs.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And so there was this dynamic even back then in 2009.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And then fast forward, there's this,

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: since the pandemic, we've got the challenge

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_00]: where work has really fundamentally changed in some ways

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and the purpose that work serves in our lives

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_00]: has also seemingly changed.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And so what employees want is really,

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: it sounds so simple in some ways

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: because what they want is autonomy and flexibility

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and they want to be able to make a good living

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: to care for their families

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and be able to put families ahead of their work day.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is that they're tethered somehow

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: to work in both either a technical way or physical way.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And the system of work is just not set up for what they want.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And the traditional work day,

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: even things just nine to five, eight to five, whatever it is,

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't align with the responsibilities

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that people have in their lives.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's this kind of massive systemic problem

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: really that workplaces need employees to perform

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and employees don't have the right tools and capacity

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to do it in the way that employers need.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we don't have the system set up in terms of time

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: to give people the time that they need.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: There's these two major levels of time and money

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and neither of them are working for employees.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think the bigger issue is that

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: we are in a society where everything needs to be done now.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's a whole expectation

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that the customer wants support now

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you need that to be done now for them.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And that requires one of your employees

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: to be available at that point.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes it's the same person who's serving

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that customer throughout their life cycle

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: so you can't go to someone else.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You got to disrupt their life to do that.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: The whole need or I should say our system set up there,

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you want support now

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and having to disrupt people's vacations

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: or their childcare responsibilities

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: can be very problematic.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So is that more of a societal problem in your view then

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: or is it something a company can actually fix

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: regardless of what the clients

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and the ecosystem is demanding of it?

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it is a societal problem.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, but there's a role that companies can play

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in meeting what society needs.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think what I mean by that is

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we'll shift more to outcomes based work

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: versus time based work.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we'll start to see more

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of talent marketplaces

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: where you know all the capability of the talent

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that you have at your disposal

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and you'll be able to pull them in on specific projects

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and it'd be based on what we're delivering

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and not just hours and time.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And right now things just even at LivingHR,

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: everything is about how many hours are we booking

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: for this particular project.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're in the legal industry, it's billable hours

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and everything is so centered around the hours

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that we put in versus the outputs that we get.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And because of that with AI in particular

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and so many other different advances that we've made

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: we're gonna have to become very outcomes focused

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: versus time focused.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna tell you a little secret.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I was in consulting services for 18 years

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was primarily one of the reasons I left.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I bet.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The Enum based system really disincentivizing innovation

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to some extent, disincentivizes being efficient

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: for your clients.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And that causes lots of problems

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: because I had this theory

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and I don't know if it's actually written somewhere

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: or not but I realized that just from observing

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: consulting companies and I ran one,

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: it's shame on me to some extent in that context

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is that if you're really bad,

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: your customer will fire you.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're really good, then you're under billing them

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: because the person is gonna get the work done

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: in two hours instead of eight hours that you estimated.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So you really need average people in your consulting

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: team just right in the middle.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have really good people

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: or if you have really bad people

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not good for your consulting team.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's true for any billable based hours.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: We can get things done in two hours.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Why get it done in two hours?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Get a mediocre person to do it in eight hours instead

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and pay them less.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And that definitely is an issue.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But that being said, I do think the concept

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: of involving technology and all the innovation

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: where now those eight, 10, 15 hours of work

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: can actually be done quite rapidly

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and we don't account for that

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: because if you say, oh, that's actually gonna be

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: $600 an hour, the customer is gonna throw a huge fit.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But it is gonna be that because you created systems

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and processes and tools and innovations

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that can actually deliver that faster.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately that's what really should matter

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: is your outcome, like you said.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately even the technology isn't really based

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: to if I look at professional services firms

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're looking at utilization and capacity

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're looking at the systems that are set up

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to ensure that we don't burn out our people.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Most of them don't create that opportunity

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: to focus on the deliverable and the outcome

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: versus the time.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So it skews the data and it becomes very hard to manage

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: from a workplace perspective,

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_00]: which is why this is a big shift

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: that we all have to make.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_02]: We all had targets.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember having targets of 80% utilization

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: in consulting.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And we had the same target for our team members

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: for the most part.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And then eventually started moving

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: to more project-based work.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's hard to do project-based work

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: because you can predict the customer's environment.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: They delay decision-making or they can't,

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: they add more complexity in the middle of a project.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So that can become a little bit problematic.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So it does need to be...

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think relationship between customers

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and employee and employers or organizations

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: also need to probably pivot

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: when there's a little bit more trust in the relationship.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So it doesn't move to this hour-based change management

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: or change order type of business

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: where you do your change order

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you spend two hours haggling about it.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And for the work that's maybe only gonna take

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: another couple of hours anyway.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's it too.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think consulting is just one example.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you think about all the different industries

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that operate based on an hourly workforce,

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: that are really paying people by the hour,

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: their hours are based on a 40-hour work week,

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: their get overtime based on time and a half over 40,

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: all those things,

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: everything in work is centrally rooted in time.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's to me a huge fundamental shift

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that it's not a thing that we can all just flip a switch

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and magically fix and just want it to be this other way.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: We have to be able to set up processes and systems

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and change people's behaviors

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in order to be able to do it.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a very fundamental point that you mentioned

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: except I will ask you,

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: how does that then impact companies

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that time aspect is a component of their work?

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_02]: For example, a retail clerk at Target, for example.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not picking on Target,

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: but as an example,

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: because I was there on the weekend

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and I noticed that's a job

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that requires you to be there at a certain time

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and you get paid for hours based on that.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_02]: How would a contract between employee and employer

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: change for an organization like that?

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's funny.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the only thing that in that example

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that I've been able to,

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I've thought about this a lot

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: because my background originally was in retail.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you have to start thinking

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: about scheduling flexibility

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of people being able to select shifts.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like that Uberization of,

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: okay, I'm gonna work from this time,

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm selecting it, it's self scheduling.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like saying,

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna take this block of time,

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: whether it's four hours, six hours, eight hours,

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: where the company is not mandating that,

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: but the person is able to sign up

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: for what it is that they want.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've started to see those platforms

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly come out,

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: but again, it's not really adopted

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's harder to manage

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and figure out with a giant workforce,

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: how are you going to actually implement

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that sort of change?

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a good, great point.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Now that you got my wheels turning,

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you could have an Uberization with peak pricing, right?

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Essentially, if you work at 6 a.m. to 10 a.m.,

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe that's a different pricing versus 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's a more convenient shift for a lot of people.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: 6 a.m. to 10 a.m. is not very convenient

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: for a lot of people.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would actually pick that

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: because I'm an early morning guy,

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: but I do think there's some advantage to that

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02]: because when you take,

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I take early morning flights or late night flights

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and I always wonder who's this guy driving

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: at 4.30 in the morning picking me up?

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you doing?

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a reason that person is doing that

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and they should get compensated adequately for that.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So is that something what are you talking about?

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And they do get surge pricing

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: in the Uber world of that, right?

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they get the better rates

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and they do the same drive,

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: but they're making more money

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's less desirable.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so if you work on a Black Friday,

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to deal with that unruly crowd.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You get paid more, essentially.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, oh gosh, Black Friday,

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: you're bringing me back to some fun days in my past.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's why this is so, it's so hard

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's two sides of it.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know we talked a little bit about the employer,

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think what employers are also struggling with

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: is figuring out how do we make sure

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that we get the same level of connection?

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You keep hearing people also coming back into the office

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: because they feel like their culture

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: has to be created in a building.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And the converse of what I'm saying is that

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: we also want, and the Italian also wants,

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: workplace to be a place of community.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And it is primarily serving as this place of community.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you have everybody working

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: in the way that they want

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and different shifts and remotely and all that,

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: then that community becomes very hard to run

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and manage and connect.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's also another interesting component of it

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: is that to get it both ways is really the challenge.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I agree.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I know I was, I've been thinking about this a lot myself

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: because we have a very remote workforce

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and in technology specifically,

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: remote workforce is not that uncommon at all, right?

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of companies have gone remote,

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: at least in the U.S. they have.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, it gives employees flexibility

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to work in their pajamas

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and obviously take care of their kids and pets

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and all of that stuff that goes with it.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time,

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: there is the lack of community that forms.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And unwittingly,

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and I say this only from the research I've been reading,

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: it's causing somewhat of,

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: people are terming as a loneliness epidemic,

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: which is now apparently

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: on the radar of National Institute of Health

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and all the other leading health organizations

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: who are looking into it,

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: which I think we're gonna create a society

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: of people who are inherently maybe not as social

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: as they were, especially the Gen Zs

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe one of the next Gen Zs.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually, I don't know.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: What's the name for the next Gen Z?

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there one?

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there is, but I don't remember it either.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: We will be soon talking about it in a couple of months.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But that is definitely an issue as well

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: because your overall connection to the workplace,

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and that is not just about making money, obviously,

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: which is important one,

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's also about having the fulfilling life

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: because you're spending so many hours of your day,

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: your waking hours working.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You wanna feel like you're working towards a purpose,

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you have a sense of community,

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's how the tribes were built back in the day.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Even just going back even 15, 20 years,

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: people wanted to be and spend time socializing,

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes socializing too much

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and not working late and stuff like that.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So that definitely is a challenge.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how we will overcome that, to be honest.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like the tide has moved in one direction,

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: although there's a lot of organizational leaders now,

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: especially the big banks who are asking

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and asking people to come back to work.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: There was this recent interview with Eric Schmidt at Google

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: who was talking about Google's suffering

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: against the startups

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: because people are getting too much flexibility

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: in their work.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So where do you think this is gonna land?

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Or do you have a crystal ball

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that tells you something here?

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it is going to be very employer specific,

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think people will choose their careers

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: based on what they're looking for

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of flexibility.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there are gonna be choices

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that people really have to make

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of do I want the flexibility

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and am I willing to develop myself

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: in a career that gives me that flexibility

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: or do I wanna have this more traditional job?

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: There's certain things

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that I just don't think can be done remotely,

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: but there's just no way to make them remote.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And those to me are,

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I keep hearing where people are like,

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not fair to have our corporate office be remote

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: when we run a bunch of restaurants

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and they all have to go in.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's choosing what type of job you want.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And I disagree.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think if the job can be done

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: in a virtual environment

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're just gonna be sitting on a Zoom

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're not gonna be socializing or interacting

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: or serving the customer directly,

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand why you would force it.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: What I do think that means though

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: is that employers have to be very intentional

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: about creating opportunities for connection and community

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that fall outside of the traditional office space

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: where you're bringing people together now more for events

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: or you're bringing people together for off sites

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: but there has to be purpose

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and there has to be a reason.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And then conversely,

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you also need to make sure

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're building connection and community

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: in the virtual environments that you're in.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: At LivingHR we have a chat

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: that's called Keep It Light

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and people just put things that are light and fun

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and have no bearing

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but it starts a lot of really great conversation.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: They have a foodie channel in our Zoom chat

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that is all about just different recipes.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: They get to know each other

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and have other ways of creating community

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and virtual settings that are just as important now.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think unfortunately,

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: most employers haven't designed their workplace

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: or their employee experience to be both

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: or what's right suited for either.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: That is definitely the case.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Now there's one thing that you also,

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we were briefly talking about.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: This is, we've been blaming the employers

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: quite a bit at this point

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: but what do you think employees are not getting right

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: in this whole?

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's interesting too.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen a lot of challenge lately with

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think a lot of it has to do with the burnout

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that everybody talks about.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: The workforce is just burnt out

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and to your point earlier, they are somewhat lonely

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think some of that is

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: they're missing the social benefits that feed us

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and make us feel better

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_00]: because we've been with other people.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But I also think there's this interesting kind of sentiment

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that I think employees are expecting employers

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: to grow their careers.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I will contend that growing your career

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: is not the responsibility of the employer.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not owed anything in that sense.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's something that if you want it,

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_00]: you gotta go get it

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and nobody's gonna hand that to you.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, should they buy tools like Engagedly

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and have platforms to be able to show the employee

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: how they get there

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and provide learning opportunities?

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But there is something too

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that employees have to really be willing

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: to do what it takes to advance their careers,

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: invest in their own learning,

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: get yourself a mentor,

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: do those types of things

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: because other people will

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and when you don't,

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: you can't be upset that somebody else is advancing

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: or they're moving up

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's not necessarily like a hustle culture thing.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just somebody is really invested in their career.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's important to them.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we've gotta shift that mindset.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I also think the flexibility

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: isn't something that is just granted,

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: it's an exchange for performance

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to meet grants flexibility.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We're trusting you to as an employee

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: deliver to the organization

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and to take advantage of that flexibility

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and use it in ways that is not for the benefit

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: of the employer or the customer

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: or whoever that may be in that scenario,

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what gets people into trouble.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think taking advantage of the employers

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: that are offering the right things

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: is just as it's just unethical

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think that's what creates

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: this continuous broken trust dynamic

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: is those that take advantage.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's the key.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the employees have to take ownership of their career

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and ask for opportunities.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But then once the opportunities are given,

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like they should then show

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that they've taken advantage of those opportunities

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and not let it lose.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I've seen this in the past

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: where employees like I'm not learning and growing,

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I need this, I need that.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, absolutely, let's do it.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We give them membership to different associations,

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: outside training groups, internal training programs

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: or access to learning libraries that are available

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_02]: like Udemy and the likes of those.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you see the data,

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: it's 20% even logged in.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll use it, yeah.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like, okay, you were given the opportunity

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_02]: so we didn't take advantage of it

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and we ended up spending money on things

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that could have been spent somewhere else more fruitfully.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So those are some of the things

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: where I'm not blaming everyone.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously I'm saying there's cohorts who do that

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and the cohorts who do take advantage of that.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And those are the ones who will succeed and grow

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and the other people eventually are left behind

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and they don't get the same career growth opportunities

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_02]: or that and the compensation changes that come with it,

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_02]: in which case they end up going somewhere else

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and repeating the same cycle somewhere else

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: for a little bit more.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's a big one that I do agree with.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you're right is that those that do care

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and that do you wanna grow their career

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and do contribute the sad part to me

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: is that it's very hard for an employer

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: to have visibility into which ones are which.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And so you end up,

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's part of why some of these technology tools

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: are so important is when you look at things

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: like utilization and you see who's really engaged

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in their career and is trying to grow a career,

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: then you have proof of concept.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas I think a lot of times

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: things become very subjective

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's unfortunately just the manager

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that is highlighting somebody is doing a great job.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: This person, and it's not based on the data

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that we can see if you're not using a system

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: to actually measure it.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, great.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think just to close out this conversation

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: in an ideal scenario,

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_02]: what does, if you were to summarize

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: a new contract between employees and employer look like?

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it is,

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a deal we need to make with employees

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that gives them complete access and visibility

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and transparency around here's what you get

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: when you work here.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the offer we're making in a true sense.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna give you this flexibility.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna give you this amount in learning dollars.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You can use it how you want to.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna give you all the right benefits.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna give you places of connection.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And then when we're clear that we gave them

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that true value proposition

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: for why this is a great place to work,

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_00]: then we need to make sure

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that they're holding themselves accountable

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: to contributing based on outcomes and performance.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And so to me,

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: performance is the big driver of all of this, right?

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that if we can really focus on outcomes and success

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and what that looks like,

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and then we're exchanging in that way in the future,

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: it's gonna be a lot healthier.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think people are gonna feel a lot better.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise it just feels hard, right?

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It feels like I'm doing all this work

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm not getting all this credit

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm just spinning my wheels.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And so a lot of it has to do with expectations

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: setting around here's what we're really expecting

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: out of you.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's what we are gonna give you in exchange for that.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of it has to do with performance and outcomes.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I completely agree.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a big one.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Getting to the right outcomes for any given role

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: is a hard one for a lot of organizations

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: to get their hands around it.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That's where things like OKR helps,

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: but they need to be really good at doing OKRs.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I've noticed OKR tool doesn't solve it

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: because we use OKRs internally

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: but you also have lots of clients using OKRs

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and it just turns into a task list

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of an actual OKR.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot to unpack there

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and hopefully the organizations get a better handle on it.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But I am seeing more and more organizations

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: moving towards outcome based to some extent

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think it's still a long way to go.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It is a long way to go.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We're trying and it's slow.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very hard to do.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's something that I believe in and I've seen it

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and I built a company to try to get at the problem

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's still hard.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't something that's a flip the switch

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of thing.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I also think that just being really clear

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_00]: about the expectation setting around

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: what employees say they want and what employers believe,

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's another big opportunity

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: where we have to be clear that employers

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: are missing sometimes the empathy

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: of the reality of the employee's lives.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And so giving employers better pictures

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: of what employees are actually going through

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: gives them, I think the ability to design workplaces

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that are more meant for those employees.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So things like over 50% of the people

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that access food are employed.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Those are our employees.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we have to be really cognizant

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: when things happen in the economy

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and things that change caregiver benefits

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: or things that impact people's just basic human needs.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: As employers, we have to be very aware

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: of what we're asking people to do

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: given their circumstances.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, completely agree.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Keri.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a pleasure chatting with you

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and talking about this new contract.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_02]: How can people learn more about you

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and the organization?

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're all over LinkedIn

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but we're also at livinghr.com.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Our LinkedIn page is very active.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We also hold a Chief People Officer

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: collective group quarterly.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're a Chief People Officer

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: we'd invite you to join that as well.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you so much for having me Sri.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: This was a lot of fun.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great conversation we should keep having.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, thank you.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Sri Chalapa here.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for listening

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: to the People Strategy Leaders podcast.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_02]: If you are a successful leader

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: or a people strategist who would like

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: to be on this program

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02]: please visit engagedly.com

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: slash People Strategy Leaders podcast.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: If you got something out of this interview

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: would you share this episode on social media?

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: If you know someone that would be a great guest

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: tag them on social media to let them know

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: about the show and include the hashtag

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: People Strategy Leaders.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I love seeing your posts and guest suggestions.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We are regularly putting out new episodes and content.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: To make sure you don't miss any episodes

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: go ahead and subscribe.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Your thumbs up, ratings and reviews

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: go a long way to help promote the show

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and mean a lot to me and my team.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Want to know more?

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter at Sri Chalapa.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: We will see you next time.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And thank you to Patrick Ramsey,

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: sound engineer at Kalinga Production Studios

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: for recording and mixing this show.