The Argument: Better Architecture Everyday – Architecture in Business and Technology

[00:00:00] Recording and Progress Hi, this is Paul Price with the argument. I have two of my favorite

[00:00:12] people in the world on with me today, and this was a bit unscripted so I'm really excited

[00:00:17] about this conversation. Wendy Keen and I'm gonna let them introduce themselves, but Wendy

[00:00:22] Keen, one of the founders of the BA Guild and obviously Straight Talk podcast and webinars

[00:00:28] and Eva Kamma-Four who represents one of the strongest bodies of knowledge for chief

[00:00:34] architects that I've seen in the world. So thank you guys for joining us. I'll let

[00:00:38] you do a little brief introductions. Great to be here. I'm honored to be here with

[00:00:43] both of you, and I'm Wendy Keen, longtime business architecture, practitioner, educator,

[00:00:49] thought leader, and as Paul mentioned, I do the Straight Talk Business Architecture, Straight

[00:00:56] Talk podcast series. So this is just a continuation of those conversations that have real

[00:01:01] honest and practical conversations with experts like both of you.

[00:01:05] Thanks, Wendy and Paul, and so nice to invite to be invited, Paul, and I look really forward

[00:01:13] to this conversation. I have been working also with the enterprise architecture and business

[00:01:19] architecture long time, and now focusing a lot of chief architects as someone

[00:01:26] who has to take the management and leadership also of the architecture practice in organizations.

[00:01:35] Well, so I mean this is easy. We could say it's easy enough to get started. Let's start with a

[00:01:42] great big question here. We're planning this sort of architecture of tomorrow. We're all

[00:01:47] everybody's doing their end-of-year conferences. What a year we are also all dealing with this

[00:01:52] whole question of is the COVID 2.0, and what does that mean, and how is that impacting us?

[00:01:57] I'd rather just start with sort of what are the big topics that you see architects facing?

[00:02:04] What are our challenges? What are we bumping up against now that we've been a year and a half

[00:02:10] going on two years in COVID? The profession itself is changing a lot. So I'm just kind of getting

[00:02:19] what's your big picture view right now? I could mention something related to the COVID and the

[00:02:27] isolation that has been a result of the COVID pandemic, which is very hard to look at as we need

[00:02:38] architects to really come together from the different architecture practices. We need to have

[00:02:45] good cooperation and that's the full view and meaning and the purpose of architecture work to

[00:02:51] getting people together. That's one of the challenges that I have seen, but now since we have

[00:02:58] lived with this quite a long time now, actually over a year, we have also found that we can work

[00:03:05] more in digital and to support each other in the practice. But we need to still continue to work

[00:03:12] with creating these structures for cooperation between architects. So I'm really important

[00:03:19] looking very much forward to all these community and conferences that you are also arranging

[00:03:26] both of you and giving talks to get this community together even though we work a lot of isolated

[00:03:35] work. That's one of my main political stakeholders management has always been so hard.

[00:03:44] It's you know, we're glad to be kind of working on approaches to that, but COVID has definitely

[00:03:51] made the interpersonal relationships that much more difficult, etc. Wendy, what do you,

[00:03:58] I mean, what are your thoughts? Where are you seeing things go? You've been really busy building

[00:04:03] up the podcast and bodies of knowledge and all of everything. Obviously one of the leaders

[00:04:10] of the business architect, entire business architecture, specialization, field, profession,

[00:04:15] whatever we're going to call it. So from the big picture, kind of a pulse right now. Well,

[00:04:22] you know, there's always in the background this challenge we have around business architecture

[00:04:27] and architecture overall to socialize it and introduce it and be able to deliver value with it.

[00:04:35] And so I think the pandemic has in some ways challenged that with the face-to-face, but in other

[00:04:42] ways has sped it up because for example early on when companies were reacting and needing to make

[00:04:50] some big strategic decisions, you know, there was sort of a lifting up of architecture to realize how

[00:04:56] helpful this blueprint is to making decisions and understanding what we do and being able to react

[00:05:01] and plan for change. So I think that piece is always out there, but I think the other piece coincide

[00:05:08] me with that. And Eva, I couldn't agree more with what you said around architects needing to work

[00:05:12] together. But you know, the other part is as much as we're still establishing architecture

[00:05:19] and we're still growing as architects, the scenarios we need to handle are escalating, right?

[00:05:26] It's we're not just architecting organizations for example. We are architecting in ecosystems

[00:05:32] and so there is I think this challenge of how we come together, you know, be able to deliver

[00:05:38] comprehensive value with architecture to be able to keep meeting where the business is going

[00:05:43] on these more and more complex scenarios that are happening quickly. Oh my god, please tell me,

[00:05:48] are we going to see the title ecosystem architect soon?

[00:05:53] If you don't see it, we are going to be architecting in ecosystems. In some organizations already are.

[00:05:57] Well, I mean, so do you think about I'm as I was supposed to travel. I still have one trip that

[00:06:03] may still happen. I was supposed to travel to both to get to meet to see both of you again in

[00:06:08] face-to-face, which it's been many years. But you know, I don't really like traveling on airplanes.

[00:06:18] Okay, you know when I was eight I liked it. Right? You get your little wings everywhere.

[00:06:22] But you think about it. Nobody really loves being on an airplane who's not flying one, right?

[00:06:28] Maybe if you have your own plane or something like that. I can imagine if somebody Bill Gates wants

[00:06:35] to call me or Elon and fly me somewhere on his personal jet, I can imagine enjoying that

[00:06:40] or better yet Tony Stark. He seems like he would know how to make air travel fun.

[00:06:47] But to your ecosystem point, right? It's that end-to-end customer journey, right? Because it's

[00:06:51] taxis and ubers and hotels and restaurants and meetings and you know, oh, and I'd like to,

[00:06:59] you know, I want to get over to that special art museum. And I want to stop by that one bookstore

[00:07:04] and I really like to get out to the fjords a little bit to see some of that before it gets cold again.

[00:07:11] So that is an ecosystem. But the architects across that ecosystem don't know each other.

[00:07:18] I mean, right? I mean, we're all islands of individual views of what it is.

[00:07:26] But here's the beautiful thing. Architecture as envisioned scales. All we need to do

[00:07:33] is shift our mindset to think a different scope. And maybe if my organization has an end-to-end value

[00:07:40] here, but together in an ecosystem or end-to-end values here, all the tools, all the pieces still work.

[00:07:46] We just need to shift our mindsets and bring our strategists and leaders and other partners

[00:07:50] to the table. But how do we do that when we can't even get along ourselves? I mean,

[00:07:55] I mean, what I love about this forum is really you identify as a business architect.

[00:08:01] You know, you identify as a technical or as a chief architect with a strong technology background.

[00:08:07] Now, I identify as a software architect. It doesn't matter how big the bring them.

[00:08:11] We give $250 million or $400 million dollar software project, $1 billion dollar software project fine.

[00:08:16] Right? I know that I'm going to work with a lot of specialists.

[00:08:21] How do we... First of all, how do we just get past? I don't see anybody accepting us

[00:08:27] until we stop arguing with each other, which is funny because I call this the argument.

[00:08:33] But like, how do we bridge that gap? Yes. I think you're on a really good

[00:08:41] part there, Paul, because I think that's... We are focusing very much isolated on the different

[00:08:46] architecture practices and the different architecture roles, different architect roles.

[00:08:51] And I think one trick could be to focus even more on the architecture itself and the ecosystem,

[00:08:58] as you mentioned, because then we can show value and we are able to work more out country

[00:09:04] than create this interest for architectural work and really get it going together.

[00:09:12] Because I think that's one of the problems that we're focusing too much on the different practices

[00:09:16] and the different roles. Maybe? That's just a thought.

[00:09:21] Absolutely. And to even add on to that, so I think that's value and purpose.

[00:09:29] A bigger purpose than ourselves is the way through this and that's where we need to sort of bond

[00:09:37] together around. Now followed by that, I also think... I think this is a tremendously important

[00:09:42] conversation. What you're... We're talking about here because I think we are at a point with

[00:09:47] architecture where, frankly, our organizations and societies need us and it is incredibly important

[00:09:52] in meaningful role. But I think to get past some of those arguments, I think we need to really

[00:09:59] identify what are the non-negotiables or what are the things that we hold precious

[00:10:04] and what knits us together as architects and then what are the things within that that can flex?

[00:10:09] Because what doesn't work is our arguments around this is the only way to do it and this is

[00:10:14] the only way to do it and we go here. We've got to rally around something bigger and allow us to

[00:10:19] flex within somehow a broader framework. Now you said something that I think is one of the

[00:10:25] fundamental debates between sort of... Let's just call them for the time being, for the sake of

[00:10:30] the argument, we're going to call them your people and my people, right? So my software architects

[00:10:36] heard you say, architect the organization, right? Or the architecture used by stakeholders and stuff.

[00:10:45] And they immediately think that's not my job, right? I'm here to deliver value against this

[00:10:53] $50 million project that I'm working on and it is a complex piece of software and I'm worried about

[00:10:59] microservices versus this or that. Now how is it? But, you know, I'm a believer, right?

[00:11:07] You know, I believe that competencies and specializations can work together and should work together

[00:11:14] just in the same way that medical specializations do or legal specializations or other kinds.

[00:11:20] But again, this language gap seems to kill us every time, right? So for example, if I'm a software

[00:11:29] architect working on... And let's say that I'm a lead software architect for a major project.

[00:11:33] How does your capability model or your business model canvas, or your strategy scorecard? How do

[00:11:41] those help me execute more effectively, right? And flip side, what do I need to know to be able...

[00:11:49] You know, what are we doing, let's say at runtime, that's specific in your mind?

[00:11:55] And, you know, and how do we make that work?

[00:11:59] Yeah. So I think it's first important to... What will Paul have to give a huge, huge, huge props to

[00:12:10] you because I think what underpins this is what you have been a global advocate for which is

[00:12:16] architects are a profession where we all have a base training of architecture and we have

[00:12:21] specializations on top of that. That I think is part of the answer and we don't always do that,

[00:12:27] right? Organizations don't always do that because if we shared that first of all,

[00:12:31] we would share that base language. We would share I think a more in common and a bigger picture.

[00:12:37] So first of all, that just underpins it. But the other thing is I think there's a fit for purpose

[00:12:44] point to be made here. And this is a challenge for business architecture overall because I think

[00:12:50] people may be interpreted as what it isn't sometimes or trying to solve problems that it's not

[00:12:55] trying to do. It is trying to bridge certain gaps. It's not trying to specify detailed requirements.

[00:13:02] It's trying to translate big ideas and harmonize, you know, work and initiatives across the organization.

[00:13:09] It's trying to shape work. It's trying to make sure that what we're doing is aligned back to the

[00:13:15] strategy. So it's shaping, it's making sure we're working on the right things and sure we can say,

[00:13:21] well, can capabilities be used to identify software services and where the changes. But again,

[00:13:27] it's pointing to what is the change and what do we need to be working on? It's not trying to answer all

[00:13:32] those questions. It gives us the bigger context and I think it's just important that we don't make it

[00:13:37] do more than what it is supposed to do in that very elegant role. I like that we, and also that you say

[00:13:44] that we must explore together to find ways of working. That's also really important to do that

[00:13:54] because no one has the answers today. It's a common work and it's also practice of

[00:14:02] the discipline that is still growing and we are learning about both our own organizations and

[00:14:08] also how to practice architecture. I think we need to explore ways of working and do these capability

[00:14:15] business model canvas integration, maps, application landscapes more and more together.

[00:14:22] I love that word explore. I like the way that you both think about that as this

[00:14:28] navigating the unknown together, right? And well, and sometimes the known. I mean, I think quite

[00:14:37] frankly, a lot of our organizational clients. And this is something that I would love to get your

[00:14:41] thoughts on. I guess because we have maybe the time for like one more little brief conversation.

[00:14:46] And this will just be part one and we can do part 35 if we, you know, with the three of us easily.

[00:14:54] But I like that word explore together, but sometimes I also think that the organization

[00:14:59] is so far behind what we already know how to do. How do you, you know, as a chief architect,

[00:15:06] as an architecture practice? And I love this word practice because, you know, you never hear people

[00:15:13] say the VP of medicine, right? It's always the chief of medicine or the chief of surgery and the

[00:15:19] medical practice or the legal practice, right? Professionals are part of a practice whether they,

[00:15:25] cares where they report, right? But I'd love to get your thoughts on just finally on that,

[00:15:31] on that how do we start teaching organizations to use these tools better? I think, Ava, you use the

[00:15:42] analogy of a staircase. So how do we start teaching people? You know, what are we supposed to

[00:15:47] maintain? When do they supposed to take it over? How do we start teaching organizations about

[00:15:53] architecture more? So I think it's a way of looking also at yourself as an architect and on the

[00:16:01] architecture practice. And I think the staircase method for that I love to use is related to when we

[00:16:09] are building our architecture capability together with other architects in our organizations,

[00:16:17] we sometimes hide underneath this staircase. We build up and we get better and better,

[00:16:25] new tools and new ways of working and better and better. But the ones that are actually using

[00:16:32] the staircase are stakeholders, the business stakeholders, the technology stakeholders,

[00:16:38] have the most value of the architecture itself. They are walking up, we are not there. So I think you

[00:16:48] are not the thing way of working in the future is also to connect with those and walk together on

[00:16:55] this there but also understand what we need that we should use to get things going up to Nirvana.

[00:17:03] Nirvana. Your case to Nirvana. Are we going to start the next episode with a stairway to heaven because

[00:17:12] Led Zeppelin is literally one of my things. So I think we found our theme song.

[00:17:22] So Wendy, why don't you have the last word since we have a we've got our hard stop and then why don't

[00:17:27] you have the last word on the topic? We'll do. We'll do. Well, I think how do we educate? How do we

[00:17:37] help our folks in our organizations understand architecture? Well, I love the staircase analogy because

[00:17:43] the higher and higher they go on that staircase, the more and more value it is to the business overall.

[00:17:49] And I think as much as we're architects, we are also like and are not leaders, change agents

[00:17:56] in catalysts. And I think what we have to do is help our organizations paint that vision for where

[00:18:03] that staircase is going and what the business is going to be able to do as they progress up that

[00:18:09] and then our architecture comes alongside that right? Our artifacts and what we do and helping

[00:18:14] other people to use the architecture because I think also the success of architecture

[00:18:18] is not just architects using it but anybody being able to use it in the right places as well.

[00:18:24] So thank you both for being on the argument and especially so spontaneously. And I was really glad

[00:18:32] that we decided to record this spontaneously. The next topic, the next time we get together on this,

[00:18:38] I'd like to dig into what are these artifacts and what's the difference between architect tools

[00:18:44] and artifacts, things that only are useful to us and that we use versus things that we've used

[00:18:51] to build the stairway to heaven, right? Things that we communicate because you and I can talk in

[00:18:56] shorthand. I mean, you know like because we speak architect, right? But our stakeholders maybe

[00:19:03] they need other things. I'd love to dig into that next time. Anyway, thank you so much for this.

[00:19:09] Hopefully it came out as good for you guys as it did meet but look forward to seeing you're talking

[00:19:16] to you again a thousand times on the broadcast. Thank you, you too. Come with me.