Example of Technical Debt and Its Cultural Consequences with Ken Knapton

[00:00:10] Hey there my friends, you're listening to the Hot Mess Hotline and this is Stefanie

[00:00:15] Krievins.

[00:00:16] You're in the right place if you're an ambitious leader who is charged with delivering on the

[00:00:20] tech of the future right now.

[00:00:23] In order to do that, you and your team must upskill and tackle old problems with new

[00:00:28] ways of thinking.

[00:00:30] In the past we would have called this change management and leadership development but

[00:00:34] change is now the air that we breathe and your team needs a unified strategy for

[00:00:38] the 21st century.

[00:00:40] That's what we have for you here.

[00:00:42] These executive level conversations are nuanced, insightful and hard-earned lessons from leaders

[00:00:48] just like you that you can put into practice as soon as this episode is over.

[00:00:53] Small tweaks have huge impact.

[00:00:55] Take what's new and useful and leave the rest.

[00:00:59] Today's conversation is with my new friend Ken Napton.

[00:01:02] He is an accomplished technology leader with extensive experience in leading IT functions,

[00:01:07] driving efficiency, automation.

[00:01:10] Most importantly he has created a way to catalog and monetize tech debt inside of our organizations

[00:01:17] and that's really what our conversation is going to revolve around today.

[00:01:22] Not only is he an expert on tech debt, he has secured multiple patents and is recognized

[00:01:27] as a subject matter expert in this area and serves on the Forbes Tech Council.

[00:01:32] He also leads Rocky Mountain CIO and they provide strategic IT direction and advice for

[00:01:38] our small and mid-sized businesses who aren't ready to hire that full-time CIO yet.

[00:01:43] So let's dig into this conversation about tech debt and the many implications and the

[00:01:49] many problems that it causes.

[00:01:50] Let's go.

[00:01:51] Ken, sir, tell us about your hot mess.

[00:01:54] You know I am so glad to be with you today.

[00:01:56] It's an exciting.

[00:01:57] I was looking forward to this conversation.

[00:01:58] So yeah, hot mess.

[00:02:01] Right?

[00:02:02] Hot mess.

[00:02:03] So this was a situation that I stepped into.

[00:02:08] I kind of stepped into this hot mess.

[00:02:10] So I was hired into it.

[00:02:11] You stepped into the staming pile of yuckiness.

[00:02:14] I stepped right into it.

[00:02:16] Yeah, that's correct.

[00:02:19] So it kind of starts from the beginning.

[00:02:22] So I was hired into an organization where they were two years and $10 million into a sales

[00:02:31] force implementation.

[00:02:33] And they had nothing to show for it, but nothing in production, nothing functional.

[00:02:39] So there's your hot mess.

[00:02:41] Right here.

[00:02:42] Woo, that's mean.

[00:02:43] Yeah, it was a mess.

[00:02:45] I mean it was...

[00:02:47] And by the way, we'll get into this as we go along.

[00:02:50] But I want to say right up front.

[00:02:52] This had nothing to do with sales force.

[00:02:54] This could have been name your product.

[00:02:57] This could have been any other solution that it did not have to do with the sales force

[00:03:02] solution itself.

[00:03:04] It really does.

[00:03:06] That's a great idea.

[00:03:09] That's right.

[00:03:11] So I was hired into this situation and of course, the first thing I had to do was

[00:03:15] figure out how did we get here?

[00:03:18] How did we end up in this terrible situation?

[00:03:22] And I'll tell you, it didn't take very long to figure that out.

[00:03:28] It was pretty clear.

[00:03:29] Really?

[00:03:30] Let me guess.

[00:03:31] It had to do something with the culture maybe?

[00:03:33] Maybe.

[00:03:34] You know?

[00:03:35] Spot on.

[00:03:36] Yeah.

[00:03:37] I don't know.

[00:03:38] Yeah.

[00:03:39] So there were two kind of common mistakes that been made.

[00:03:45] And I've seen these before by the way.

[00:03:47] I mean, we could talk about other hot messes from prior lives.

[00:03:52] But we'd be talking about almost the same.

[00:03:54] We have almost the same conversation because I've seen this over and over and over.

[00:04:00] So two things I found right off the bat.

[00:04:05] One, they were not looking at this solution as an enterprise platform solution.

[00:04:16] Now when you invest in something like Salesforce, and again it could be any other solution.

[00:04:20] But you know, in this case that's what it was.

[00:04:22] You're looking to provide a platform for your organization.

[00:04:27] You have all kinds of functionality capability.

[00:04:29] Lots of stuff come along with the licenses that you're purchasing.

[00:04:34] And this organization was looking at this as well, this is servicing solutions.

[00:04:43] Servicing is implementing this.

[00:04:45] And so sales, marketing, finance, or everybody else was like, oh, I hope they do great over

[00:04:52] there.

[00:04:53] I hope they do just fine with their solution.

[00:04:57] And so they weren't looking at this holistically as a platform.

[00:05:01] And so one of the problems that caused, and this was a little bit later on in the kind

[00:05:06] of investigation as I figured out what was happening.

[00:05:10] One of the problems that caused was they were paying duplicative license fees.

[00:05:17] They had duplicative technology.

[00:05:19] The platform provided this capability, but they were paying for another solution outside

[00:05:27] of that platform.

[00:05:29] And they were continuing to pay for that.

[00:05:30] So now they had solutions that they were not using, but paying for.

[00:05:36] And I mean, that was to the tune of $5 million of annual license fees.

[00:05:42] $5 million of duplicative service.

[00:05:46] Yep.

[00:05:47] And this, that was only, we limited when we quantified that number.

[00:05:52] We limited our investigation to only the capabilities that they actually had and that

[00:05:59] they were already paying for.

[00:06:01] So obviously in Salesforce, there's lots of other things you can buy, you can

[00:06:05] add on, you can check.

[00:06:07] And with other solutions as well.

[00:06:09] So it wasn't, hey, we could have this.

[00:06:12] It was, we're already paying for this and we're not using it.

[00:06:17] Or we're paying for it from three or four.

[00:06:20] In one case, there were four different solutions for the same technology across

[00:06:26] the organization where sales was using one.

[00:06:30] So this was on a revenue perspective, there were about 500 million,

[00:06:36] four or 500 million somewhere in there.

[00:06:38] Okay.

[00:06:38] Okay.

[00:06:39] So headcount we were, when I started, we were a little over 4,000 employees.

[00:06:45] Okay.

[00:06:45] I had about 200 in my organization, 220.

[00:06:50] Okay.

[00:06:51] And the reason I ask is there are some organizations that are super complex

[00:06:56] where duplication is necessary sometimes.

[00:07:00] I mean, I think the cases are more rare than they are, they make sense to.

[00:07:05] But at that size, you can't justify that.

[00:07:10] We cannot.

[00:07:10] No, for sure.

[00:07:11] For sure.

[00:07:11] You're right.

[00:07:12] And some large organizations, yes, you may, there may be valid reasons for this

[00:07:16] organization to have their own solution, this organization to have their own.

[00:07:19] Sure.

[00:07:19] In this organization, that was not the case.

[00:07:22] And there were some significant revenue pressures as well.

[00:07:30] There were some significant headwinds here.

[00:07:32] So cost containment was super important.

[00:07:37] I mean, we were during the course of my time there, we had several layoffs,

[00:07:42] probably five or six layoffs.

[00:07:45] And so you look at, well, do we layoff employees or do we consolidate our duplicative

[00:07:53] licenses?

[00:07:54] Yeah.

[00:07:55] And in this case, people were losing their job.

[00:07:58] And so, yeah, cost containment was absolutely critical.

[00:08:02] Oh my gosh.

[00:08:02] And can you share what those overlapping services were?

[00:08:06] And if you can't, that's okay.

[00:08:07] But I'm thinking just to put meat on the bones here so people understand.

[00:08:11] Yeah.

[00:08:11] So there were several.

[00:08:13] I'll give you just one example.

[00:08:14] There were several places again.

[00:08:15] We did a full investigation.

[00:08:16] We looked at all the different solutions that they were using.

[00:08:19] The one case that was the most obvious was chat solution.

[00:08:24] So we had in Salesforce, obviously there is a chat capability.

[00:08:28] Yes.

[00:08:29] And it comes with the tool.

[00:08:30] We'd already bought it.

[00:08:31] It was there.

[00:08:32] Nothing was in place for chat or Salesforce.

[00:08:36] They had a solution that they had purchased solely for the servicing

[00:08:42] department a couple of years back.

[00:08:45] And that was, they have several hundred thousand dollars they were

[00:08:48] paying just for chat for people calling in to service their accounts

[00:08:53] to be able to chat with them.

[00:08:54] Stales had their own solution.

[00:08:56] So they weren't even using the same one that servicing was using.

[00:08:59] They went out and chose a different one because they felt like, well,

[00:09:05] that doesn't be our needs now.

[00:09:09] Yeah, that was my reaction.

[00:09:11] Right?

[00:09:12] Sorry.

[00:09:13] It's a chat solution.

[00:09:14] Right?

[00:09:15] I mean, come on.

[00:09:15] I mean, I don't want to downplay it too much.

[00:09:17] Right?

[00:09:17] But yes.

[00:09:18] I mean, come on.

[00:09:19] You can make it work.

[00:09:21] And then they had a third chat solution.

[00:09:25] So sales had their own servicing had their own.

[00:09:27] Salesforce had one that was not being used at all.

[00:09:30] And then there was a fourth solution that had come from a prior acquisition

[00:09:35] that they just never integrated.

[00:09:39] And that was for servicing of their customers from this other acquisition.

[00:09:46] And so four solutions that we are actively paying for, actively using,

[00:09:50] managing, maintaining, monitoring, complete waste of money.

[00:09:54] And so you take that and you can kind of, you know,

[00:09:56] expand that out to other types of solutions.

[00:09:59] Other logic.

[00:10:00] Yes.

[00:10:01] Yeah.

[00:10:01] And so again, we kind of looked at the whole picture.

[00:10:04] $5 million worth of annual license fees.

[00:10:09] And that's just the cold hard cash.

[00:10:11] Like I'm envisioning because I just had this situation with a company

[00:10:15] that I ordered something very expensive online from, sorry, not online,

[00:10:20] through the store or it's all serviced on the back end.

[00:10:22] All those disconnected services, all those platforms that as a customer

[00:10:27] you're interacting with different functionality in your life cycle

[00:10:31] with that company.

[00:10:32] That means data doesn't get transferred.

[00:10:34] That means you can't service the customer seamlessly

[00:10:37] because you don't have consistent information.

[00:10:39] Like the opportunity costs behind that and the frustration of a customer.

[00:10:45] Oh, that's what I say.

[00:10:47] I'm going to lose my biscuits.

[00:10:48] Like that would make me lose my biscuits,

[00:10:50] interact with the company that does that.

[00:10:52] And they're still around today.

[00:10:53] You know, I'm sorry.

[00:10:54] Companies that think that way by way of technology

[00:10:57] not having a seamless customer experience, they still exist.

[00:11:00] And I just spent $2,100 with them.

[00:11:03] And it's very frustrating.

[00:11:07] Yeah, like I said, this is a common problem.

[00:11:09] It's amazing to me how common this is.

[00:11:11] But people get, you know, it's a to use a kind of a common term, right?

[00:11:18] It's the silos that exist inside the organization

[00:11:22] where the marketing person says, well, this is what our team needs.

[00:11:27] This is what we like.

[00:11:28] We have expertise in this or we've used it before or whatever.

[00:11:33] And you have servicing running their organization.

[00:11:35] This is what we want.

[00:11:36] And nobody's really looking across the organization

[00:11:38] to say, well, hey, yes, this may not be ideal for you,

[00:11:44] but it will work.

[00:11:46] Right?

[00:11:46] It's good enough.

[00:11:47] It's going to meet your needs.

[00:11:50] And again, you have to quantify that in the organization

[00:11:53] to find out how meaningful is this to our bottom line.

[00:11:58] Yes.

[00:11:58] And it's interesting that you had mentioned the data aspect of it

[00:12:02] because you know what?

[00:12:04] The number one thing that each of these leaders,

[00:12:07] each of my peers, number one thing they were talking to me

[00:12:10] about on a regular basis was, hey,

[00:12:14] we don't have the right data in our chat solution.

[00:12:18] Or it's not, we're not getting the right data.

[00:12:20] We don't have clean data.

[00:12:21] I'm like, of course you don't.

[00:12:23] Of course you don't.

[00:12:24] The solution is not integrated.

[00:12:28] You have this thing and we're trying to export data

[00:12:31] from this other solution over here

[00:12:33] so that you can have what you need when,

[00:12:36] if we just use that from Salesforce.

[00:12:38] If we were using Salesforce as a platform,

[00:12:41] like it was intended to be, that's

[00:12:44] the purpose of a platform, right?

[00:12:46] And the keyword is enterprise for the enterprise.

[00:12:50] I'm being a little salty today, a little sassy here,

[00:12:53] but one of the things that you talked about was,

[00:12:56] sales bought their own chat platform.

[00:12:59] And I'm sure sales bought their own fill in the blank

[00:13:01] product, right?

[00:13:02] Or service on my apologies.

[00:13:04] Then marketing made the same decisions

[00:13:05] and bought their own fill in the blank.

[00:13:07] And then sales, sorry, sales service, ops,

[00:13:11] this other company, yeah, all of them, right?

[00:13:14] All of these leaders taking time out of their busy schedules

[00:13:17] to make their own decisions.

[00:13:19] And we've talked about the word tech.

[00:13:22] One of the things that our conversation inspired me

[00:13:24] to think about as we were getting ready today

[00:13:26] was tech silos and cultural silos,

[00:13:30] they feed off of each other, right?

[00:13:32] And so what did you learn about

[00:13:37] how, like what that relationship looked like

[00:13:39] in this company?

[00:13:41] So it's fascinating.

[00:13:42] And by the way, that leads right into tech debt.

[00:13:47] So I quantify all of this that we're talking about as tech debt.

[00:13:51] If you have four different chat solutions,

[00:13:55] one of them should be your long-term vision,

[00:13:58] your long-term strategic plan from the IT perspective.

[00:14:01] This is the one we're gonna go with.

[00:14:03] The rest of them are all tech debt.

[00:14:05] Every dollar that you spend managing, maintaining,

[00:14:08] operating that is wasted money.

[00:14:12] And that's tech debt, right?

[00:14:15] And so yeah, so how did we get there as an organization?

[00:14:19] Well, part of the challenge here was that the CEO,

[00:14:25] I guess, you know, the buck always stops at the CEO, right?

[00:14:27] But in this case, he wanted to keep people accountable.

[00:14:31] But in order to do that, he wanted to give them

[00:14:33] the autonomy that they needed to run their organization.

[00:14:37] And so he would look at his sales leader and say,

[00:14:39] okay, what do you need?

[00:14:42] Go, I'm gonna give it to you, go do what you need.

[00:14:45] He'd look at his market leader,

[00:14:46] look at you run this organization,

[00:14:48] gonna give you the autonomy to go do what you need.

[00:14:51] And that's a really good attribute of a leader.

[00:14:57] Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:14:59] You're giving the autonomy and you're holding them

[00:15:01] accountable and that's great.

[00:15:04] Where it caused problems was when that overlapped

[00:15:09] into the technology staff, right?

[00:15:13] So rather than saying, hey, you have the autonomy

[00:15:16] to do what you need, go work with the CIO

[00:15:20] to make sure that you're making technological decisions

[00:15:23] at an enterprise perspective that are also

[00:15:25] in the best of just of the company.

[00:15:27] Yes.

[00:15:28] You know, that's the step that didn't happen.

[00:15:31] And so now each individual department head

[00:15:35] was truly leading their own silo

[00:15:39] and building their own tech stack.

[00:15:42] And then coming in complaining to me that,

[00:15:44] hey, we don't have the right data.

[00:15:46] Yeah, they won't tell me what I need.

[00:15:48] Exactly, right.

[00:15:49] So this other department, I need the data that they have.

[00:15:53] Get it to me somehow.

[00:15:57] And so that was the first kind of big problem

[00:16:00] that we ran into with this particular implementation.

[00:16:03] Oh my gosh.

[00:16:04] And I see this play out day in and day out

[00:16:09] because what silos also make possible is a blame culture.

[00:16:14] Well, this other silo won't give me what I want

[00:16:17] so I can't do what I promised.

[00:16:20] And it just creates, I mean, ickiness, politics.

[00:16:25] I mean, all not great things in a culture.

[00:16:28] And then you've got tech decisions beating into that.

[00:16:31] And I'm also curious, like how far reaching

[00:16:35] did that kind of decision making style go?

[00:16:38] Because I'm thinking if marketing says,

[00:16:41] I get to buy the tech that I need to do effective marketing

[00:16:44] without thinking about the other functions of the company,

[00:16:47] does sales get to say,

[00:16:50] I have to do the marketing that I need to do

[00:16:53] to fuel sales in the way that I want to do it?

[00:16:56] Like where does that logic stop?

[00:16:59] Yeah, no, that's a great point.

[00:17:01] Because they are all dependent on each other.

[00:17:04] It is one company.

[00:17:06] One, one.

[00:17:07] Yeah, yeah, it's one company.

[00:17:08] So yeah, it's fascinating.

[00:17:10] And I'll tell you, it reminds me,

[00:17:12] one of the things, I've worked in a lot of industries.

[00:17:16] I've worked in a lot of companies.

[00:17:17] And one of the things that I do every time I start a job,

[00:17:22] I go to each of my peers and I sit down

[00:17:24] and I say, why do you need a new CIO?

[00:17:29] Like what do you need from this role?

[00:17:31] What do you need from the IT organization?

[00:17:33] What's going on?

[00:17:34] And in most cases, I won't say that I'm always walking

[00:17:38] into a hot mess, but often I am.

[00:17:41] And it might be lukewarm.

[00:17:43] It might be any posty.

[00:17:44] Yeah, hopefully it's not.

[00:17:47] But there's always a reason

[00:17:49] that they've hired this role.

[00:17:51] Right, there's something that has to be solved.

[00:17:52] There's some problem.

[00:17:54] And so inevitably, each of my peers will say to me,

[00:17:58] well, here are the problems that we're having.

[00:18:00] Here's the things that we need to change.

[00:18:03] And everybody wants change.

[00:18:05] The thing that they're not recognizing is that all of them,

[00:18:08] all of these peers that I'm interviewing are saying,

[00:18:12] we need change.

[00:18:14] But when they say that what they need is,

[00:18:16] I need you to help me make everybody else change.

[00:18:18] That's right.

[00:18:19] That's right.

[00:18:21] That's right.

[00:18:23] Right, and they're all saying that.

[00:18:25] They're all coming to me saying, hey, help me do that.

[00:18:27] And so when we start talking about these silos

[00:18:29] and the technology, they actually,

[00:18:32] and I remember some of these conversations with my peers,

[00:18:35] they actually would be very conscious of the fact that,

[00:18:38] hey, we're using a different chat solution than they are.

[00:18:41] And their solution to that was just help them use buying.

[00:18:44] That's right.

[00:18:45] That's right.

[00:18:46] That's right.

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:48] That was their solution.

[00:18:49] And it was all of them were saying,

[00:18:51] you just help me get them on my platform.

[00:18:53] And then we're, and we can be partners, right?

[00:18:56] Let's partner and let's go do that.

[00:18:58] And then when I didn't do that,

[00:19:00] when I said, hey, we've invested in a platform

[00:19:03] and that platform comes with certain things.

[00:19:06] And so we all need to move to that.

[00:19:09] Then it was, hey, Ken, you're not partnering

[00:19:12] with your peers, right?

[00:19:15] Because partnering with them would mean

[00:19:17] each one of them gets what they want.

[00:19:21] Which again is another sign of a siloed organization

[00:19:24] that doesn't think competively

[00:19:26] because there's us versus them.

[00:19:27] There is no us versus them in a company.

[00:19:31] You need a common enemy outside of the company.

[00:19:33] And it could be a competitor,

[00:19:35] it could be COVID when that was, you know, whatever it is,

[00:19:38] but your colleagues cannot be your enemy

[00:19:41] in order to be successful.

[00:19:43] Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:44] And that was rampant.

[00:19:46] It really was.

[00:19:46] There was a lot of this kind of finger pointing

[00:19:49] between departments and not just IT and everybody else.

[00:19:52] It was, there were some really deep kind of silos

[00:19:57] here in this organization.

[00:20:00] So it was a challenge.

[00:20:01] Yeah, oh my gosh.

[00:20:02] And completely normal, right?

[00:20:04] Like I mean, this is everyday organizational life.

[00:20:07] It doesn't have to be this way,

[00:20:08] but unfortunately that's what a lot of evolved into.

[00:20:11] Well, things your story reminded me of.

[00:20:13] I was with a fellow learning and development firm

[00:20:17] about a year and a half ago in Cincinnati

[00:20:19] visiting the owner.

[00:20:19] We were just talking about collaboration.

[00:20:21] And in his bathroom, in the office bathroom,

[00:20:24] there was a sign that everybody loves change,

[00:20:27] but no one will change the toilet paper.

[00:20:29] And, you know, which is riff off of more,

[00:20:32] more prophetic, is that the right word?

[00:20:34] Prophetic sayings.

[00:20:36] But I was like, that's so true.

[00:20:38] Everybody wants change,

[00:20:39] but no one wants to change the toilet paper.

[00:20:42] Yeah, that's spot on.

[00:20:44] Spot on.

[00:20:45] Everybody wants change,

[00:20:45] but they all want someone else to change.

[00:20:47] That's right.

[00:20:48] That's what they want.

[00:20:49] They want someone else to change

[00:20:50] to meet what they're expecting.

[00:20:51] Yes.

[00:20:52] Well, we've got a lot of tech leaders listening into this.

[00:20:54] Talk to me about what you learned

[00:20:57] about tech debt in this situation,

[00:20:59] how you defined it.

[00:21:01] You know, walk us through that process

[00:21:03] where you were able to say like, whoa y'all,

[00:21:07] like we got some big numbers adding up

[00:21:10] and this is no longer working.

[00:21:12] Yeah, so like I said,

[00:21:13] one of the first things you have to do

[00:21:14] is quantify that.

[00:21:16] Yeah.

[00:21:16] Right?

[00:21:17] And so one of the things we did,

[00:21:18] I've already talked about,

[00:21:19] we looked across the organization at,

[00:21:22] what is duplicatives?

[00:21:24] What do we have that we're paying for in multiple places?

[00:21:27] Right, so we started to articulate that.

[00:21:29] And no one had calculated that before

[00:21:32] because no one really,

[00:21:36] when they try to estimate that in their head,

[00:21:39] they always underestimate.

[00:21:41] Well, this chat solution is only 50,000.

[00:21:43] That's it.

[00:21:44] No, we've got all these add-ons,

[00:21:46] we've got all these other things,

[00:21:47] all this other stuff that we,

[00:21:48] you know, it's not that.

[00:21:50] And they think back to when they first bought it,

[00:21:51] not what they're paying for now,

[00:21:53] right, with all of the changes that they've made

[00:21:55] and everything.

[00:21:56] So, and all the growth that's occurred, right?

[00:21:58] Additional licenses or whatever.

[00:22:00] So the first thing you have to do is quantify your spend.

[00:22:06] But it was fascinating because I actually found a quote

[00:22:10] from Gartner at the time about TechDent

[00:22:12] because I was starting to figure out,

[00:22:13] well, how am I going to articulate this

[00:22:16] not only to my peers,

[00:22:17] but to the rest of the executive team,

[00:22:19] to the board, right?

[00:22:21] This is a big problem here.

[00:22:22] I have to be able to share this.

[00:22:24] And so I found a quote from Gartner that said

[00:22:27] that companies who don't actively measure

[00:22:30] and manage their TechDent will,

[00:22:34] I'm sorry, companies who do actively manage

[00:22:37] and measure their TechDent will achieve 50%

[00:22:40] greater efficiency.

[00:22:42] 50%.

[00:22:43] 50?

[00:22:44] Yeah.

[00:22:45] I want 50%.

[00:22:47] I want that.

[00:22:48] I want that.

[00:22:50] Let's get that.

[00:22:51] And so I looked into all,

[00:22:53] how do we measure and manage that?

[00:22:56] And every place that I found was measuring

[00:23:00] custom development TechDent.

[00:23:02] So the TechDent of software developers

[00:23:05] as they're developing your custom solution,

[00:23:08] nobody's really looking at it

[00:23:09] from an enterprise perspective.

[00:23:10] And so I actually went out and created my own algorithm

[00:23:14] and I created a solution that measures

[00:23:19] lots of different aspects.

[00:23:21] How many people do we have

[00:23:23] managing this particular technology?

[00:23:26] How much time do they spend managing it?

[00:23:30] How far behind is it from a technological perspective,

[00:23:34] patching perspective, right?

[00:23:35] Versioning, right?

[00:23:36] How far back are we?

[00:23:38] And we had some solutions in this company

[00:23:40] that were years behind multiple major versions behind.

[00:23:46] And so you have to quantify all of that.

[00:23:48] Yes.

[00:23:49] And so I went through my whole organization,

[00:23:51] I went to my guys that were hands on keyboards

[00:23:54] and I said, help me how much time you're spending

[00:23:58] managing this application?

[00:24:00] And the first reaction was,

[00:24:01] oh, that's just part of the job.

[00:24:02] It's just what I do.

[00:24:04] No, no, I need to understand

[00:24:06] how much time you're putting on this particular thing.

[00:24:09] And they were shocked

[00:24:10] because no one had ever asked them that before.

[00:24:13] So we gathered all the information

[00:24:15] and again I kind of created this algorithm

[00:24:18] that allowed me to take all of this data.

[00:24:21] And oh, by the way, the other key part of this is

[00:24:25] you have to have your IT strategy.

[00:24:27] So you have to know if this thing-

[00:24:30] What?

[00:24:30] You have to have an IT strategy then?

[00:24:32] Right, yeah, I know.

[00:24:33] I'm just kidding.

[00:24:34] I'm out on that field here, I know.

[00:24:35] This was radical, radical stuff.

[00:24:39] You're wild.

[00:24:40] I got it.

[00:24:41] Because you have to,

[00:24:42] one of the components of tech debt

[00:24:45] is this particular thing part of your long-term plan.

[00:24:49] Yes.

[00:24:50] Because if it's not,

[00:24:51] then you have to have a plan to get it out of your

[00:24:52] organization.

[00:24:53] Yes.

[00:24:53] Like again, going back to the chat solutions.

[00:24:56] I know that again, there's plenty of other solutions

[00:24:57] but that's the one that we've kind of zeroed in on

[00:24:59] for this conversation.

[00:25:01] If we have four chat solutions,

[00:25:03] which one is your long-term strategic plan?

[00:25:07] Which one are you gonna go with?

[00:25:09] So you have to make that decision.

[00:25:11] And then the others all become tech debt.

[00:25:12] And then because they're tech debt,

[00:25:15] you now have to articulate,

[00:25:16] well, when are we going to get them out of our

[00:25:18] environment?

[00:25:19] When are we going to make this change?

[00:25:22] And so you did that with all of your technologies.

[00:25:25] And so we did that.

[00:25:26] And we had our long-term strategic plan.

[00:25:29] We knew, this is what our tech stack

[00:25:32] is going to look like in the future.

[00:25:34] This is what it looks like today.

[00:25:35] All of these things that are not part of that

[00:25:38] contribute to our tech debt.

[00:25:40] And then I was able to take that

[00:25:42] and boil it down to a single number

[00:25:46] that I went to the board and I said,

[00:25:48] we are X percent leveraged from a tech debt perspective.

[00:25:54] And that really kind of solidified

[00:25:57] this whole conversation.

[00:25:58] Now we had something specific we could talk about.

[00:26:02] And it created a lot of angst because

[00:26:06] a lot of my peers saw their technology

[00:26:09] on this list of we have to get this out of our environment.

[00:26:12] Oh yes.

[00:26:13] Right?

[00:26:14] But it's not part of the plan.

[00:26:17] So let's start planning for, when are we going to do that?

[00:26:20] Yes.

[00:26:21] Well and what those, from a change management perspective,

[00:26:24] what those leaders heard, it's not,

[00:26:27] oh, the tech is not in the plan in the future.

[00:26:29] It's the decision that I made was wrong

[00:26:32] and my ego's at stake.

[00:26:34] And I'm gonna have to give up control

[00:26:37] and autonomy of these decisions.

[00:26:39] And I wanna have autonomy.

[00:26:41] I wanna have control over this for my function.

[00:26:45] And so that, that tussle between the ego

[00:26:49] and maybe some shame depending on the person

[00:26:52] and the loss of control,

[00:26:55] that is recipes for, that is a recipe

[00:26:58] for emotional backlash, staying stuck in the change curve,

[00:27:02] being unwilling to partner with all of their colleagues.

[00:27:07] Let it all get down into the rest of the organization.

[00:27:10] Yeah, that's extremely insightful.

[00:27:14] That's exactly the reaction.

[00:27:18] So can tell us, what were some of those other nuances

[00:27:21] that came along with what you were learning about

[00:27:24] as it relates to the tech debt?

[00:27:26] Yeah, so I said at the beginning

[00:27:27] that there were really two major problems

[00:27:30] with the way they were implementing this.

[00:27:31] So we've talked about the one,

[00:27:33] the second one was really the fact

[00:27:34] that they were approaching this

[00:27:36] from a big bang perspective.

[00:27:38] And that is a recipe for failure

[00:27:42] on any kind of enterprise wide solution.

[00:27:46] And this one again, it's kind of obvious

[00:27:47] but the problem that they had was

[00:27:50] they were building a lot of stuff in Salesforce.

[00:27:53] They had a lot of stuff that they'd actually delivered

[00:27:56] but not into production.

[00:27:57] They delivered it into their dev environment.

[00:28:00] And again, going back to this whole concept

[00:28:02] of change management, every time they would go

[00:28:05] to the leader of the business

[00:28:08] that they're building this for

[00:28:10] and say, hey, look what we've built in Salesforce.

[00:28:12] Their answer would be,

[00:28:14] oh, but it's not as good as what I'm already using.

[00:28:17] And it doesn't do this or this or this.

[00:28:18] So go build that and then come back and talk.

[00:28:22] So they'd build some more

[00:28:23] and then they come back and talk.

[00:28:24] Well, by that time,

[00:28:26] they'd already implemented more stuff

[00:28:29] in the solution they already had in production.

[00:28:31] And so they were never gonna catch up

[00:28:33] and it was never going to be a feature for feature comparison.

[00:28:39] And so they never got anything into production.

[00:28:43] Yes.

[00:28:43] And again, that leads back to this whole data problem

[00:28:46] and this whole silo problem

[00:28:48] and the whole change management problem.

[00:28:49] It's all intertwined.

[00:28:50] Oh, for sure.

[00:28:52] The two things that I hear in that story,

[00:28:54] one is the big bang approach.

[00:28:56] The old school way of deploying things

[00:28:58] was it had to be perfect before you deployed it.

[00:29:01] And that is no longer necessary with software

[00:29:04] and it's really not helpful

[00:29:07] to make the problem much more expensive.

[00:29:09] And when you're trying to take an enterprise level system

[00:29:13] and customize it to match the capabilities

[00:29:16] of very niche services like a Calendly,

[00:29:19] like a Slack, like a DocuSign,

[00:29:24] all those folks have gone extremely deep

[00:29:26] in the capability and one little area

[00:29:30] versus being great enough or good enough

[00:29:33] in key areas across the enterprise.

[00:29:36] You will never be able to keep up with that.

[00:29:39] You're just making your problem even more expensive

[00:29:42] by trying to customize and code Salesforce

[00:29:45] to match Calendly, for example,

[00:29:48] that's a lame example in the IT world,

[00:29:49] but you all know what I mean.

[00:29:50] Like at some point it has to be good enough

[00:29:54] because it's functional and you have cohesive data.

[00:29:58] Yeah, you're spot on.

[00:29:59] And again, this goes right back

[00:30:01] to this whole conversation we've been having

[00:30:03] about these silos and these individuals

[00:30:06] that this is what we use, this is what we have,

[00:30:08] this is what we're used to.

[00:30:09] And the irony here is that

[00:30:13] as they go out and choose their own solution,

[00:30:16] they are perfectly willing to say,

[00:30:19] well, we're gonna implement this slowly.

[00:30:20] We're gonna do this piece first and make sure it works.

[00:30:22] Then we're gonna do this piece, make sure it works

[00:30:24] and we're gonna do this and they build it up over time,

[00:30:26] right with the solution they were implementing.

[00:30:28] But when it came to, hey,

[00:30:30] we're ready to put Salesforce into production,

[00:30:32] it was, oh no, it doesn't do everything yet.

[00:30:36] So with their own solutions,

[00:30:37] they're perfectly willing to take a little bit of,

[00:30:41] you know, give and take and we have to try it out

[00:30:43] and we're gonna tweak as we go.

[00:30:45] Yes.

[00:30:46] But with the enterprise solution,

[00:30:47] they're not ready to take it until it will do everything.

[00:30:50] And it has to be feature for feature,

[00:30:52] which to your point, it's never going to be.

[00:30:56] Yeah.

[00:30:57] Right?

[00:30:57] It's just not.

[00:30:58] And I remember having a conversation

[00:30:59] with one of my peers about that and I said,

[00:31:01] look, when you have a suite versus a best in breed,

[00:31:06] you are never, it's always going to be more expensive

[00:31:10] to do best in breed.

[00:31:11] It's always, you're gonna buy multiple solutions.

[00:31:15] In this suite, you're gonna have a little less functionality,

[00:31:18] maybe it's maybe gonna be a little more clunky,

[00:31:22] but it's going to be integrated.

[00:31:23] The data is gonna be there.

[00:31:25] There are benefits that come with that

[00:31:26] and it's always going to be cheaper.

[00:31:30] Yes.

[00:31:31] To do the enterprise solution than the best in breed.

[00:31:34] And he was shocked.

[00:31:35] He's like, oh, I don't know that that's true.

[00:31:37] Well, okay then.

[00:31:39] No.

[00:31:40] How many staff do you have devoted

[00:31:42] to transferring data that could be automated?

[00:31:45] Yes.

[00:31:46] Oh my gosh.

[00:31:47] I mean, we struggle with that.

[00:31:48] We're a small business.

[00:31:50] We're a micro business in comparison

[00:31:52] to a lot that you've worked in.

[00:31:54] You know, we are light years away

[00:31:56] from ever needing a CIO.

[00:31:58] But we, I mean, we have the same problems

[00:32:00] and during the pandemic,

[00:32:02] so many different platforms exploded their capabilities

[00:32:06] and kind of started fraying the edges

[00:32:08] of what their best in breed is

[00:32:11] as a way to build an ecosystem for that platform.

[00:32:14] And I know that's kind of like the latest tech strategy

[00:32:16] is to build your ecosystem around your platform

[00:32:19] and make everyone else fit into it.

[00:32:22] And last year we tried doing that

[00:32:25] and I invested thousands of dollars

[00:32:26] into customized solutions

[00:32:28] because one thing was going to be our hub

[00:32:30] that at the end of the day couldn't be a hub.

[00:32:33] And so we're switching to an enterprise solution

[00:32:36] made for businesses our size.

[00:32:38] And my staff is saying, oh, well,

[00:32:40] we can pay to customize this

[00:32:42] and pay to customize this.

[00:32:43] And I'm like, no, we will live with the limitations

[00:32:45] of this system because it's not necessary.

[00:32:48] At the end of the day, it's not necessary

[00:32:50] for where we're at right now,

[00:32:52] but they don't see that.

[00:32:52] They see, oh, but I want this capability

[00:32:54] and I want this capability

[00:32:55] and I'm like, nice, okay, we're not gonna do that.

[00:32:58] So it happens at most of all sizes

[00:33:01] and it's so easy to go down the rabbit hole

[00:33:03] before you kind of pull yourself up for air

[00:33:05] and be like, how much should I spend on that?

[00:33:07] We're still not done.

[00:33:09] Yeah, no, that's right.

[00:33:11] And kudos to you for recognizing that

[00:33:14] because you're right, this is just a problem of scale.

[00:33:17] It is.

[00:33:18] This is the problem at every company.

[00:33:21] Everyone faces the same challenge.

[00:33:23] It's only a question of scale.

[00:33:24] Yes, agree completely.

[00:33:26] Let's take a quick commercial break

[00:33:28] and we're gonna talk about why is Ken more awesome

[00:33:32] as a leader?

[00:33:32] What has he been able to do since being able

[00:33:36] to create this equation for tech debt,

[00:33:39] but not only that,

[00:33:41] seeing and learning what he knows now

[00:33:43] based on what he went through then.

[00:33:45] All right, well we take a quick break

[00:33:47] from this amazing conversation today.

[00:33:49] I wanna share with you a new tool that I have for you.

[00:33:53] I think that there's a myth in our workplaces.

[00:33:56] Let me say this, I know there's a myth

[00:33:58] in our workplaces that meetings have to suck

[00:34:00] and I don't believe that whatsoever.

[00:34:02] By all accounts, our time and meetings have doubled

[00:34:05] if not more since the start of the pandemic

[00:34:08] and this time with your colleagues

[00:34:11] should not be a waste of time.

[00:34:12] It should be the most valuable.

[00:34:13] So if you're looking for more resources

[00:34:15] to lead meetings that are productive, powerful, impactful

[00:34:19] and have everyone participating,

[00:34:21] get over to my website at StephanieCravins.com

[00:34:25] forward slash lead kick ass meetings

[00:34:27] and get some new tools so that

[00:34:29] when you leave a meeting with your colleagues,

[00:34:32] you're not left going,

[00:34:33] what the actual F was that?

[00:34:36] You're going, yes we're gonna take on the world together.

[00:34:39] Let's get this done

[00:34:40] because it was an unbelievably powerful meeting.

[00:34:43] Those tools are out there for you my friends

[00:34:45] and they're on my website today,

[00:34:46] StephanieCravins.com forward slash lead kick ass meetings.

[00:34:50] Now let's get back into that conversation.

[00:34:52] So Ken it's been many moons

[00:34:55] since you've been involved in that company

[00:34:57] and evolved your tech debt strategy.

[00:35:01] That's a little harder to say than I realized.

[00:35:04] Strategy, yeah.

[00:35:08] What have you taken with you since that experience?

[00:35:10] Yeah, I think this whole concept

[00:35:13] of being able to actually quantify your tech debt.

[00:35:18] I think most companies understand financial debt

[00:35:23] and they understand that financial debt

[00:35:26] can be both positive and negative.

[00:35:28] Too much financial debt will be a huge burden

[00:35:32] to your company.

[00:35:33] However, you can strategically take on some financial debt

[00:35:38] in order to build your company.

[00:35:40] Yes.

[00:35:41] And so this whole kind of hot mess that I went through,

[00:35:46] really it's kind of helped to solidify this concept

[00:35:49] that tech debt is very, very similar to financial debt

[00:35:54] in the concepts but people don't still

[00:35:58] talk about it that way.

[00:35:59] Usually when executives are talking about tech debt

[00:36:02] it's always a negative thing.

[00:36:04] It's always bad, all tech debt is bad

[00:36:07] and that's not necessarily true.

[00:36:10] There are times when you will strategically

[00:36:13] make a decision to say, you know what?

[00:36:15] This is our long-term plan but in order to get there

[00:36:19] we have to have two chat solutions for a period of time.

[00:36:24] Right, for whatever reason.

[00:36:25] Right.

[00:36:26] And the problem in the past has been

[00:36:30] no one has quantified that, what's the actual cost?

[00:36:35] And no one has ever gone back

[00:36:37] and said we're gonna pay down our tech debt.

[00:36:40] But once those decisions are made

[00:36:41] you just kind of keep moving forward

[00:36:43] and it just grows and grows and grows.

[00:36:46] So what I've learned from this is

[00:36:48] once we can quantify that tech debt

[00:36:51] then we can start having conversations

[00:36:53] with the executive team, with the board

[00:36:56] and we can start talking in terms that

[00:36:58] they already understand when they're

[00:36:59] talking about financial debt.

[00:37:00] So we talk about tech debt leverage,

[00:37:02] we can talk about the fact that

[00:37:03] we are leveraged to this point

[00:37:06] and that's going to be a problem

[00:37:08] so we have to get down to this point

[00:37:10] but we can also start addressing the fact

[00:37:11] that we are never going to be at zero

[00:37:15] from a tech debt perspective.

[00:37:18] Zero shouldn't be the goal

[00:37:19] because for whatever reason, whether it's

[00:37:23] hatching of systems, upgrading of old operating systems

[00:37:28] or as soon as you implement a solution

[00:37:30] there's already some tech debt there

[00:37:31] just like driving a car off the lot.

[00:37:34] As soon as you do that you have some depreciation.

[00:37:36] That's right.

[00:37:37] It's the same thing.

[00:37:38] We are constantly going to have some tech debt leverage.

[00:37:41] So we just have to understand

[00:37:43] what's the right amount of tech debt leverage

[00:37:45] for our company?

[00:37:47] What's our goal?

[00:37:48] So that's what this whole thing

[00:37:49] has kind of allowed me to help articulate

[00:37:51] and start having these conversations

[00:37:53] that have really turned out to be very, very valuable

[00:37:57] because in the past we've never been able

[00:38:00] to talk about it at all.

[00:38:02] Yeah.

[00:38:03] So in my world, we focus on learning and development,

[00:38:06] and the way I see any challenge problem is truly a,

[00:38:12] oh well how can we learn how to solve that

[00:38:13] if we don't know how to today?

[00:38:15] And obviously companies need to upgrade their technology

[00:38:20] based on their time and their IT strategy

[00:38:22] and what they hope to accomplish.

[00:38:24] There is a cost that comes with training people.

[00:38:28] What used to take them three minutes in the old system

[00:38:31] is gonna take them 30 minutes for a while

[00:38:33] so they gain some traction

[00:38:34] and increase their productivity and learn the system.

[00:38:38] Would you include that time in tech debt

[00:38:40] as it relates to the acquisition of a tech asset?

[00:38:45] Oh, for sure.

[00:38:46] Yeah, I think everything that has to do

[00:38:47] with the amount of time that's being put into that solution,

[00:38:52] whether it's on the technology team

[00:38:55] or whether it's on the line of business that's using it.

[00:38:58] How much time and effort is going

[00:39:00] into that piece of technology?

[00:39:04] Yes.

[00:39:04] And all of that contributes to tech debt

[00:39:06] because all of that is time

[00:39:08] that could be used doing something else.

[00:39:12] Agreed completely.

[00:39:14] What are some great examples of the use of tech debt

[00:39:18] from your perspective?

[00:39:19] Yeah, so I think first of all,

[00:39:20] this understanding that tech debt is not always bad.

[00:39:23] Right.

[00:39:24] I think that's the first kind of light bulb

[00:39:26] that whenever I have this conversation with people,

[00:39:30] that's kind of an aha moment.

[00:39:33] I have always thought this was a bad thing

[00:39:35] but as soon as you start talking about it

[00:39:37] in terms of hey, it's just like financial debt leverage,

[00:39:40] that's an aha moment.

[00:39:42] The other one is really the fact that quantifying tech debt

[00:39:47] because several times I've walked into companies

[00:39:49] where they talk about oh, we have so much tech debt.

[00:39:51] So how much do you have?

[00:39:53] Oh, it's a lot.

[00:39:56] Okay, well what does that mean?

[00:39:58] Well and from a business perspective, right?

[00:40:00] How much money are we spending on this tech debt?

[00:40:03] Is it really a problem or not?

[00:40:06] And so being able to quantify it

[00:40:09] I think is a huge benefit as well.

[00:40:13] And because again, that creates conversations now

[00:40:16] where we can have a discussion

[00:40:18] at the executive level to say hey,

[00:40:21] here's why we should have four chat solutions.

[00:40:25] Right, this is the amount of money it's costing us.

[00:40:27] This is the opportunity cost.

[00:40:31] This is what's happening from the backend perspective

[00:40:33] that none of you see when we're all trying

[00:40:35] to move data between all of these solutions

[00:40:38] where with this long-term solution that's our plan

[00:40:41] we wouldn't have to do that, right?

[00:40:42] So now we can have those conversations

[00:40:45] where if we didn't quantify it,

[00:40:47] we would just be saying yeah,

[00:40:49] who cares that we have four?

[00:40:50] It works for each division.

[00:40:51] So it's great.

[00:40:53] Yes, I'm also thinking the flip side of that conversation

[00:40:58] where I have a company I'm thinking of

[00:41:01] and they work with the fairly antiquated database

[00:41:05] there in the public health world

[00:41:06] but it's the most current version

[00:41:09] of a public health database that works for this sector.

[00:41:12] There's nothing like truly, truly innovative

[00:41:14] but there's a lot of customization that you can do to it.

[00:41:16] It's kind of like a sales force of their world

[00:41:19] and one of the leaders direct reports

[00:41:22] requested a dashboard to pull together

[00:41:25] all this information.

[00:41:26] Sounds like a super reasonable request

[00:41:28] so that this person can go in, look at the data

[00:41:31] and summary, have some red flags

[00:41:33] about what needs immediate attention,

[00:41:35] what is on the horizon for one, two, four weeks out,

[00:41:40] look at individual cases, completely reasonable request

[00:41:44] except to build that.

[00:41:45] Yes, except to build that out

[00:41:48] given the limitations of the system that they use

[00:41:50] that's a $4 million endeavor.

[00:41:52] And I may be exaggerating but it's a ton of money.

[00:41:57] Let's say realistically it would take $750,000

[00:42:02] to build out a dashboard.

[00:42:04] When the level of staff at their salary,

[00:42:07] like those folks rightly or wrongly

[00:42:11] won't make $750,000 in the next 10 years.

[00:42:15] That is chosen I guess tech debt or leveraging tech debt

[00:42:19] because the reality is it is much more cost effective

[00:42:22] for that person to manually gather that data

[00:42:26] and kind of create their own dashboards of ways

[00:42:29] on a daily basis versus investing in a dashboard

[00:42:32] in the system.

[00:42:33] Yeah, that's a great example.

[00:42:36] And because these are the challenges

[00:42:40] that it will break for an organization.

[00:42:42] Now in this case, the way you've explained it anyway,

[00:42:45] this particular solution,

[00:42:46] it is the most current that they have available for them.

[00:42:50] It doesn't have the capabilities

[00:42:54] that other solutions would have

[00:42:55] that would make it really easy to build these dashboards

[00:42:58] and do these ETLs and whatever else they would do.

[00:43:02] Yes.

[00:43:03] So that's where they are.

[00:43:05] So that's not necessarily,

[00:43:08] again this is an example of not a bad tech debt.

[00:43:12] Now they just have to make this cost benefit decision

[00:43:14] of well, is it worth it for us to build the dashboard

[00:43:17] given what it costs?

[00:43:18] Yes.

[00:43:19] But they can't upgrade this particular system

[00:43:22] because that's the most current they have.

[00:43:24] So that is what they should be using.

[00:43:27] Yes.

[00:43:28] But I mean-

[00:43:29] They understand the limitations of it.

[00:43:30] Yeah, yeah.

[00:43:31] Reality is of course they can upgrade to something else.

[00:43:34] Reality is of course there's another system

[00:43:37] maybe not exactly customized to their sector

[00:43:39] that could solve some of these problems,

[00:43:42] but those are also much larger cash investments

[00:43:45] that's not a reality either

[00:43:47] or not a choice they can make.

[00:43:49] Yeah, that's right.

[00:43:50] And again this is where this whole concept

[00:43:52] of quantifying your tech

[00:43:54] that allows you to now make these quantitative decisions.

[00:43:59] You can now quantify this and say,

[00:44:01] well this is what it costs.

[00:44:02] This is what this particular thing is costing us.

[00:44:05] It's costing us the inability to create these dashboards.

[00:44:10] So if these dashboards are going to be really important

[00:44:13] for us and we believe there's gonna be efficiencies

[00:44:15] that will come from that,

[00:44:16] well maybe then the solution is

[00:44:18] let's go upgrade this solution to something else

[00:44:21] so that we can have that.

[00:44:23] Of course, of course.

[00:44:25] And what you're inspiring me to think about Ken is

[00:44:29] and this is top of mind because I did a training yesterday

[00:44:32] on alignment and integration inside of an organization

[00:44:35] and so real quick integration is the ability

[00:44:37] to integrate goals from the IT help desk

[00:44:44] support coordinator all the way up to the CIO,

[00:44:47] to the CEO and strategic execution actually requires us

[00:44:52] to have that level of integration

[00:44:53] where all goals make sense

[00:44:55] and line up to organizational goals.

[00:44:57] It's not always literal

[00:44:58] and it's not always completely linear

[00:45:01] but that's integration and then alignment is

[00:45:04] in between the departments.

[00:45:05] So across the organization,

[00:45:07] goals also stack up to make sense

[00:45:09] and lead to organizational achievement.

[00:45:11] So that's alignment.

[00:45:13] And what you're,

[00:45:13] and I said something similar to what you just said is

[00:45:17] let's use this information to have conversations

[00:45:20] and discussions and create agreements about priorities

[00:45:23] across the organization

[00:45:25] and tech debt is one way to have that conversation to say

[00:45:30] cause really what we're getting at

[00:45:32] is misaligned priorities across the organization.

[00:45:35] And the more you have misalignment,

[00:45:38] the higher your debt is gonna be.

[00:45:40] The same is the higher your expenses are gonna be

[00:45:42] in XYZ department because two other departments

[00:45:46] can't decide on what's priority number one first.

[00:45:50] Yeah, excellent point.

[00:45:52] That's right.

[00:45:53] So it creates this visibility across the,

[00:45:56] between these silos, right?

[00:45:57] For lack of a better term

[00:45:59] where now when you start talking about

[00:46:01] tech debt and what it's costing us as an organization,

[00:46:04] now you can look at,

[00:46:06] because before that you'd look at the organization and say,

[00:46:08] well I have what I need.

[00:46:10] They have what they need.

[00:46:11] Who cares?

[00:46:12] Let's, let's keep going.

[00:46:13] Where now you can say,

[00:46:14] hey, this is what it's costing us

[00:46:17] from a bottom line perspective as an organization.

[00:46:20] So now we have this ability into,

[00:46:22] well, okay, this is what this is going to mean then

[00:46:24] for them to change.

[00:46:26] What's it gonna mean for us to change?

[00:46:28] Which one's the better one?

[00:46:29] Which one's the one to take into the future?

[00:46:31] So you create these more meaningful conversations

[00:46:35] because you now have this ability to quantify

[00:46:38] and discuss in real terms

[00:46:40] as opposed to some nebulous thing of,

[00:46:42] hey, it's just tech debt.

[00:46:44] It's just a lot.

[00:46:45] It's just a real big rubber.

[00:46:46] Yeah.

[00:46:47] So for our leaders that are listening in who are,

[00:46:50] and this is my last question

[00:46:51] because I gotta let you get back to solving some tech

[00:46:54] that is here.

[00:46:55] Yeah, hey.

[00:46:57] But for our leaders listening in who are like,

[00:46:59] oh, heck yes, Ken, like yes, I know we have tech debt,

[00:47:02] but the second step is having the conversation.

[00:47:06] What are some of the key questions

[00:47:07] that you think is important for leaders

[00:47:09] to bring to that conversation,

[00:47:11] to get to true partnership, true shared perspective?

[00:47:17] Yeah, well, again,

[00:47:18] I think you have to first of all identify.

[00:47:20] I think there's too much tech

[00:47:22] that is kind of under the covers

[00:47:25] that people don't know about.

[00:47:26] So you have to identify where this exists.

[00:47:30] So asking those questions about,

[00:47:32] what are you using?

[00:47:35] What are you using it for?

[00:47:36] Why are you using it?

[00:47:37] Understanding why duplication exists

[00:47:40] and where the gaps are.

[00:47:41] So those are the question.

[00:47:43] And then I think you have to understand,

[00:47:45] again, going back to this,

[00:47:47] this topic of the visibility between departments,

[00:47:52] between the silos of who is it going to be more painful?

[00:47:59] Who's gonna be more challenged

[00:48:02] to change their technology,

[00:48:04] to change what they're doing,

[00:48:05] to change their solution?

[00:48:07] And that's not always the only answer.

[00:48:10] You have to look at the costs associated with it.

[00:48:12] If this is a $500,000 solution,

[00:48:15] well, will the $20,000 solution work for everyone?

[00:48:19] Because financially that would be much better, right?

[00:48:21] For 80%, yeah, I tell you what,

[00:48:23] one of the things I work with with my client,

[00:48:25] it's a 700 person, about 700% IT organization

[00:48:29] as we talk about 80, 16, four.

[00:48:32] Does this work for 80% of the people?

[00:48:34] Yes.

[00:48:35] Then yes, that's the solution.

[00:48:36] 16% thinks that they're exception.

[00:48:39] They're not really that big of an exception,

[00:48:41] but you gotta talk through some of that

[00:48:42] and reconcile expectations or reconcile their needs.

[00:48:46] And 4% is truly the exception

[00:48:49] that where they might need a specialized solution

[00:48:51] or a customized solution.

[00:48:53] But if you can solve for 80,

[00:48:54] my God, you've solved for it for the company.

[00:48:57] Yeah, I love that.

[00:48:59] Yeah, I borrowed that from them.

[00:49:01] So...

[00:49:02] That's great.

[00:49:02] I love it.

[00:49:03] I'm gonna borrow it.

[00:49:06] So step one is bringing the numbers to the table.

[00:49:09] And you do that by asking why?

[00:49:11] Why is this important?

[00:49:13] Why is this needed?

[00:49:14] Why do we have this?

[00:49:15] Step two, if I heard you correctly,

[00:49:17] is okay, so let's talk about who is this most important for?

[00:49:22] And is this something that really sales opinion

[00:49:25] matters way more than ops opinion, for example,

[00:49:29] because of the nature of the company?

[00:49:31] Yeah, who's impacted more?

[00:49:32] That's what's been...

[00:49:33] Yes, yes, great question.

[00:49:34] Who's impacted more?

[00:49:36] And letting their voice carry more weight

[00:49:38] and sharing with people why?

[00:49:40] And then what would you say,

[00:49:41] just to kind of put this in a process

[00:49:43] for folks is the third step.

[00:49:44] Yeah, so then the last one would be

[00:49:46] what is your enterprise strategy?

[00:49:47] Going back to that nebulous question of,

[00:49:51] what is it?

[00:49:52] Because again, in this particular case,

[00:49:55] we had a chat solution that servicing was happy with,

[00:49:59] but a chat solution that sales was happy with.

[00:50:01] No one was even looking at the enterprise solution,

[00:50:05] chat solution.

[00:50:07] No one was even looking at that.

[00:50:09] And so we happened then answer the question,

[00:50:13] what is our IT strategy?

[00:50:17] And if the IT strategy is to use the platform

[00:50:22] because it's going to fix all these backend problems for us

[00:50:25] and it's gonna make us much more efficient

[00:50:26] from a data perspective,

[00:50:28] then getting rid of both of these solutions

[00:50:32] and merging them both into the platform

[00:50:34] is the right thing.

[00:50:35] Yes.

[00:50:36] That's not always the right thing.

[00:50:37] Sometimes there may be a reason to choose one or the other

[00:50:40] that's not part of your platform.

[00:50:42] So creating that IT strategy

[00:50:44] and getting everyone aligned around that strategy,

[00:50:46] that's kind of the third step in the process.

[00:50:49] Yes.

[00:50:50] And there's an element of when you're in a function like IT

[00:50:54] that if nobody is happy, you've found the right compromise.

[00:50:58] Like sometimes that's my gut suit, right?

[00:51:00] It's just like all y'all don't like it?

[00:51:02] Great, we made the right decision because...

[00:51:05] We finally got there.

[00:51:08] If everybody is equally dissatisfied, then we're good.

[00:51:11] Nailed it.

[00:51:12] That's right.

[00:51:15] And not out of spite at all, but it's merely...

[00:51:17] Someone had to make the decision.

[00:51:19] Someone had to step into the messiness of it

[00:51:22] and say, we're gonna take action and here's the action.

[00:51:25] And any leader that's bold enough to do that

[00:51:27] is doing the right thing.

[00:51:29] Bought on.

[00:51:30] I love it.

[00:51:31] Awesome.

[00:51:31] Oh my gosh, Ken, thank you so much

[00:51:33] for this great conversation.

[00:51:34] You got me all jazzed up

[00:51:36] and I actually have a client I wanna share this with

[00:51:39] cause I think they are going to love this conversation

[00:51:42] as much as I've loved it and take away so much.

[00:51:44] So thank you, thank you, thank you.

[00:51:46] Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:51:47] This is a whole lot of fun.

[00:51:49] Oh my gosh.

[00:51:50] So Ken and I talked about so many things

[00:51:52] but here is the thing, the statement

[00:51:55] that is going to stick with me for a very long time

[00:51:58] and that is tech silos are cultural silos.

[00:52:03] Can I get an amen on that?

[00:52:06] Anytime we have tech that doesn't talk,

[00:52:08] we got people that don't talk.

[00:52:10] And so how do we break down those silos?

[00:52:13] You know, we certainly have our go-to tools.

[00:52:15] I know Ken does as well.

[00:52:17] You know, you've gotta tackle the tech silo

[00:52:19] and the cultural silo with slightly different tools

[00:52:22] but you have to bring them together.

[00:52:24] That's why I believe in our unifying

[00:52:26] change architecture strategy so much

[00:52:29] is that our companies are too splintered

[00:52:32] yet our top level leaders are too accountable

[00:52:35] for delivering shared results.

[00:52:37] And we just don't have our ducks in a row

[00:52:39] in order to do that.

[00:52:40] So I hope that you'll walk away

[00:52:42] from this conversation with the mantra,

[00:52:44] tech silos are cultural silos

[00:52:47] and know that there are resources out there

[00:52:49] to help you solve for that

[00:52:50] so we can bring cohesion to our organizations.

[00:52:53] All right, my friend, first and foremost

[00:52:55] if you got value from this conversation

[00:52:57] I would be unbelievably honored

[00:52:59] if you would share it with someone in your network

[00:53:01] so that we can bring more pro-troublemakers

[00:53:03] to this world, more folks will end up

[00:53:06] knock down those silos

[00:53:07] that are holding our organizations back.

[00:53:10] And now let's get off whatever medium

[00:53:12] we're listening to here and get back

[00:53:14] to focused transformational work

[00:53:16] that delivers impact for you, your team,

[00:53:20] your organization and the world

[00:53:21] and I'll see you soon, my friend.