Is Your Tech Team Accountable for Action or Outcomes with Jason Botts

[00:00:11] Hey there, friend. You're listening to the Hot Mess Hotline and this is Stefanie Krievins.

[00:00:15] You are in the right place if you're an ambitious leader who is charged with delivering on the tech of the future right now.

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[00:00:31] In the past, we would have called this change management and leadership development,

[00:00:35] but I'm calling bunk on that because I think change is now the air that we breathe and your team needs a unified strategy for the 21st century.

[00:00:44] That's what we have for you here, my friend.

[00:00:46] These executive level conversations are nuanced, insightful and hard earned lessons that you can put into practice as soon as this episode is over.

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[00:00:59] Take what's new and useful to you and leave the rest and share it with a friend.

[00:01:04] Today's guest, today's conversation.

[00:01:07] This is a juicy one.

[00:01:08] It's with my new friend Jason Botts.

[00:01:10] He helps realize key performance objectives for businesses large and small by partnering with business leaders and key stakeholders.

[00:01:19] He brings extensive IT operational and strategic experience from so many different industries.

[00:01:26] He is an award-winning executive being recognized by Information Week magazine as an elite 100 innovator.

[00:01:34] He is recognized as a tech leader by some just really great names like Information Week magazine as an elite 100 innovator.

[00:01:42] He's worked with everybody from fast 50 companies to the S&P 500 companies.

[00:01:48] Let's dig into this hot mess.

[00:01:51] Allah a dumpster fire.

[00:01:53] Let's go Jason, tell us about your hot mess.

[00:01:56] Yeah, thanks, Stephanie.

[00:01:58] Well, so I want to set the stage a bit with this with a story I have for you in that it takes place in a very large North American manufacturing company.

[00:02:09] That's about as detailed as we'll get because this was a headline event and headline business.

[00:02:16] So I want to give you a little of that context.

[00:02:20] You know, and it's funny because it starts on the heels of a really large ERP project and so many of those.

[00:02:27] It always goes so smoothly.

[00:02:29] Oh, yes, right.

[00:02:30] And they always get thrown under the bus as the hot mess story.

[00:02:33] They do.

[00:02:34] So I'm not going to throw another log on that fly fire.

[00:02:38] I got plenty of hot mess we can talk about on that project, but it sets the stage for those that are familiar.

[00:02:44] We're about two years, you know, near that complete that's been completed.

[00:02:49] Things look great actually hugely successful to you.

[00:02:53] Maybe it's a little on three on the edge of three years, but it was for the most part on budget on time.

[00:02:59] Granted, it was a 10 years in the making.

[00:03:02] We've not touched the ERP in 10 years.

[00:03:04] Wow.

[00:03:05] So this is a big event.

[00:03:07] Yes.

[00:03:07] 90 days to the day.

[00:03:11] 90 days to the day after going live on this huge update again years in the making.

[00:03:18] We announce the largest acquisition for our organization in our history.

[00:03:23] It was 90 days to the day.

[00:03:25] So, you know, everybody's, you know, obviously well rested and chipper, right?

[00:03:31] Ready ready to take on the world.

[00:03:33] Not hungover at all.

[00:03:34] No hangovers or sweaty brows or any of that over the last, you know, six months, 12 months, whatever.

[00:03:43] All right.

[00:03:43] So we're doing the deal, you know, lots of crazy moments.

[00:03:48] You know, things are getting expedited with trade.

[00:03:51] Things are getting expedited with shareholders.

[00:03:53] Everything's going great.

[00:03:55] You know, this is this is a big deal for, you know, both organizations, etc.

[00:03:59] So all of that comes together, right?

[00:04:02] So I, you know, we're looking at the technologies where, you know, embracing new ways of thinking new lines of business in the organization.

[00:04:11] It's not like we haven't done some of this before, but not at this scale.

[00:04:18] Right.

[00:04:18] So this is this is an X significant expansion in several new lines of business.

[00:04:25] And so, you know, if I like to say if we if we were in the flower industry, these guys are making wedding cakes.

[00:04:32] Right.

[00:04:32] So this this is similar but different.

[00:04:36] Right.

[00:04:36] I mean, it's a whole different ballgame.

[00:04:38] You know, and the whole and the analogy that the parallels now is here are due.

[00:04:43] There's a lot of overlap with with reality.

[00:04:46] So I want to I want to use that as a reference.

[00:04:48] The hot mess starts to take place on an afternoon in we'll just call it a really hot area of the region, which these days with climate who knows this could be anywhere.

[00:05:02] But we're talking, you know, it's getting late in the day.

[00:05:04] I'm on site.

[00:05:06] It's one of those new leader moments.

[00:05:08] Right.

[00:05:08] So we've closed this deal.

[00:05:10] You know, the guys are are in the throes of looking at technology.

[00:05:15] You know, it's a little bit of you know, who's going to win, you know, with the with the technology ideas.

[00:05:21] Where is it?

[00:05:22] Where is it going to go?

[00:05:23] Yeah, you know, we're thinking about what is this?

[00:05:25] We got a lot of people with what's this mean to me mindset?

[00:05:28] What does it mean to me?

[00:05:29] What's this going to look like?

[00:05:32] You know, who moved my cheese?

[00:05:33] Yes.

[00:05:34] Oh, the old with radio.

[00:05:36] WIIFM.

[00:05:38] What's in it for me?

[00:05:39] What's in it for me?

[00:05:40] Most popular on the planet.

[00:05:42] Yeah, right.

[00:05:43] And and it's not just who moved my cheese, but where did the cheese go?

[00:05:48] Yes.

[00:05:48] You know, who left it out in the sun?

[00:05:51] Yeah, you know, and oh, the worst case scenarios.

[00:05:53] Who's got more cheese than me?

[00:05:55] Oh, right.

[00:05:57] So all of this is happening.

[00:06:00] And so this is this is a late in the day.

[00:06:03] It's it's probably a Friday.

[00:06:06] I can't remember what day of the week it was.

[00:06:07] But ironically, it was a slow day of the week, which is important to the story.

[00:06:12] So we've had this I think I think it was a Friday because it was we've had several days

[00:06:16] of meetings as the last day then productive, you know, all the politics going on and

[00:06:22] then the knock on the door.

[00:06:24] You could almost tell in that person's eyes.

[00:06:27] Something wasn't quite right.

[00:06:30] Jason, I'm sorry to interrupt, but we have a situation.

[00:06:35] Okay.

[00:06:37] Obviously, this is priority enough to interrupt, you know, a what has been a pretty

[00:06:44] important conference of both vendors and line of business leaders, etc.

[00:06:51] Sure.

[00:06:52] Tell me what's going on.

[00:06:54] Well, we are down.

[00:06:57] All all of the deliveries, you know, wedding wedding cake story here got to get to

[00:07:02] the church on time.

[00:07:03] Yep.

[00:07:03] We don't know the difference between churches and whiskey bars.

[00:07:08] We got wedding cake trucks pulled into parking lots because nothing's communicating

[00:07:16] anyway.

[00:07:17] Oh, no.

[00:07:19] So again, this is this is an environment we're not familiar with.

[00:07:25] It's it's a line of business as an organization.

[00:07:29] We've been a part of in the past, but we've got obviously a serious situation for

[00:07:37] this company and I was no integrations have happened.

[00:07:41] So this is a little bit of okay.

[00:07:44] How can we help?

[00:07:46] You know, we're here to help but this is you know, a lot on it on a relatively

[00:07:50] small team.

[00:07:50] It's late day and I think my flight was going to be at 9 o'clock or something,

[00:07:55] right?

[00:07:55] So I'm like, I'm not sure this is going to happen.

[00:07:59] I think I need to be here the prior leadership.

[00:08:02] I think at this point they were no longer as a party organization.

[00:08:06] We had there been some changes in the org senior leadership was out but a lot

[00:08:11] of them the director level and certainly a lot of the team was still intact and

[00:08:17] responsible for the environment.

[00:08:18] So this is an all-hands situation.

[00:08:21] We're mustering we're breaking out the war room starting to talk about continuity.

[00:08:27] You know, it plans are important.

[00:08:29] Can I ask you a question real quick like to help us and for those listening

[00:08:35] in, you know, we're intentionally being vague too because it's Jason's

[00:08:38] story to tell but it's not his place to tell the whole story and we

[00:08:42] want to be respectful of everyone involved but help us understand what's

[00:08:47] at stake on this Friday afternoon with trucks pulled over you not knowing

[00:08:54] where they're going like do you have a dollar figure in mind?

[00:08:57] Like do you have product wastage like help us understand like oh,

[00:09:02] yeah, because I'm envisioning like panic inducing right like this

[00:09:05] person's face probably has that like I just saw a ghost kind of look

[00:09:08] to it.

[00:09:09] Like what's at stake in these hours as you're trying to put together

[00:09:13] what's going on?

[00:09:14] Yeah, I can't I can't convey any better the analogy of someone's

[00:09:23] wedding day and not only the cake not showing up maybe even the

[00:09:29] bride or groom right?

[00:09:31] We're talking about catastrophic and we're not talking about wedding

[00:09:37] cakes just melting in the back of the truck.

[00:09:39] We're talking about possibly them burning holes into the bottom and

[00:09:43] right through the asphalt and that truck is no more nor is the highway.

[00:09:47] We got to get this there for what's on board and where it's going.

[00:09:53] This is very important.

[00:09:55] Yeah, this is the very definition of like rolling dumpster fires

[00:09:59] because basically what they say is...

[00:10:00] Right, cue the reel the B-roll for the dumpster fire, right?

[00:10:04] This is the moment.

[00:10:05] So we're immediately in two modes, right?

[00:10:11] Communicating with the deliveries of this to ensure this is happening,

[00:10:16] you know and that we can get manual, you know, we're pulling out

[00:10:20] maps.

[00:10:20] We're getting people where they need to go and we're also saying no

[00:10:25] new orders.

[00:10:26] Nothing's happening for the rest of the day.

[00:10:28] Fortunately, we're getting into that hour where things will be

[00:10:31] slowing down anyway.

[00:10:32] So actually getting that thank goodness moment, you know, if there

[00:10:37] ever was a blessing this would be it that these are

[00:10:40] this is the time of day and we also realize that the next 24 hours

[00:10:47] is probably the best 24 hours if we're going to have to call a

[00:10:51] slowdown with something.

[00:10:53] This is when you'd want it to happen.

[00:10:56] So something was looking down on us with that.

[00:11:00] It wasn't the same that brought us into it and certainly we're

[00:11:04] dealing with a challenge.

[00:11:07] So that's the level.

[00:11:11] So from a dollar figure perspective, yeah, this is not only

[00:11:16] contractual obligations now at risk.

[00:11:19] Yep.

[00:11:19] It's reputation, you know, which is immeasurable.

[00:11:23] We do have equipment that is at risk because of this time

[00:11:29] sensitive delivery.

[00:11:30] So all sorts of things are in play here and our operations

[00:11:35] team that's responsible is immediately, you know, gone manual

[00:11:39] where we're communicating, you know through cell phones, you

[00:11:44] know, we're getting information where we can get it using

[00:11:48] the information that we have to clear the risk as best

[00:11:51] we can.

[00:11:53] So and we're supporting that as best in it from an IT

[00:11:56] perspective.

[00:11:56] There is certainly that immediate let's help ensure business

[00:12:01] operations don't come off the wheels, but also on the periphery

[00:12:06] let's not destroy what we might need to know that caused

[00:12:11] this because the last thing we need to do is restore a

[00:12:15] system onto a piece of hardware, which was actually the

[00:12:18] very top list of concerns and have it fail again.

[00:12:22] There was an immediate theory of hardware failure because

[00:12:26] of this is that sort of proverbial.

[00:12:29] He said that there's this whole history that's now created

[00:12:33] a story about hardware is our always our issue.

[00:12:37] It's not software.

[00:12:38] So, but the theories certainly started coming very quickly.

[00:12:46] I tell the story about the acquisition because cyber is

[00:12:51] obviously an immediate threat.

[00:12:53] The cyber incidents happen very soon after acquisitions

[00:12:56] well aware of that with the work that we do cognizant that

[00:13:00] this could be a a sabotage event cyber sabotage could be

[00:13:08] any type of threat of that nature could be internal.

[00:13:12] Individuals were impacted by this is this is you know,

[00:13:16] all the theory so we began you know capturing all of

[00:13:19] this as the as the pressure of operations started to wane.

[00:13:24] We started to focus on the hot mess that we had and triaging

[00:13:28] those issues.

[00:13:29] So the tea this was a moment where we really begin to see

[00:13:35] you know the Phoenix from ashes right and it's the teamwork

[00:13:39] you the theories were going a bit crazy and the kids also

[00:13:43] some further context.

[00:13:45] I'm not in here troubleshooting.

[00:13:46] I'm really in here to make sure you know, there's not

[00:13:50] this fight, you know, there's not a there's pizza under the

[00:13:53] door.

[00:13:54] You make sure that I'm you know, we've got dinner coming

[00:13:57] in.

[00:13:58] Okay, we're even thinking about shifts because people

[00:14:00] have got to sleep.

[00:14:01] Yeah, but we've got a small knowledge base of what could

[00:14:04] and couldn't be the in play here.

[00:14:08] So you know, I'm pulling out the the the war room

[00:14:15] coordination.

[00:14:16] We've got great talent on multiple coasts, you know now

[00:14:22] thrust together that we've got to solve this you know,

[00:14:26] nothing like also a quick introduction to senior

[00:14:30] leadership in a lot of business that we're now

[00:14:32] supporting.

[00:14:33] So this is you know first impressions.

[00:14:36] This is the lots of dynamics.

[00:14:38] Yeah, this is this is all sorts of things in one big

[00:14:41] stew.

[00:14:42] If it was a stew, what would it be at this point?

[00:14:46] Oh gosh, you know, I think it would be for goulash.

[00:14:50] But you know, I think you know, you know, whatever

[00:14:52] that, you know, that that slop and porridge that

[00:14:55] you know, they slug sling through for prisoners.

[00:14:58] That's about that's how much you'd want to eat it.

[00:15:00] Right?

[00:15:00] Yeah, yeah, it's like subsistence here.

[00:15:03] Yes.

[00:15:04] So I mean because at this point we're I don't know

[00:15:08] 11 midnight.

[00:15:12] Yeah, some of these guys have been going all day

[00:15:14] and they're not going home.

[00:15:15] I mean this is they know this environment.

[00:15:19] They know this technology our teams are online,

[00:15:23] you know remotely that are part of that acquisition

[00:15:27] that don't know but knows some key elements of

[00:15:30] the technology rises.

[00:15:32] It's it's your it's your ballpark, but we know

[00:15:35] how to swing bats.

[00:15:36] You know, we know what the mechanics are here.

[00:15:39] So we're going to try and help with all the

[00:15:40] ways we you know that those technicians are helping

[00:15:43] can ask you a question.

[00:15:44] Of course.

[00:15:45] Did you all have an established process for how

[00:15:49] you tackle dumpster fires and hot messes like

[00:15:51] this at this point in time?

[00:15:54] So again as the acquiring company you bet.

[00:15:59] Okay, you those randos all the time.

[00:16:02] We you know certainly always areas of for

[00:16:05] improvement but well-documented evaluated.

[00:16:07] So we were larger business.

[00:16:09] I mean it was a pretty significant size difference,

[00:16:11] but this was not trivial by any stretch.

[00:16:13] Sure.

[00:16:14] And they had that but not all of the players were

[00:16:17] there.

[00:16:18] Gotcha.

[00:16:19] Not all of them were familiar and yes, they're

[00:16:22] pieces that we're going through are also having

[00:16:24] to buy this is that tough decision of okay.

[00:16:27] Are we rolling back?

[00:16:28] What are we rolling back to where we rolling

[00:16:31] to?

[00:16:32] Yep.

[00:16:32] What does all that look like and but before

[00:16:35] we know how big that issue is let's take a

[00:16:37] moment to sort of dissect what's happened

[00:16:39] because the last thing you want to do is restore

[00:16:42] to two hours ago and in two hours, whatever that

[00:16:44] cyber event was triggers against right.

[00:16:46] So you got all that and real quick Jason what

[00:16:50] that reminds me of is and tell me if I'm off

[00:16:52] base here, but as a leader you are confronted

[00:16:55] with everyone's different without a consistent

[00:16:58] problem solving process.

[00:16:59] You're confronted with everyone's problem

[00:17:02] solving process.

[00:17:03] So the people who are all about action,

[00:17:04] right?

[00:17:05] I'd be like what are we going to do?

[00:17:06] What are we going to do?

[00:17:06] What are we going to do?

[00:17:07] How do we move forward other people are like

[00:17:09] we should sit here and wring our hands for a

[00:17:11] while and just be like, oh my God,

[00:17:13] I can't believe this is happening.

[00:17:15] And then you've got other folks that are

[00:17:17] like well, we knew the version that we had in

[00:17:19] 2012 worked.

[00:17:20] So let's roll it back 10 years.

[00:17:21] I'm making up numbers here, but you know,

[00:17:25] yeah, everyone's got an opinion.

[00:17:26] Everyone's got a speed.

[00:17:27] Everyone's got a style like this speaks to

[00:17:30] the importance of having that kind of process

[00:17:33] so that in the moment when people's egos

[00:17:36] are at play right because I'm sure someone's

[00:17:38] thinking oh God, what did I fuck up?

[00:17:40] Like, oh my God, I probably did something wrong

[00:17:42] or so-and-so did something wrong or you know,

[00:17:45] or that company that we acquired how dare

[00:17:47] they not have this in place.

[00:17:48] You know the accusations just get crazy.

[00:17:52] I already thought I was going to lose my job.

[00:17:53] Am I going to lose?

[00:17:54] So I'm not going to say anything that might

[00:17:56] incriminate me or and the nuance here is

[00:18:01] everyone has their story right that you've

[00:18:03] you've experienced through your life in your

[00:18:04] career or last week, you know, I you know,

[00:18:07] we lost we lost a hard drive last week.

[00:18:10] I wonder if that's what it is.

[00:18:11] Okay, really?

[00:18:12] I mean, what are the odds of that but okay.

[00:18:14] I mean sure that could be a but there's just

[00:18:17] because it happened last week or just because

[00:18:18] it happened to you doesn't mean your story

[00:18:20] is today's story and while you don't want

[00:18:23] to park all of that because you also have

[00:18:25] to weed through what what are our most

[00:18:28] likely scenarios.

[00:18:30] Yes and navigate that you've got two cultures

[00:18:33] trying to navigate that and support each other

[00:18:36] but without stepping on people's egos and

[00:18:38] toes and all that stuff that happens.

[00:18:41] So this was almost a perfect storm of the

[00:18:44] most non conducive environment to have

[00:18:48] this type of event.

[00:18:49] I will say bottom line one of the key

[00:18:51] components was the support we had from

[00:18:53] our operations team.

[00:18:55] These are the guys that are in these

[00:18:57] wedding cake deliveries, right?

[00:18:59] Yeah, this is an own all of that process

[00:19:02] in the relationship with those customers.

[00:19:04] It's it's not unheard of to have an a blip,

[00:19:08] you know, right recently AT&T 60,000

[00:19:11] people without cell phone service.

[00:19:13] What does that do everybody experience

[00:19:15] right?

[00:19:15] So things happen bad things happen.

[00:19:18] But this was a moment where operations

[00:19:21] was very supportive.

[00:19:22] They said, you know what tomorrow is

[00:19:24] not going to be a great day.

[00:19:25] We're going to go ahead and start winding

[00:19:27] you know, pushing off what we can we're

[00:19:29] going to give you by you sometime.

[00:19:32] We're going to work with you.

[00:19:33] We're going to work with you to do this

[00:19:36] and it built an immediate trust and

[00:19:38] relationship because they could see we

[00:19:40] are in this again.

[00:19:43] I'm the new guy in town too.

[00:19:45] I was not leaving town.

[00:19:47] There is no way I'm catching a flight.

[00:19:51] Everybody that was there with me

[00:19:53] stayed we stayed on.

[00:19:55] We did send one person back because

[00:19:57] we were a little bit short-handed on

[00:19:59] the other coast.

[00:20:00] So we're like, okay, you've got designated

[00:20:02] survivor duty.

[00:20:03] You're going back.

[00:20:05] We're staying on on Prem.

[00:20:07] And so we work with these teams.

[00:20:10] It was about 2 3 in the morning.

[00:20:12] We found the root cause the root

[00:20:14] cause was actually none of the

[00:20:17] theories.

[00:20:19] Initially as we began to comb

[00:20:22] through things there started to be

[00:20:24] a theory about an hour prior in

[00:20:27] some ways it was by coincidence.

[00:20:30] It was the the team on the other

[00:20:32] coast that's had let's look at some

[00:20:34] of these items and we did

[00:20:36] determine it was a human error.

[00:20:38] And as you can imagine those

[00:20:41] at some point we have to confront

[00:20:43] that right.

[00:20:44] We have to come back and say,

[00:20:46] okay, let's sit down small team

[00:20:49] small group.

[00:20:51] Let's walk through what happened

[00:20:52] because this is what we're seeing.

[00:20:54] Can you describe the moments leading

[00:20:56] up to what we see in the log file?

[00:20:59] Yeah, and I mean the emotion

[00:21:04] on this one individual was quite

[00:21:06] apparent and unintentional.

[00:21:10] I mean we've we've reviewed this

[00:21:12] now very in some ways forensically

[00:21:16] to ensure but not at that moment

[00:21:18] but we so we had to go on gut

[00:21:19] they became a part of the solution

[00:21:22] of solving and getting things back

[00:21:23] but there's that whole mindset.

[00:21:25] You've got to continue to watch

[00:21:27] and ensure that more damage.

[00:21:29] I mean we're right.

[00:21:30] Trust but verify.

[00:21:32] Yes, atage trust and

[00:21:34] trust and verify.

[00:21:35] That's right.

[00:21:36] Yeah, which is much more effective.

[00:21:37] That's right.

[00:21:38] And as you go all the way

[00:21:40] and they were very open

[00:21:41] and you know, we worked

[00:21:42] through that right three

[00:21:45] four, you know this point

[00:21:48] I am making a phone call

[00:21:49] that we are looking.

[00:21:51] I mean we're communication was a

[00:21:55] invaluable part of this entire process.

[00:21:58] So I'm providing updates

[00:21:59] to our leadership on the West Coast,

[00:22:02] you know, McCall and cell phone numbers.

[00:22:03] I never had to call before

[00:22:05] that you know, this is where we're at

[00:22:08] because not only is this new

[00:22:10] impression of all of us in IT.

[00:22:12] This is how we run our business

[00:22:14] and how we do these things as an entity.

[00:22:18] This is setting an example

[00:22:20] for this their new world.

[00:22:23] Right.

[00:22:24] All around and the support

[00:22:27] from an operations from a leadership,

[00:22:29] you know on both sides of this

[00:22:31] transaction was invaluable,

[00:22:33] but we're providing updates communication,

[00:22:35] communication, communicate,

[00:22:36] you know, right?

[00:22:37] It's the pilot atage right of

[00:22:39] you know, what are the three priorities?

[00:22:40] But you know, communicate,

[00:22:41] communicate, communicate,

[00:22:42] communicate, navigate something,

[00:22:44] but it's all about communicating too.

[00:22:46] So we're we're we're laying this out

[00:22:49] finally making the phone call

[00:22:51] realize it's early.

[00:22:52] Somebody is actually already awake

[00:22:54] waiting for this, you know, communication.

[00:22:56] We do anticipate being online,

[00:22:58] you know by I don't know

[00:23:00] X 6 a.m. or something

[00:23:02] and which is still late,

[00:23:04] but you know, because wedding cakes

[00:23:06] go out very early.

[00:23:07] Yes, but it's it's

[00:23:09] it's light at the end of the tunnel

[00:23:11] that the silver lining to this the hot mess

[00:23:13] is all of the components that we

[00:23:16] saw as a team.

[00:23:19] That can derail progress

[00:23:22] during a crisis, right?

[00:23:24] All these conspiracy theories

[00:23:26] all of this just you know,

[00:23:28] what does it mean to me

[00:23:29] that anxiety is something

[00:23:31] as we begin to build that trust

[00:23:34] we almost were forced to trust,

[00:23:36] right?

[00:23:36] It was that that trust

[00:23:37] as we begin to build that

[00:23:39] these teams were almost instantly tight

[00:23:43] and there could have been

[00:23:45] better team building exercises

[00:23:47] that had less bottom line impact, right?

[00:23:51] But for internally for our teams.

[00:23:53] Yes, you I mean this this

[00:23:56] this instantly brought

[00:23:59] camaraderie and acumen

[00:24:01] and the individual who was responsible

[00:24:03] there was there was

[00:24:04] this was clearly an accident

[00:24:06] and they stayed with the organization

[00:24:08] as long as anyone

[00:24:10] would have and did

[00:24:11] and was successful.

[00:24:13] Certainly we made changes to

[00:24:15] the way things like that

[00:24:16] are done and handled, right?

[00:24:18] They did they they followed their process.

[00:24:20] We had a different process.

[00:24:21] They now have a new process, right?

[00:24:23] But our process that looks

[00:24:25] you know very different maybe

[00:24:26] a bit more testing before

[00:24:29] and a little bit segregation

[00:24:31] of I'm going to do this.

[00:24:32] I don't have permissions

[00:24:33] to do all of that

[00:24:35] protect you from yourself.

[00:24:37] You know, I'm going to twist one key

[00:24:39] and you twist the other

[00:24:40] and then the Rockets go not oops

[00:24:42] was that the wrong switch?

[00:24:44] So all of those controls

[00:24:47] did need maturity

[00:24:48] and they didn't have all those

[00:24:49] again different sizes.

[00:24:50] You know, this is at four six

[00:24:52] and I don't think I've ever slept better

[00:24:54] on a 10 o'clock flight.

[00:24:55] You know, I was probably asleep

[00:24:58] by the time before the wheels

[00:24:59] even left the ground to head home,

[00:25:01] but it was less than 24 hours.

[00:25:04] You know the those weddings

[00:25:06] that were delayed were only delayed by a day.

[00:25:09] The things got back on the rails

[00:25:12] and

[00:25:14] yeah, we were we were better

[00:25:15] for the experience.

[00:25:17] Oh my gosh, and I

[00:25:19] I want to take a quick commercial break.

[00:25:21] I want to wrap up this part of the conversation

[00:25:23] though with something you said

[00:25:25] where you said the teams had no other choice

[00:25:28] but to trust each other

[00:25:29] and unfortunately I've seen

[00:25:32] teams where they they did take

[00:25:34] the other choices

[00:25:35] and it doesn't go well

[00:25:37] but in just to call that out

[00:25:38] and honor this team to choose

[00:25:40] trust in the moment

[00:25:42] is extremely powerful.

[00:25:44] It's

[00:25:45] it's probably one of the highest order things

[00:25:47] that we can do in crisis

[00:25:49] is to trust those around us

[00:25:50] and build that psychological safety

[00:25:52] of we're in it together

[00:25:54] because

[00:25:55] that that's the glue.

[00:25:56] That's the glue that makes it work

[00:25:58] versus continuing to go down

[00:26:01] the rabbit hole of accusations

[00:26:02] at each other, right?

[00:26:04] Like there's accusations of

[00:26:05] other bigger picture things,

[00:26:07] but they stepped out of accusing each other

[00:26:10] and into trusting each other

[00:26:11] unbelievably powerful.

[00:26:12] I'm glad you called that out.

[00:26:13] Let's talk about that after

[00:26:15] because I think there's something to say on that.

[00:26:16] Okay.

[00:26:17] All right.

[00:26:17] We'll be right back.

[00:26:18] All right.

[00:26:18] Well, we take a quick break

[00:26:19] from this amazing conversation today.

[00:26:22] I want to share with you

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[00:27:23] Now let's get back into that conversation.

[00:27:25] Okay, Jason, let's come back

[00:27:27] and let's talk about,

[00:27:28] you know,

[00:27:29] the after effects

[00:27:30] the afterburn if you will

[00:27:32] of this dumpster fire

[00:27:34] and we left off talking about trust.

[00:27:36] What do you know now about trust

[00:27:39] because of that situation?

[00:27:41] So you talked about

[00:27:43] the team and that,

[00:27:45] you know,

[00:27:45] that the team is there

[00:27:47] and teams can go many different directions.

[00:27:49] The accusatory,

[00:27:50] the blame game,

[00:27:52] you know,

[00:27:52] the let me show you,

[00:27:54] you know what I know

[00:27:55] and all of this stuff that can happen.

[00:27:58] Now the irony here

[00:28:00] is the ERP story

[00:28:02] I started with

[00:28:03] in our hot mess.

[00:28:06] As a part of that,

[00:28:07] we knew this was

[00:28:09] that that event was going to be a huge transformation

[00:28:12] for the for our team

[00:28:14] and we invested in

[00:28:16] to even call it a leadership exercise

[00:28:18] would not do its service.

[00:28:20] It was really a transformational program

[00:28:23] that we introduced it

[00:28:25] as you're building

[00:28:26] in a high-performing team

[00:28:28] and in fairness,

[00:28:28] that I think the team

[00:28:30] would tell you

[00:28:31] well,

[00:28:31] why would we need that?

[00:28:32] We already are

[00:28:33] a high-performing team.

[00:28:34] Yeah.

[00:28:35] And and what we tried to communicate

[00:28:37] is that by

[00:28:39] moving in the

[00:28:41] the

[00:28:43] would be a metamorphosis.

[00:28:44] We would not even recognize ourselves

[00:28:47] from where we were

[00:28:49] the moment we said

[00:28:51] why would we need that?

[00:28:53] Yeah.

[00:28:54] And and the testament to that was

[00:28:56] just as we were

[00:28:58] doing some celebratory events

[00:29:00] with the ERP upgrade

[00:29:01] well before this event

[00:29:03] and this acquisition.

[00:29:05] I had a colleague share with me

[00:29:07] that they had called in for an incident.

[00:29:10] There been an issue

[00:29:11] called into the department

[00:29:13] and said

[00:29:14] they thought they'd reached the wrong number.

[00:29:17] They didn't recognize

[00:29:19] the level of service respect

[00:29:22] and partnership

[00:29:23] that they were receiving

[00:29:26] to support them

[00:29:27] in what they were trying to solve

[00:29:28] and it came

[00:29:29] hot damn

[00:29:30] yes, I mean ding ding ding,

[00:29:32] you know,

[00:29:32] that's exactly what

[00:29:34] and I and I relayed that story back

[00:29:36] I think I say

[00:29:37] it's all about the work

[00:29:39] in the commitment

[00:29:41] to

[00:29:42] truly

[00:29:44] transform to what would be a high-performing team

[00:29:46] and in living beyond oneself,

[00:29:48] you know,

[00:29:49] be the the greater effort

[00:29:51] and it's so

[00:29:52] inspiring.

[00:29:53] It's

[00:29:54] it builds even bigger better things

[00:29:56] as you live

[00:29:57] and work that way

[00:29:59] and it was

[00:30:00] a part of that

[00:30:02] that I would say

[00:30:04] help those teams work

[00:30:06] more closely together

[00:30:07] because there wasn't

[00:30:08] there was

[00:30:09] their experience

[00:30:11] almost in a way of mentoring

[00:30:13] teamwork

[00:30:15] versus a culture that was

[00:30:17] not

[00:30:18] as versed right is they

[00:30:20] they hadn't invested the last two years

[00:30:22] in this and we

[00:30:23] we spent a ton of time

[00:30:26] because it took a lot of effort

[00:30:27] and so that was a key component

[00:30:29] of the teamwork

[00:30:30] and again,

[00:30:31] I give all the credit

[00:30:32] to the guys that

[00:30:34] you know work through this

[00:30:35] and saw,

[00:30:36] you know saw their way through

[00:30:38] what was very stressful,

[00:30:40] you know high pressure

[00:30:42] high scrutiny.

[00:30:44] I mean we're talking

[00:30:45] you know potential SEC

[00:30:47] reporting,

[00:30:47] you know events that are

[00:30:49] material

[00:30:50] that you know what's going on here

[00:30:52] could could have amounted to that,

[00:30:54] you know not to that scale

[00:30:56] because of

[00:30:57] quick action

[00:30:58] and

[00:30:59] again back to teams going the direction

[00:31:01] to work together.

[00:31:02] Yes.

[00:31:03] Well and

[00:31:04] what you're what you're bringing up for me

[00:31:06] is we have the same experience

[00:31:07] we come in and work with teams

[00:31:09] and the individuals on the team are thinking

[00:31:11] but I know how to be a team player.

[00:31:13] Why do I need this

[00:31:15] or why do we need this

[00:31:16] or because they don't understand

[00:31:18] high-performing team

[00:31:20] and

[00:31:21] as individuals

[00:31:23] and as a group

[00:31:24] they don't understand

[00:31:25] that everyone is probably currently working

[00:31:28] from a different definition

[00:31:29] of what it means to be a team player.

[00:31:31] No one's working from the same shared

[00:31:33] definition

[00:31:34] that you can morph into high performance,

[00:31:37] right?

[00:31:37] And which sounds odd because we're all like

[00:31:39] well, but I'm human

[00:31:40] and I know how to work with other humans

[00:31:41] and like actually you probably don't

[00:31:43] like we're all pretty terrible.

[00:31:45] Yeah, we are.

[00:31:46] I mean and what we we

[00:31:47] we spent time on exactly that theory of

[00:31:50] you know what makes up a fact

[00:31:52] what are facts?

[00:31:53] I mean you can tell me all day long

[00:31:55] that this is a green shirt

[00:31:57] and but to someone who

[00:31:58] sees colors differently

[00:32:00] how is this a green shirt to you?

[00:32:03] Right? And by the way, I think it's blue.

[00:32:04] It's not green, but it's

[00:32:06] it's that whole what is a fact

[00:32:09] and just because

[00:32:11] you think that this is exactly

[00:32:13] the truth or facts

[00:32:15] someone may see it differently

[00:32:17] and when you can accept that

[00:32:19] and work with that

[00:32:21] then you're like, okay, I get it.

[00:32:22] You know we we can see things differently

[00:32:24] and come to some agreement

[00:32:26] on

[00:32:27] you know

[00:32:28] and work in that process

[00:32:30] is just is what makes

[00:32:33] you know high-performing teams.

[00:32:35] Absolutely.

[00:32:35] Outcomes, you know the outcomes of that

[00:32:38] is really incredible

[00:32:40] and amazing things.

[00:32:41] That's when amazing things happen.

[00:32:42] Yes.

[00:32:43] Yes, and it's

[00:32:44] the other thing that strikes me about

[00:32:46] both that ERP story

[00:32:48] as well as our dumpster fire

[00:32:49] that we're talking about

[00:32:50] is the power of shared results.

[00:32:53] So many folks think that their team

[00:32:55] it happens to be the group of people

[00:32:57] that all report to the same manager

[00:33:00] and there's nothing that actually

[00:33:01] unifies their work

[00:33:02] besides all having the same manager.

[00:33:04] But when you all have shared results

[00:33:07] that you're accountable for

[00:33:09] again, that's glue

[00:33:10] that's gel that brings you together.

[00:33:13] You know some people use the language

[00:33:14] of common enemy.

[00:33:15] I like that too.

[00:33:16] You know if it's especially if it's a wartime situation

[00:33:20] I like that language.

[00:33:20] That's why covid was so inspiring

[00:33:23] for a lot of teams

[00:33:24] because there was a clear common enemy

[00:33:26] at AT&T

[00:33:27] there was a clear common enemy.

[00:33:28] I'm sure that brought together

[00:33:30] their high performers to figure it out

[00:33:32] that like as humans

[00:33:34] that's what we need

[00:33:34] because we're so tribal in nature.

[00:33:36] We need something to rally around together

[00:33:39] outside of ourselves

[00:33:41] shared results in our businesses

[00:33:43] is one of those

[00:33:44] and hopefully the shared results are inspiring

[00:33:46] shared problems, whatever it is

[00:33:48] we need to use that as glue

[00:33:51] because just having the same manager

[00:33:53] isn't is not it.

[00:33:54] It's just not yet.

[00:33:55] No right in

[00:33:57] I think they're different

[00:33:58] perspectives like purpose-driven

[00:34:00] right the purpose, right?

[00:34:01] There's a lot of you know leadership

[00:34:03] and and here's around purpose-driven elements

[00:34:06] and in the core of what we have also been a part

[00:34:10] of the the performance training

[00:34:12] and the the leadership development

[00:34:14] that we that we have been through is

[00:34:16] finding relatedness.

[00:34:18] You know you once you have a foundation

[00:34:20] of relatedness

[00:34:22] and these guys at you know 2 in the morning

[00:34:24] had a common purpose

[00:34:27] and they had a relatedness around

[00:34:29] technical experience

[00:34:30] and their industry experience

[00:34:32] and all of these pieces

[00:34:34] they could begin to work up to

[00:34:36] where extraordinary outcomes happen,

[00:34:39] you know right as

[00:34:40] you collaborate

[00:34:42] and find these out.

[00:34:44] It's just it is

[00:34:46] it is right that the commonalities

[00:34:48] have to start to

[00:34:50] you know, it's like

[00:34:51] the atomic charge you start to bond

[00:34:53] at different points, right?

[00:34:55] And you in some

[00:34:57] something more incredible happens

[00:34:59] than just those individual

[00:35:00] new bits.

[00:35:01] Yes.

[00:35:02] So two more things that I want to bring up

[00:35:05] for our conversation.

[00:35:06] I'll let you get back to changing your part of the world.

[00:35:08] But one of the things that you hit on in the situation

[00:35:12] was this issue of maturity

[00:35:13] and organizational maturity

[00:35:15] and one of the things that we run into

[00:35:18] in our work is quite often times

[00:35:20] we think large organizations are more mature

[00:35:22] and their operations sometimes they are sometimes

[00:35:25] they're not

[00:35:26] but especially folks coming into a new culture

[00:35:29] maybe from a more mature organization

[00:35:31] into something less mature

[00:35:33] by way of standards

[00:35:35] and policies and procedures

[00:35:37] and resources, right?

[00:35:39] There's almost

[00:35:40] there can be a judgment of like

[00:35:42] well, how come they don't have these things in place

[00:35:44] and how come this person doesn't know this

[00:35:46] and how come you know,

[00:35:47] this function isn't stood up accurately

[00:35:50] and

[00:35:52] it comes down to structural issues

[00:35:54] with the company versus individual

[00:35:58] job responsibilities.

[00:35:59] Yeah, it's

[00:36:00] yeah for sure

[00:36:01] and it's a culture around prioritization

[00:36:04] and priorities

[00:36:05] often that is influenced

[00:36:08] by leadership in the culture that they create of

[00:36:13] if there's

[00:36:14] are you accountable for actions?

[00:36:16] Are you accountable for outcomes?

[00:36:19] Right?

[00:36:19] Yes.

[00:36:21] And outcomes

[00:36:23] are really what

[00:36:25] I mean, I feel like it's obvious

[00:36:27] but

[00:36:28] and Kaleesh, but it is outcomes, right?

[00:36:30] It's

[00:36:31] and not just outcome of revenue

[00:36:34] it is

[00:36:36] impactful

[00:36:37] it's innovation

[00:36:38] it's

[00:36:39] it is

[00:36:40] change the world type moments

[00:36:43] and doing things beyond just your

[00:36:46] your

[00:36:47] next task, right?

[00:36:48] It's in

[00:36:49] and it's creating that culture that

[00:36:51] you want to keep five nines

[00:36:54] of reliability.

[00:36:56] Why I mean

[00:36:57] why not

[00:36:58] six seven?

[00:36:59] We can do that.

[00:36:59] How do you continue to improve

[00:37:01] because you're driven by that

[00:37:03] not because you're held

[00:37:05] you know

[00:37:06] over the fire

[00:37:07] and we're trying to be compliant.

[00:37:09] Yeah, yeah, come right.

[00:37:11] Yeah, we used to you know compliance

[00:37:13] audits versus quality audits.

[00:37:16] Right?

[00:37:16] Come on.

[00:37:17] I mean we who wants

[00:37:18] I mean compliance audits just making sure you've

[00:37:20] you've

[00:37:21] you've passed this

[00:37:23] low bar.

[00:37:24] How do we move the bar?

[00:37:25] How do we define it?

[00:37:26] You know, why not?

[00:37:27] Why not drive even beyond

[00:37:29] and demonstrate that and capture value from it?

[00:37:32] Yep.

[00:37:32] Right don't go

[00:37:34] beyond and wastefully

[00:37:36] but capture that value.

[00:37:37] There's value

[00:37:38] and recognize that.

[00:37:40] Oh,

[00:37:41] you're speaking my love language Jason like

[00:37:44] one of the things

[00:37:46] and I think it's on our website.

[00:37:47] It still is is you deserve to keep your high

[00:37:50] expectations like

[00:37:52] if you are ambitious

[00:37:53] if you are here to change the world

[00:37:54] if you are here to produce something quality

[00:37:57] lasting memorable.

[00:37:58] I don't care what industry it is.

[00:38:00] Keep your high expectations

[00:38:02] set your own bar like

[00:38:04] the benchmark is just

[00:38:06] the benchmark like

[00:38:08] let's oh, yeah,

[00:38:08] let's let's make a new one.

[00:38:10] We define the benchmark,

[00:38:12] you know,

[00:38:13] this conversation was our competitors.

[00:38:15] No, no, no.

[00:38:16] They're watching us.

[00:38:17] Yes, we're defining this.

[00:38:18] Yep.

[00:38:18] Let's go make amazing things happen.

[00:38:21] We're going to go make amazing things happen

[00:38:23] and just go.

[00:38:25] And they're going to watch us.

[00:38:26] They're going to try to figure that stuff out

[00:38:28] and that's when

[00:38:30] you know high-performing teams

[00:38:32] excel because they see that

[00:38:34] they recognize that

[00:38:35] they it is

[00:38:37] it is an efficiency

[00:38:39] and a energy

[00:38:41] that

[00:38:42] fuels itself

[00:38:43] and yes,

[00:38:45] there will be issues

[00:38:46] and mistakes

[00:38:47] and that's great

[00:38:49] because it means you're

[00:38:50] you are pushing limits

[00:38:52] and testing new things

[00:38:53] and yeah, there's lots

[00:38:55] lots to be said around that.

[00:38:57] Maybe a another story

[00:38:58] for another day.

[00:38:59] I was going to say that's Jason

[00:39:00] and Stephanie 2.0 episode

[00:39:02] is what that is.

[00:39:03] Yeah.

[00:39:04] All right last question.

[00:39:05] I'll let you

[00:39:06] get on with your day

[00:39:07] and appreciate you sharing your time

[00:39:10] as a leader of this team

[00:39:12] forced to come together under

[00:39:14] really just

[00:39:15] really junky circumstances.

[00:39:19] What new skills did you learn

[00:39:21] during this process

[00:39:22] and in the aftermath?

[00:39:23] You know, it's

[00:39:25] it's not

[00:39:27] I say it's a new skill.

[00:39:28] It's a skill we always have to practice

[00:39:31] and it was listening

[00:39:33] and right.

[00:39:33] So it's not a new skill.

[00:39:36] It's not a well developed

[00:39:37] right.

[00:39:37] It's not a well developed skill

[00:39:39] all the time.

[00:39:39] Yeah.

[00:39:40] Yeah.

[00:39:40] Yeah.

[00:39:41] Especially when there's a

[00:39:42] dumpster fire that you know,

[00:39:43] you want to have the answers

[00:39:45] in some ways it helps

[00:39:47] to not be

[00:39:49] as deep into the technology

[00:39:50] to even have the answers

[00:39:52] because as a technologist,

[00:39:54] I mean, yeah, I can

[00:39:56] get in the weeds on some things

[00:39:57] but in this particular situation

[00:40:00] I was helped by not having that

[00:40:02] new enough to be dangerous

[00:40:05] but also empathize

[00:40:07] and connect with

[00:40:08] and challenge.

[00:40:10] Wait,

[00:40:11] what you said was blah, blah, blah

[00:40:13] but I'm not sure

[00:40:15] help me understand

[00:40:16] right and then listen

[00:40:18] and by listening

[00:40:19] I learned a lot about the dynamics

[00:40:21] of the team that was new to me.

[00:40:23] Again, I'm one of maybe two people

[00:40:27] parachuted into this

[00:40:30] you know,

[00:40:31] battle with technology

[00:40:32] with a phone

[00:40:35] line to a remote team

[00:40:37] that also doesn't know much

[00:40:39] about the technologies,

[00:40:40] right? So we're

[00:40:42] observing

[00:40:43] and trying to support

[00:40:44] this event.

[00:40:46] So the listening

[00:40:48] was so critical

[00:40:50] in this.

[00:40:51] That makes sense.

[00:40:53] Man, well, thank you for sharing

[00:40:55] this story with us

[00:40:56] and your time

[00:40:56] and your wisdom

[00:40:57] and all of those good things.

[00:40:58] Appreciate just getting to know

[00:41:00] you through this process too.

[00:41:01] Well, thank you

[00:41:02] and for those listening

[00:41:04] I do feel like there's been a lot

[00:41:05] of talking so

[00:41:06] but I appreciate

[00:41:07] the opportunity to share the story

[00:41:08] Stephanie

[00:41:10] and to take a few minutes

[00:41:12] with those that are listening.

[00:41:14] Thank you.

[00:41:16] All right.

[00:41:16] Let's close out this episode

[00:41:19] with

[00:41:20] first and foremost

[00:41:21] just the mic drop

[00:41:22] quote of the day.

[00:41:24] Are you accountable for actions

[00:41:25] or are you accountable

[00:41:26] for outcomes?

[00:41:28] I have been talking so much lately

[00:41:30] about efficacy,

[00:41:32] not efficiency,

[00:41:33] not effectiveness.

[00:41:35] In the past we've said,

[00:41:36] you know,

[00:41:37] we have to be efficient

[00:41:38] and we have to be effective.

[00:41:39] Efficient is about doing things

[00:41:41] as cheaply as possible.

[00:41:42] Effective is about doing

[00:41:44] the right things.

[00:41:45] Efficacy

[00:41:46] is about getting the right

[00:41:48] outcomes.

[00:41:49] No longer can we say

[00:41:50] we did the right thing.

[00:41:52] We need to say we produced

[00:41:53] the best result

[00:41:55] given the resources

[00:41:56] and the information

[00:41:57] that we had.

[00:41:58] Also,

[00:41:59] I want to invite you to think about

[00:42:01] based on what we heard

[00:42:02] from Jason's example.

[00:42:04] Do you have a high-performing team?

[00:42:06] First and foremost,

[00:42:07] do you have a team

[00:42:08] that reports to you?

[00:42:09] What are their shared results?

[00:42:10] What unifies them together?

[00:42:12] Second level is

[00:42:14] and this is ninja level stuff,

[00:42:15] but

[00:42:16] do you have a high-performing

[00:42:18] team?

[00:42:19] Do you have an organization

[00:42:20] that has high levels of trust,

[00:42:23] produces really great results,

[00:42:25] has accountability

[00:42:26] towards each other,

[00:42:27] can wrestle with conflict

[00:42:29] and be committed together?

[00:42:31] Not just when the going gets tough,

[00:42:33] but on an everyday basis

[00:42:34] to guide towards those outcomes

[00:42:36] that they must achieve.

[00:42:38] All right, my friend,

[00:42:39] if you got value from this episode,

[00:42:40] would you please share it

[00:42:42] with another pro troublemaker

[00:42:43] in your

[00:42:44] neck of the woods?

[00:42:45] And now,

[00:42:46] let's get back to the impactful work

[00:42:48] that truly makes a difference

[00:42:50] for our organizations

[00:42:51] and I'll see you soon.