IT Leadership Growth Mindset with Michael Pompey

[00:00:10] Hey there, my friend. You're listening to the Hot Mess Hotline and this is Stefanie Krievins.

[00:00:15] You are totally in the right place if you're an ambitious leader who's charged with delivering on the tech of the future right now.

[00:00:22] In order to do that, you and your team need to upskill in the process and tackle old problems with new ways of thinking.

[00:00:30] In the past, we would have called this change management and leadership development,

[00:00:34] but change is now the air that we breathe and your team needs a unified strategy for the 21st century.

[00:00:40] These executive level conversations are nuanced, insightful, and hard-earned lessons that you can put into practice as soon as this episode is over.

[00:00:50] Remember, small tweaks can have huge impact, so take what's new and useful to you and leave the rest.

[00:00:57] And I'd be oh so grateful if you get value from this episode that you forward it on to a friend that you think needs to hear this message.

[00:01:04] My guest today is the one and only Michael Pompey.

[00:01:08] He is a technology executive with nearly two decades of experience driving innovation and transformation.

[00:01:15] His role in technology actually started when he was a probation officer,

[00:01:20] and now he is the chief information and transformation officer for the Girl Scouts of Eastern Pennsylvania,

[00:01:26] one of the United States' top 10 largest Girl Scouts councils.

[00:01:30] Not only that, he has numerous certifications from Microsoft, TBM, ITIL, so many more,

[00:01:37] and is a contributor and thought leader or an advisory board member for Philadelphia Society of Information Management,

[00:01:45] the CIO Forum Executive Council, and the Black Data Processing Associates.

[00:01:50] Not only that, he's contributed his insights to so many wonderful publications like CIO Magazine and the Business Intelligence Journal.

[00:01:58] Let's dig into this conversation where Michael talks about a painful time in his career

[00:02:03] that my hunch is that you've wrestled with as well at some point or are wrestling with now,

[00:02:09] and I want to help you get over it.

[00:02:11] Let's go.

[00:02:11] All right, Michael, tell me about your hot mess.

[00:02:14] Yes.

[00:02:14] So my hot mess is interesting.

[00:02:17] Just to give you some context regarding my hot mess and the organization that I was working with,

[00:02:22] I had the privilege, the honor, if you will, to join an organization at its very beginning,

[00:02:28] its most humblest origins, and the folks that were working there, we were tight.

[00:02:33] A lot of places like to say they're a family.

[00:02:35] We legit were like a family, right?

[00:02:38] We were all getting married at the same time, having kids at the same time, buying houses at the same time.

[00:02:42] I like to think of us as, if you remember the movie The Breakfast Club during the 80s, right?

[00:02:48] That tight-knit group at the end, imagine if they started a nonprofit,

[00:02:52] and this nonprofit's whole job was to get corporate folks to give money,

[00:02:59] to align interests, to help kids actually enter the workforce prepared.

[00:03:03] That was our mission and goal.

[00:03:06] So I had the opportunity to be with that group.

[00:03:09] And for me, we were successful beyond anybody's dreams.

[00:03:13] Folks knew us when we walked into the room.

[00:03:15] People could tell that you worked for this organization just by the way you engaged,

[00:03:19] how you're creative, how there was no challenge that was too big for us to overaccomplish.

[00:03:24] And we did it.

[00:03:25] We did the things, right?

[00:03:27] I have like goosebumps.

[00:03:28] I can feel your energy through the camera.

[00:03:31] I have the goosebumps.

[00:03:32] That was the organization that I helped to build and was able to work with

[00:03:37] and was able to give so many years of my life, right?

[00:03:40] So there's the context.

[00:03:41] Okay.

[00:03:42] The hot mess is when I realized that this organization that I loved so much

[00:03:49] and gave so much to was either going to kill me or I was going to kill it if I did not leave.

[00:04:02] Oh, that like hurts my stomach, my soul just to hear.

[00:04:06] It hurts to even say that out loud.

[00:04:09] That was the truth.

[00:04:10] And it was one of the truths that I didn't share with anybody at my time.

[00:04:14] My partners on the executive team, my team leads individually.

[00:04:18] You know, I knew that staying at this place because of the changes that were happening

[00:04:24] were either going to kill me or I was going to kill it.

[00:04:27] And it was one of those times where it's like, you know what?

[00:04:30] I have let myself become a big fish in a pond that was slowly drying up

[00:04:37] before realizing I didn't have the move to turn around anymore.

[00:04:42] And that if I didn't flip myself up into a larger body of water,

[00:04:46] something or someone was going to come by and say, wow, look at this and just

[00:04:52] pick me up and take me off with them.

[00:04:54] So that was the hot mess I found myself in.

[00:04:59] And so part of the reason I wanted to cover this topic is because I've been there myself

[00:05:06] and very ungracefully recognized it.

[00:05:10] And I think a lot of leaders find themselves in these shoes.

[00:05:13] And so I was like, we have to talk about this because this happens in our careers and it's

[00:05:18] painful.

[00:05:19] And there are things you don't realize until you've already gotten yourself out.

[00:05:25] And the metaphor that we're working with here, I just, I'm envisioning you literally running

[00:05:30] out of water to breathe in.

[00:05:32] Like it feels, it feels suffocating.

[00:05:34] And I want to start here with these questions from your perspective.

[00:05:38] What did it feel like to be Michael who was outgrowing his place?

[00:05:44] I mean, we're, we're talking the death of your soul here.

[00:05:47] Like what did it feel like in those moments?

[00:05:50] What were you saying to yourself?

[00:05:52] What were you hearing inside of your head that were indications that something was no

[00:05:57] longer right for you?

[00:05:59] Right.

[00:06:00] Well, what's interesting is that a lot of times, you know, and I see this sometimes with

[00:06:04] technology leaders, you're so used to fixing a problem.

[00:06:07] You're so used to coming in with the hail Mary solution, whether it's technology and

[00:06:12] innovation, a new process.

[00:06:13] And you're so good at it that you tend to think that when you run into something, you

[00:06:18] can sort of superhero your way out of it.

[00:06:21] Yes.

[00:06:22] In fact, one of my close friends, you know, my, my, my, my, so my nickname at the office

[00:06:27] was black Superman.

[00:06:28] And I actually have a cape at the back of my chair and a collection of the comic books

[00:06:34] and the black Kryptonians and even action figures.

[00:06:37] And she would often say that Mike, that superhero high that you have is a dangerous high.

[00:06:42] You can be addicted to being a superhero.

[00:06:44] So when I found myself asking these questions and seeing things change around me and just

[00:06:50] all those little sizes saying, you know what, Mike, something is wrong here.

[00:06:54] I felt that I could superhero my way out of it.

[00:06:56] Well, maybe I just need to do more or learn more or do something else.

[00:07:00] Yes.

[00:07:00] And that it wasn't me recognizing the environment around me.

[00:07:04] It was me internalizing it.

[00:07:05] And part of this is ego.

[00:07:07] I know that now that I could fix this and that if I just did better or did more, this

[00:07:12] would be all right.

[00:07:13] So, so when I think back to who I was back then, that's what he was thinking.

[00:07:19] He was thinking, okay, what's the problem?

[00:07:20] How are you going to solve this?

[00:07:21] How are you going to fix it?

[00:07:22] Not realizing that by trying to do that, I was prolonging not only my pain, but the

[00:07:30] organization's pain as well.

[00:07:32] Oh my gosh.

[00:07:34] Oh, I have so many questions.

[00:07:36] I, I want to drop a pin here.

[00:07:39] And then when we talk about reflections, when we get there, the curse of more.

[00:07:43] If I could do more, if I can learn more, if I could find more resources, this is the overachievers

[00:07:53] like curse is we believe more is more.

[00:07:57] And I bring that up because I have hit in 2024 personally and professionally, like I hate more

[00:08:05] is more.

[00:08:06] And I've spent 44 years saying more is more and I hate it.

[00:08:10] And I've, I hope, I hope that I finally learned my lesson.

[00:08:13] And I know we're talking about when you learned your lessons, but like more is not more.

[00:08:20] No, no, it is not.

[00:08:22] It is not.

[00:08:23] It is not.

[00:08:23] And what's interesting sometimes too, as technology leaders, we sometimes look at everything that

[00:08:29] we could possibly do for one side of that equation, right?

[00:08:32] Whether it's time and your relationships and family and compartmentalizing things.

[00:08:37] But sometimes we fail to see that the other side of that equation is infinite.

[00:08:42] You are never going to match it.

[00:08:46] Never.

[00:08:47] Never.

[00:08:47] And that's one of the things that, you know, this ordeal that we're just starting to peel

[00:08:52] the layers off describing started teaching me that lesson when I had to go through this.

[00:08:57] Hmm.

[00:08:58] What, what else were you feeling in those months and weeks leading up to knowing that you had

[00:09:06] to leave?

[00:09:07] So what's interesting is that, you know, we, we started the episode, right?

[00:09:11] Me mentioning that I journal a lot.

[00:09:14] And so in preparation for this, I was like, well, let me go back to the journals that I

[00:09:17] was writing during this time.

[00:09:19] And there's some pretty scary things in there.

[00:09:21] For instance, my wife told me one time, Michael, when you're asleep, you're sleeping like this

[00:09:28] with my head in my hands, face down in your pillow.

[00:09:34] That I was internalizing so much of the stress that my organization was going through at the

[00:09:40] time that, you know, it was affecting me physically, mentally, emotionally, started getting the usual

[00:09:47] suspects, right?

[00:09:48] The acid reflux, gaining weight, not enjoying any of your hobbies and different things of

[00:09:53] that nature.

[00:09:54] But all of those things just went by, right?

[00:09:58] I, I, I gave myself the usual delusion that it's just going to be temporary.

[00:10:03] And then I'll come back to these things once we get through this rough patch.

[00:10:06] So at the time, as I was going through these things, I didn't even recognize how bad things

[00:10:10] were getting.

[00:10:11] Um, it wouldn't be until after I left that friends walked up to me and said,

[00:10:17] Oh my goodness, you look so much better.

[00:10:20] And I'm like, what are you talking about?

[00:10:22] Don't I, you know, didn't I, didn't I put on this mask the right way?

[00:10:25] Didn't I hide all this stuff from you?

[00:10:27] They're like, no, I could tell.

[00:10:29] I could tell something was eating you up alive.

[00:10:30] I'm glad whatever it was that you did, you took care of because now you look different.

[00:10:36] Wow.

[00:10:37] Wow.

[00:10:39] So you were suffocating yourself in your sleep.

[00:10:42] You were gaining weight.

[00:10:44] Yeah.

[00:10:46] Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:47] Exactly.

[00:10:47] I was doing all these things.

[00:10:49] You know, when I think back of just how much we tend to internalize, um, because we think

[00:10:55] we can control it all.

[00:10:56] It was beyond, um, not healthy.

[00:10:58] And, and, and again, with, with maturity and with retrospect, I can see a lot of ego

[00:11:02] being in that as well.

[00:11:04] Of course.

[00:11:05] Of course.

[00:11:05] And, and I'm of the opinion, you know, ego is not all bad.

[00:11:09] I think if we know how to leverage our ego, we can actually do some really amazing things

[00:11:13] with it.

[00:11:13] It's when it lies to us for too long and too much and tells us to control versus allows

[00:11:24] you.

[00:11:25] I do believe we can use our egos to shine and to have courage when we need to.

[00:11:30] It's not all bad, but when it tells us that we have to control everything, when it tells

[00:11:34] us we always have to be perfect.

[00:11:36] We always have to put on the mask.

[00:11:39] That's when it's, it's overused.

[00:11:42] What did it feel like to have that mask on for you?

[00:11:45] Like, how did you know, how did you know you were using a mask versus using Michael?

[00:11:51] So one of the things that, you know, folks know about me, you know, whether it's a good

[00:11:56] thing or not, I usually kind of describe myself, uh, saying, you know, I'm about as

[00:11:59] subtle as a brick through your windshield.

[00:12:02] There's not a lot, there's not a lot of subtlety with me.

[00:12:05] You kind of, what you see is what you get.

[00:12:07] I love it.

[00:12:08] Um, and, and so, you know, as, as my, so as my organization was trained, it was changing

[00:12:13] around me, right.

[00:12:14] You're seeing the steady drip of people leaving, right.

[00:12:17] The institutional knowledge, you know, the different things that are going on.

[00:12:20] And I realized that I was wearing a mask when I had to hire, I had to sit on an interview

[00:12:28] for a replacement for a team lead that I was responsible for.

[00:12:33] And inside, as I was talking to them, I wanted to scream.

[00:12:37] Get out like that movie.

[00:12:39] Right.

[00:12:40] As they were sitting here.

[00:12:41] Yes.

[00:12:42] My job is to find talent for the organization and bring them in.

[00:12:45] But at the same time, I wanted to scream, run because, um, you know, I really just could

[00:12:52] not have them join the organization.

[00:12:54] It just, yeah, you knew better.

[00:12:55] It felt wrong.

[00:12:57] And so I just could not do that.

[00:12:58] So that's when I knew it was like, you know what, Mike, this is a mask.

[00:13:02] I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't do this.

[00:13:05] I feel those pains of those days.

[00:13:08] I, one time, um, I had an EA God lover.

[00:13:11] She was like the voice of the Holy spirit to me sometimes.

[00:13:14] And, um, there are two things that I quote her on often.

[00:13:17] And one is anytime I was emailing her at 10 o'clock at night, the next day, she would respond

[00:13:24] to me and go, shouldn't you have delegated this to me?

[00:13:26] So you didn't have to work at 10 o'clock at night.

[00:13:29] I'm like, Oh, you got me.

[00:13:30] And I've told that story a million times on this podcast.

[00:13:33] Cause it's just like the beams of truth.

[00:13:35] But the other thing that she said to me, because I said to her probably six weeks in a row,

[00:13:41] JC, if I can just get through the next two weeks, then everything will be okay.

[00:13:44] If I can just get through the next two weeks, everything will be okay.

[00:13:48] And she's like, Stephanie, you've said that for months straight now.

[00:13:51] Like, when is it going to stop?

[00:13:53] I was like, Oh, right.

[00:13:56] It never stops.

[00:13:57] It never stops.

[00:13:58] Yeah.

[00:13:59] Yeah.

[00:14:00] It's, and I think Marshall Goldsmith describes that too, uh, that a lot of leaders have this

[00:14:04] delusion that it's just a set period of time.

[00:14:07] And then once I get through it, everything will be better.

[00:14:09] But you know, that dream I had been doing for 10 years, right?

[00:14:15] You know, the same thing over and over again, it was just, just this one time or just this

[00:14:18] one crisis or just this one issue, but it just never would stop.

[00:14:23] Never.

[00:14:24] What were the actions that you took to get yourself out of that situation and get yourself into

[00:14:30] the place that you needed to be in that next season of life?

[00:14:33] There were a couple of things.

[00:14:35] One, you know, was having, you know, a conversation, right.

[00:14:38] You know, with my wife, with my friends, with my, with my coach, just about, Hey, you know,

[00:14:43] what am I facing?

[00:14:45] Because during all of this, these challenges, right.

[00:14:47] While, you know, the organization is constricting, right.

[00:14:51] You've got a change in public policy, which is affecting money.

[00:14:54] People are leaving.

[00:14:55] My friend and CEO at the time told me that she was leaving the organization.

[00:15:02] And in my mind, I'm thinking, wait a minute, you run this place.

[00:15:07] You're leaving.

[00:15:08] Is that an option?

[00:15:11] And then, and then at the same time, I'm thinking, oh my goodness, people are going

[00:15:15] to want me to stay, to take over.

[00:15:22] I was like, you know, that was sort of my, you know, uh, hero's journey refusal of the,

[00:15:29] of the call, if you will, to know that, Hey, this is, this is not where I need to be.

[00:15:34] I need to just be really, really clear on what it is I'm looking for and how to go.

[00:15:38] And one of the things that my coach said to me at the time, which really rung home,

[00:15:43] uh, he basically said something to the effect of, you know, Michael, you need to be in a

[00:15:46] place where you're celebrated, not tolerated.

[00:15:50] And when I thought about that, I was thinking, wait a minute, I am kind of tolerated.

[00:15:56] Haven't been celebrated in a, in a while.

[00:15:59] I haven't even allowed myself to celebrate some of my accomplishments in a while.

[00:16:03] And so that was one of the things that said, okay, you know what?

[00:16:05] Take an assessment and let's start taking a look at just what the next environment needs

[00:16:09] to look like for you.

[00:16:10] That's the mic drop of the moment.

[00:16:13] Are we in a place where we are celebrated, not tolerated?

[00:16:17] Correct.

[00:16:19] So what was that assessment?

[00:16:20] Like, I'm assuming you walked through it with your coach, like walk us through like

[00:16:24] some of those self-discovery moments.

[00:16:26] What are those, what were those hard hitting questions that you had to ask yourself

[00:16:31] so that you could find your next place?

[00:16:34] The hardest questions that I had to ask and answer was, you know, which part of this had

[00:16:40] I created either, you know, directly or inadvertently.

[00:16:46] Yes.

[00:16:46] Sometimes we can get, you know, used to what's familiar and what's comfortable, whether it's

[00:16:51] a bad job, a bad relationship, a car you put too much money into.

[00:16:55] And what's familiar is the thing that you want to stay around.

[00:16:59] And I had allowed myself to get really familiar with the ins and outs of my organization.

[00:17:03] I've pretty much probably done every single role except for CFO in it.

[00:17:07] And it's like, okay, so where have I let myself down and having to own that?

[00:17:13] And then once going through that piece, then asking some sort of, you know, again, you

[00:17:17] know, having a coach is great because they can sort of hold you accountable and give

[00:17:20] you this sort of external perspective.

[00:17:22] But part of it was just defining, well, hey, what is it that you want?

[00:17:26] What is it that you bring to the table?

[00:17:29] And where is the next place that you need to be?

[00:17:32] And that was a different set of questions because normally you're like, okay, you know,

[00:17:35] you do the usual suspects.

[00:17:36] Well, let me freshen up my resume.

[00:17:38] Let me hit the network event.

[00:17:39] Let me shotgun this place to see who's, and it really was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:17:42] Let's take a step back from that.

[00:17:44] What is it that you want?

[00:17:46] What's the value that you bring?

[00:17:48] And sometimes those are scary questions to ask yourself, right?

[00:17:51] But then once I did, and once I had that answer, I could see myself in a different light.

[00:17:57] I could see opportunities that, you know, I'd allowed my own internal thermostat, if you

[00:18:04] will hide from view because for whatever reason, they didn't match my own idea of what it was

[00:18:11] I could accomplish and go after.

[00:18:13] But once we had done some of that work, I could really start taking a look around me.

[00:18:18] I'm like, you know what?

[00:18:18] No, this is not for me.

[00:18:20] This is, no, this has been served its purpose.

[00:18:23] It's time for me to move to someplace else.

[00:18:25] And I could be selective about what things I would entertain versus not.

[00:18:29] And it didn't feel bad.

[00:18:31] It felt like a process of discovery and exploration.

[00:18:34] And so that's some of the steps that kind of led me to start moving to the new direction.

[00:18:40] I'm thinking of this concept of, you know, radical personal ownership and folks who are willing

[00:18:46] to ask and answer the question, what role did I play in creating this situation are often

[00:18:53] I find the people willing to take radical personal responsibility because, I mean, that is such

[00:18:59] a brave question to ask an answer for yourself.

[00:19:02] What do you know now about owning your career, owning what you want out of your life that you've

[00:19:10] come to learn since this experience?

[00:19:12] One of the things that I've come to learn since this experience really is what does it, at least

[00:19:18] for me, right?

[00:19:19] What does it mean to actually have that growth mindset?

[00:19:23] A lot of folks talk about growth mindset.

[00:19:25] But when you think about just what growth really feels like, you know, it's uncomfortable,

[00:19:31] right?

[00:19:31] You doubt yourself.

[00:19:32] I don't know enough.

[00:19:33] What am I doing?

[00:19:34] Is this a mistake?

[00:19:35] And things like that.

[00:19:36] And a lot of times those are so uncomfortable.

[00:19:39] People will tend to shy away from it.

[00:19:40] And for me, understanding that, hey, I want to get from here to there.

[00:19:44] There's a whole piece I need to learn and find out.

[00:19:48] And accepting that, you know what, it is going to feel uncomfortable.

[00:19:52] It's going to challenge my viewpoint.

[00:19:55] It's going to make me doubt myself.

[00:19:56] But knowing that those are the pieces that make me better on the other side of that and

[00:20:00] accepting that was something that I had shied away from before.

[00:20:03] So I wanted to stay in my areas of expertise.

[00:20:06] I wanted to stay in the places where I knew I could hit a home run every single time at

[00:20:10] bat.

[00:20:11] And that was one of the places that, you know, going through this process helped teach me

[00:20:16] that, you know what, this is the skill set and the muscle that you need to develop now

[00:20:21] in this next phase of your journey.

[00:20:24] And so that was one of the biggest takeaways of going through all of this.

[00:20:27] Oh, my gosh.

[00:20:28] And I just think about the connection to, because what I hear in your journey is a pattern of

[00:20:36] overachieving.

[00:20:38] And overachieving has this striving to it, this more is more kind of mentality that eventually

[00:20:45] brings us to our knees.

[00:20:47] And we have to admit, no, I just want to grow.

[00:20:49] I don't want to burn out all of the time.

[00:20:53] Michael, what I hear in your story is, and check me on this if you disagree, your striving

[00:21:01] before was related to more is more.

[00:21:04] I can do more.

[00:21:05] I can make this better.

[00:21:06] I can create better results.

[00:21:08] And through this journey, you came to admit to yourself, no, actually, I want to have a

[00:21:13] growth mindset.

[00:21:14] I want, I'm willing to be uncomfortable.

[00:21:16] I'm really willing to try new things.

[00:21:18] I'm willing to sit in the insecurity.

[00:21:20] How do you see high achieving and the growth mindset differently now than maybe you would

[00:21:27] have perceived it back then through that experience?

[00:21:31] You know, there's that old saying about, you know, what got you here won't get you there.

[00:21:36] That's right.

[00:21:37] Yes.

[00:21:37] Marshall Goldsmith, one of my boyfriends, the executive coach of executive coaches.

[00:21:42] He doesn't, he doesn't know me at all, but I know that.

[00:21:45] He doesn't know you yet.

[00:21:45] He doesn't know you yet.

[00:21:47] Yet.

[00:21:48] That's the growth mindset.

[00:21:49] Yet.

[00:21:50] I like it.

[00:21:50] Yeah.

[00:21:52] So, so, so for me, just, I guess, you know, one realizing that, you know, there are different

[00:21:58] seasons as it relates to a person and trying to, you know, stay in this one area all the

[00:22:04] time doesn't do me any good, doesn't do an organization good in order for me to really

[00:22:08] be the leader that I can be, right?

[00:22:12] I have to embrace the new, let go of the familiar.

[00:22:16] I've got to be a force multiplier.

[00:22:18] I've got to get my teams to move with me.

[00:22:20] That is a different set of skillsets.

[00:22:21] You can't code your way through that.

[00:22:23] I can't look at a line of code and look at all the, you know, the tuning that I've done

[00:22:27] on these databases and these clusters to prove that.

[00:22:30] No, it's something different now.

[00:22:31] And accepting that is one of the biggest pieces that came from this journal journey.

[00:22:35] And also the other piece that I got from this too, you know, there was, there was a fear,

[00:22:41] not so much a failure, but that people would attribute if the organization went under because

[00:22:49] of me.

[00:22:51] Right.

[00:22:52] And having to let go of that idea that, oh, well, people are going to say this organization

[00:22:56] tanked because I was the last one, you know, at the helm or things like that versus me realizing

[00:23:02] that, hey, me staying when I'm not operating the way that I need to be might exacerbate

[00:23:08] that in and of itself.

[00:23:09] So this was another piece that I took from this.

[00:23:12] Oh my gosh.

[00:23:13] That's, oh, that pressure that we put on ourselves is unbelievable and completely unrealistic.

[00:23:23] And my hunch is that it probably wasn't until you saw that in your journal where you were

[00:23:27] like, I'm putting the whole organization success on my shoulder.

[00:23:32] Like check yourself, Michael.

[00:23:34] Like, no offense, but you're not that important.

[00:23:37] Well, you know, and that's the thing about the superhero high, because you're so used

[00:23:42] to rushing in and saving the day all of the time that again, you know, that was my nickname.

[00:23:47] And so you kind of internalize that when you realize, you know what, maybe you need to

[00:23:51] kind of be more like Batman on this one and let folks kind of, you know, do for themselves

[00:23:56] with this versus trying to be, you know, Superman all the time.

[00:23:59] Yes.

[00:24:00] Oh my gosh.

[00:24:00] So we get to choose which superhero we get to be.

[00:24:04] Listen, you know, that's exactly right.

[00:24:07] That is exactly right.

[00:24:09] I love it.

[00:24:10] I have another friend, client, colleague who, uh, who's superhero of choices, Iron Man that

[00:24:16] comes out in certain situations because Iron Man has a strength and a drive and a determination

[00:24:25] that others don't, but he also knows when to put it away.

[00:24:28] Yeah, that's good.

[00:24:29] That's good.

[00:24:30] Yeah.

[00:24:30] No, that's, that's, that, that's the key right there.

[00:24:34] Knowing when to put it away.

[00:24:35] I love it.

[00:24:36] I never thought about superheroes.

[00:24:39] Hi.

[00:24:39] Yes.

[00:24:40] Oh, I'm also thinking of my husband.

[00:24:42] So he helped, um, run COVID response for our state during the heart of the pandemic.

[00:24:48] So from 2020 to 2022, basically.

[00:24:51] And, um, he worked a lot, but through that he earned the nickname, the, uh, Mr. Incredible.

[00:24:57] And, um, there are pieces of his story that I hear reflected in yours during the pandemic

[00:25:03] as well.

[00:25:04] And, um, yeah, the, I mean, the pandemic was such a time because it also showed me, so

[00:25:09] I don't know how they did it in Indiana, but here in Philly, they took the convention

[00:25:12] center, right.

[00:25:13] And, uh, it workers, we were like second in line healthcare workers were, were first.

[00:25:17] Um, and when I went down there, you know, you see the national guard and the Humvees and

[00:25:22] the QR codes and the scanners, and I'm seeing enterprise, you know, uh, you know, wireless

[00:25:27] access points, the databases, the screening and whatever.

[00:25:29] And I could see the large systems.

[00:25:31] And it reminded me, Mike, you got in a technology to help systems help people not to sit behind

[00:25:40] spreadsheets, not negotiate contracts, not to do procurements.

[00:25:43] You are supposed to be moving systems.

[00:25:46] What are you doing?

[00:25:47] And that's when I got the first knockings of that.

[00:25:49] Hey, you know what?

[00:25:50] Some, something may be misaligned here, but it wouldn't be until the organization started,

[00:25:55] you know, slowly, you know, drying up around me that I would see that.

[00:26:00] Hey, you know, you've let yourself get into a situation.

[00:26:03] Oh, I love that.

[00:26:05] It's, I love how the universe brings us the ways to show us our calling to light us back

[00:26:12] up, to remember what joy feels like and say, do that.

[00:26:16] Mike, do more of that.

[00:26:19] Yes.

[00:26:20] Yes.

[00:26:20] That's exactly what it was.

[00:26:22] So looking forward in your leadership journey, what do you want to take about the lessons that

[00:26:27] you've learned since then about who you are, who you are as a human, who you are as a spouse,

[00:26:33] who you are as a leader to continue to build those systems?

[00:26:37] And, and I almost said save the world, but that's a little too loaded for this conversation.

[00:26:43] Right.

[00:26:43] Exactly.

[00:26:44] Yeah.

[00:26:45] But do that big picture systems work that you know is impactful?

[00:26:49] What do you, what do you want to take with you into the future?

[00:26:52] Listen, there were some, you know, great things that, you know, I learned, you know, working

[00:26:57] with, you know, my previous organization and, you know, is where I was able to sort of honed

[00:27:02] my mission as related to helping nonprofits raise their expectation of excellence.

[00:27:09] And what, you know, and how I describe that for people is sometimes when a person is working

[00:27:14] for a mission-based organization or, or nonprofit, they might sometimes adopt the mentality that,

[00:27:19] okay, well, I'm delivering the service or this good.

[00:27:22] It's okay for it not to be like the for-profit people because it's for a good cause, right?

[00:27:29] Or for a mission.

[00:27:30] And my windmill that I've always tilted at is no, of anything, we should have the best

[00:27:38] things that we deploy because it is for people, because it is for children.

[00:27:42] And so my, you know, and working with organizations saying, hey, you know what, not only are we going

[00:27:46] to do this well, right, but we're going to change the expectation of what well is.

[00:27:52] There's no more reason why you should expect to do it second class.

[00:27:55] So for me, it is about using the same systems that Amazon does, the same processes that UPS

[00:28:01] does to deliver the same kinds of services and outcomes for people.

[00:28:05] So that I've taken with me and what that means and the learnings that that's going to push me

[00:28:10] and the uncomfortability that that will allow me to experience.

[00:28:13] But knowing that at the end of the day, that is the mission that I drive for through all

[00:28:17] of this is again, to help raise the expectation of excellence for those organizations to have

[00:28:23] a mission-based focus.

[00:28:24] That is who I am.

[00:28:25] They deserve to have someone like me.

[00:28:28] And that's what I bring.

[00:28:30] Oh, yes.

[00:28:32] I want more of that in the world, Mike.

[00:28:34] Yes.

[00:28:36] Oh, fabulous.

[00:28:38] All right.

[00:28:39] I just remembered our friend Rob Field had a special request for your podcast episode

[00:28:44] to ask you a certain question.

[00:28:46] Oh, Mr. Rob Field, of course.

[00:28:49] Of course.

[00:28:50] He wanted to make sure that we covered this together.

[00:28:53] Okay.

[00:28:55] And it's a riff on what I just asked you, but a little bit more present-based.

[00:28:59] What have you learned from that experience that has been instrumental in who you are now?

[00:29:04] You know what?

[00:29:06] The biggest piece from all of that experience that's been just crucial to understand who

[00:29:15] I am now is that we're bigger than our idea of us.

[00:29:22] And that a lot of times we will paint a comfortable picture.

[00:29:26] And I had done that.

[00:29:28] And my successes and my awards and my accolades, and while all of those are good, I can see now

[00:29:35] that I could have done so much more.

[00:29:37] But I allowed myself to paint a comfortable picture.

[00:29:40] So I am comfortable taking a brush to a new place where I am uncertain, where things feel

[00:29:49] unfamiliar, knowing that I've got the experience to paint another beautiful picture.

[00:29:55] It doesn't have to be the same thing.

[00:29:57] That's one of the biggest pieces I've learned from this.

[00:30:00] There is nothing to follow that up with, except I wished the whole world gets to learn these

[00:30:06] lessons through you too.

[00:30:08] So thank you so much, Mike.

[00:30:10] Thank you.

[00:30:10] You've made my day.

[00:30:11] Excellent.

[00:30:12] Thank you for the opportunity to share this story, Stephanie.

[00:30:14] I really appreciate it.

[00:30:15] Awesome.

[00:30:16] My friend, talking with Michael and feeling that pain that he was feeling as he was outgrowing

[00:30:24] his organization.

[00:30:25] I want to know, have you ever been there?

[00:30:27] I know I certainly have in my career.

[00:30:29] And there have been times that I have not handled it so gracefully.

[00:30:33] And I've sought to learn and grow from it.

[00:30:35] I hope that this conversation will help you do the same.

[00:30:40] The next time you feel like you're bumping up the limits of your role, of your organization,

[00:30:45] you have a better example from Michael about how to move through it, what questions to ask

[00:30:51] yourself.

[00:30:52] And I want to go back to that powerful question that he was willing to ask and answer for himself

[00:30:58] that I do believe was a pivotal moment in getting him to his next level.

[00:31:03] And that question was, how have I contributed to where I am now?

[00:31:07] What have I tolerated?

[00:31:09] Where have I created these problems for myself?

[00:31:11] Answer those questions for yourself.

[00:31:14] And you will truly be able to look yourself in the mirror with clarity to say, here's how

[00:31:20] I've created this.

[00:31:21] Now, what can I do next?

[00:31:23] What can I create for myself?

[00:31:25] What can I do to advance in the way that makes sense and honor my gifts and my strengths and

[00:31:31] my experience in a new place or in a new way for this existing organization?

[00:31:37] In order to get what you want out of your life and career, you first must be able to admit

[00:31:42] to yourself what you want out of your life and career and then go ask for it.

[00:31:47] That's the secret to all of this, my friend.

[00:31:50] All right.

[00:31:50] Again, if you got value from this episode, I'd be oh so grateful if you would share this

[00:31:54] with someone that you senses may be struggling with this as well, or.