[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age.
[00:00:15] Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. During her 35 years at Mars, Angela Mangiapane has been a leader in the front office, the middle office, and the back office, most recently as president of Mars Global Services for the last nine years.
[00:00:32] She has been a witness to and a driver of the digital era. And from those experiences come great wisdom and principles that should be guides to the coming generations of digital and technology leaders, as well as human beings in general. Rethink collaboration. Get your house in order. Unlearn to relearn.
[00:00:53] As she prepares to rewire instead of retire, Angela generously agreed to join Lauren Levack-Gilbert and me to pass along some of her observations and encouragements to you. Listen up. Welcome back to the podcast, Angela. We are so delighted to have you return. Thank you so much. Thank you, Peter. It's incredible to think that it's like just yesterday that we actually were speaking, but I'm sure you're going to remind me.
[00:01:20] Yes, I will. Well, you were guest number 26. Now we're about to be on 300. So that tells us a little something. And it was, we started the podcast almost six years ago, but it was in March of 2020, I think. Wow. Okay. March of 2020. I know where I was in March of 2020. That was COVID. We were, yes, we were children then. Yes, you were children, yeah.
[00:01:45] But now we have the incredible opportunity to speak with you as you cap an incredible 35-year career shepherding just immense business transformation at Mars. Like, first of all, congratulations on that. There are not many people who are at one company for a lot of their career. And it's such an achievement when you think of, we'll talk about all the places you've been, but it really is wonderful.
[00:02:17] Well, thank you, Peter. It does seem strange when you say it that way about being at the same place for 35 years. And I think that what I'm feeling very fortunate about is 35 years where I worked, I started off in finance, but Mars has given me the opportunity to work in operations, in IT, in HR.
[00:02:41] I worked across the three business segments, so snack food, and saw it renamed of chocolate, M&M Mars, snack food, right? So back and forth, I worked on food, and then even on the pet care business. And, you know, I'm originally from Toronto and moved down to the US. But again, Mars gave me an opportunity to live and work in North America, Latin America, as well as Europe.
[00:03:07] And then just the jobs that I've been able to hold gave me an opportunity to be with teams that literally were across the globe. So I have a team in China, I have a team in India, in Poland. So I really feel very blessed that, yes, one company that has been led by just such a great family. Yeah.
[00:03:31] And, but at the same time, had such a variety of roles and experiences that have led me to where I am today. And so Angela, at this point, you are, I believe you said you will be rewiring, not retiring in the next few months as you take on your next adventure. I don't want you to, you know, spill any secrets about your future here necessarily, unless you want to, of course.
[00:04:00] But, but how are you feeling about a new adventure? The word that comes to mind is extreme gratitude and fulfillment of the work that I have done in the past 35 years. Especially when I think about the, the different projects and initiatives that I was able to participate in.
[00:04:25] It's always been very much about transformation, but not just transformation from a business, the typical business perspective that we think, you know, which is okay. Did you deliver on the bottom line or did you provide the revenue growth? But it's also the growth that we've given our associates, right? So as you recall, Peter, we, we call our employees associates.
[00:04:46] And if I think about, you know, the past 35 years, just personally seeing the growth of so many individuals that I've, I've been able to shepherd through higher and promote and so forth. It's been very, very fulfilling. So that's why I, I really, you know, leave with just an immense sense of, of fulfillment and gratitude. And, you know, what do I look forward next? Well, maybe to coin that Frank Sinatra song, right? The best is yet to come, right? And, uh, love it.
[00:05:15] And for me, the rewiring, while I haven't quite say that I've, that I've got it articulated in a clear enough way. I think there's, there's still three areas that I am focusing. First and foremost is, um, is my own family, including me. So personal health and wellbeing, my, my grandkids, my husband. I mean, he's still excited to, to be with me after, you know, after I've finished working, which is great. Wow, you are lucky.
[00:05:42] Um, and, um, and I, and the other part is just bringing some of my activities that I've done in the periphery, much more into the center. So all the work that I do with nonprofit, I'm, I'm active in, in some nonprofits that are focusing on, um, uh, young women empowerment, uh, mentorship programs, uh, the, um, the, uh, local, uh, theater group. Um, that, uh, I'm part of.
[00:06:08] Um, and then the third one is something that I'm just exploring, uh, which is around the whole digital literacy. And how do we make sure that as the pace of this technological change is going at an unprecedented rate, how do we make sure that society is keeping up? And that what we don't end up doing is create this chasm of people who know how to do digital and people who do not.
[00:06:36] So, uh, still in early stages of thinking, but, uh, but, but that's, that's the other area that I'd like to, uh, rewire myself and, and understand better how I can contribute and make, and have an impact there. Can't wait to hear about that. Please keep us updated because I think that's a really strong and powerful initiative that, that you're working on. Um, that's exciting to hear. And so Angela, you've had so many different roles. You've been in multiple different countries.
[00:07:02] You've had ownership of, of, of digital and technology in multiple different countries. How have you seen the shopping experience change over the years, especially really the move to digital and now really more digitally focused. You've had a perfect seat to watch it. So what have your observations been? Yep. It's a great question because I, I think what happens is, you know, I, so I work in a consumer packaged goods business and industry.
[00:07:31] Um, and sometimes we forget that we're equally the consumer of our brands and we shop at our brands. Right. Um, so, so certainly I could say that during my lifetime and I was probably in the past five years, it has been transformative. If I can use an overused word, but it's the only word really I can think of in that it has fundamentally changed the way, um, someone approaches their relationship with a retailer.
[00:08:00] Um, and, and what does it mean when I think about a purchasing an item, purchasing a service and experience? Um, so first of all, I'll give you a little story of, and I have to do sort of pre 2020, post 2020. So pre 2020, I did spend a lot of time in China. So my work brought me to China. Uh, probably I would say it was 10 years. So sorry, around 2010 to 20 to 2020.
[00:08:25] And what I was always amazed was with the technology advancements, how focused they were on that consumer experience, right? You'd, you'd go around and you see everybody on their phone. And if I think about WeChat, not only was WeChat connecting them socially with each other, but it was also a place of business. And, and it was incredible, right? Things would just show up, pop up and, and zoom. You would see things that were available.
[00:08:50] Um, all of a sudden somebody would mention an item and, and everybody would then converge to it and you'd see sales, you know, lifting. Uh, a great example of that was Luckin Coffee versus Starbucks, right? Starbucks took 10 years to create a coffee culture in, in China or specifically in the city. So Shanghai is the one that I'm most aware of. And here's Luckin Coffee came in. And I think in months ended up doing what, what it took Starbucks for, for, for a decade.
[00:09:19] Um, so to me, it was really powerful to see that. And I'm even embarrassed to tell you that when I went to, to buy something, the realization that I didn't have WeChat and that they didn't even accept credit cards, let alone cash. Right? So you're thinking, okay, something is really different over here. So then you come into, from 2020 and especially during COVID, all of a sudden there was a dramatic change in what I call the retail landscape, right? Cause you couldn't go out to the stores, the physical stores.
[00:09:47] And, and while yes, people were doing online shopping, online shopping became more, I would say, you know, it went from being a, this, just a transaction. Click, I buy something to an experience that said, I can now track what Angela likes. I can give her recommendations. I can give her recommendations with a little algorithm, but she can also join community groups.
[00:10:12] Um, and then if you think about even some of the, um, TV pros, like the bachelorette, right? I mean, who would have thought watching the bachelorette and all of a sudden getting that, oh, do you know, you can buy the same bag that so-and-so is, is, is wearing or the shoes or the outfits. Right.
[00:10:35] And, and you're sitting there going, okay, somebody knows I'm watching the bachelorette and, uh, and here's what they're recommending. Right. So it's fundamentally changed to, I would say from having an experience or a product that was going out to many to now it is a very intimate one-to-one relationship. Right. Um, now it comes with consequences, right? Every, I always say every tree casts a shadow.
[00:11:01] So we have this beautiful tree that's giving me this one-to-one perspective and experience. And at the same time, well, what does that mean? Well, what it means all of a sudden is, boy, do I have a lot of choice. And there's this paradox, the paradox of choice, right? I think when, when, um, uh, you know, Apple tunes, right? You, you say you have now thousands and thousands of titles in which to choose.
[00:11:26] And what they're noticing is that people actually really narrow it down to a small number of their favorite tunes. So here you have, you have this huge amount to choose from and you're limiting yourself. So there is something around the paradox of choice. It can become overwhelming. And, and I do see it myself when I, you know, when I go to the store at times where I'll go online and I'm like, okay, I really just want choice A or B. I want a choice, but I want A or B, right? So there's a paradox of choice.
[00:11:53] Then the other part is, you know, the algorithm starts to kick in and it creates a bit of an echo chamber. Right. So Angela likes these movies. So guess what? I'm getting a whole bunch of similar movies. And at times what happens then is this, this less of sense of serendipity and of discovery of awe of something that I would not have discovered.
[00:12:17] Um, and one of the things that I try to do is anytime I go to like a small town, I happen to be like a Sunday drive and you find yourself in a small town is I'll always look up and see if there's a small independent bookstore. And what I love is I'll just go to the, to the bookstore and I'll ask the person there at the counter, what are you reading? And you know what? I'll buy the book. Look, six times out of 10. I'm like, I'm not really sure why I bought this book because this is not really interesting, but you know what?
[00:12:47] Four times out of 10, I'm like, wow, this is, this was actually really good. And, um, I'll go and explore something that I never, never would have discovered. And the algorithm would never have discovered because I wasn't paying attention to that. Right. So that's that other part of just that serendipity. And how do you find things? I go back to, again, Steve Jobs created something, which was great, right? It was the whole thing of the iPhone.
[00:13:10] And yet, if you'd ask somebody, would you want your iPhone with having music on it and, and all the things that we have today, the camera and so forth, right? We would have said no way. Right. So it is, it is discovering, I call it off the beaten path. And every once in a while, I think you need to go off the beaten path. Um, and then the third part is, I would say is with, especially with the advent of AI, um, and generative AI is that we do have responsibility to our consumers. It's too easy to say buyer beware.
[00:13:40] It's up to the consumer. I do think we live in a society where we all have to have that responsibility and that, yes, the consumer does need to be responsible for what they're, they're choosing. But I think corporations also have a responsibility to ensure, um, who are we targeting? And what are we doing is it's like Mars has a marketing code, um, with generative AI, we have to be really careful.
[00:14:04] And, and we do, we have lots of guardrails in place to making sure that we don't end up, um, doing something that causes harm for, for, for children and so forth. So we take that to account. So lots of opportunity and like all things, we have to also have a responsibility to make sure, um, that we are doing everything that ensures that we maintain that being a, a force for good in society, as opposed to, to the unintended consequence of, uh, of harming.
[00:14:32] So Angela, you talked about the paradox of choice and I'm, I'm curious your perspective on how AI agents are going to make that even more targeted, right? Because you're now giving them a set of criteria. They know something about you already, and they're going to provide a recommendation. How do you see that fundamentally changing how brands, even like Mars, try to compete in the category where, an AI agent's making a choice for you, not a consumer necessarily. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:02] No, it's a great question because as we know, at least from what I understand, right? Because I, I will tell you, I am not going to say here, we know we're living in a world where it's not about the know-it-all. I think it's about the learn-it-all. And so agents, I'm certainly discovering, uh, this and, and I can't profess to say I'm an expert at it at all. My, my first inclination would be that it does feel scary, right? Because what it can do is it can decide for you.
[00:15:27] And I, and I've, I've seen, you know, I've gone in and looked at examples where it can scour through all of my subscriptions. And tell me, recommend, and actually not only recommend, it'll do it for me, right? Which will say, these are the ones that you're actually reading and utilizing. These are the ones that you don't. I know, by the way, these are the ones that you can renegotiate. And I will send all the notes and, and, uh, and, and confirm everything with you and do all, all the stuff that you need to do. And you don't need to do anything, right?
[00:15:56] There's a part of me that goes, wow. Okay. What did that mean? Right. What am I going to do? Then there's another part that says, actually, there's two things. One is it really does free up my time on the stuff that I really want to focus on. Um, but two, and, and two, it also says you better have the data, right? Yeah.
[00:16:20] Because all of a sudden, if it has wrong subscriptions, then I may not get what I'm looking for. Right. So there's, I go in with this feeling of, it could augment my, my day by doing the things that I really like. And that, and that no one can say, well, that's a, a, an agent's going to take away from you on that. Well, if you like doing that, you'll still continue doing that. And if anything, you can augment it. Right.
[00:16:45] I, a lot of the, uh, the, um, artists, I, you know, I hear people saying, well, the, um, copyright for art, art, art, you know, for art and so forth. Absolutely important on the flip side, art is being now created, augmented with generative AI. Right. So that creates a whole other, uh, media if you think about it. Right. Right. So that's also very exciting, which it means you have new applications that can be now derived, um, new revenue growth for, for, for a business. Right.
[00:17:15] So that's all very exciting, but it does mean your data and the way you process work really matters. And I think the role of the human still in the loop, right? The human being in the loop is taking that step back and going, hold on a minute. Based on my years of experience, based on what I'm seeing, does this still make sense? Right. And so I, I think for me, it's an and, and it's, it's, it's having now another tool.
[00:17:44] Um, but we'll see, I mean, you know, it's, uh, we'll see where this takes us. Maybe, maybe it is a star Trek and I'm going to go into my little hologram and just disappear and, and, and, uh, and enjoy coming up with all kinds of stories that I can participate in. And I don't have to worry about anything else. I don't know, but anyway, I think, I think for now it, it, it is one opportunity, but it's also going to go back to responsibility and making sure, um, that, uh, that those foundations are in place.
[00:18:12] Well, that was one of the most notable things that you said in your opening was when you were reflecting that the, the, the experiences that you are most proud of and grateful for at Mars are the human beings that you've met, you've learned from, you've guided. And that, you know, just continuously reminds me that, you know, we talk about people process technology, but really you can set up the best process in the world.
[00:18:38] But if the people don't follow it, or if the, you have great people, but your processing, it's like that, that mesh of it all to make those things work. And to, and to, uh, uh, you know, you've spent a lot of your career trying to attack the silos and get rid of bottlenecks and do, do what you can to really speed things up, but keep, like you said, the humans in the loop. And, um, sometimes those process improvements lead to frustration on people's parts.
[00:19:07] And, and now, you know, with AI and tools like Salonis and SAP's new releases to, to sort of map those processes and identify pain points, like they're all sort of wrapped around like lean six Sigma kind of thing. Like, how did you work to do, how do you think about all of this when you think about how to make processes that, um, that results in the right outcomes at the right time?
[00:19:36] Yeah. And, you know, you talked about lean six Sigma and I, I, I, I was thinking about this going, why is it that in factories, six Sigma seemed to work, right? So back in the nineties, there was a lot of talk about, let's get our process out there, do business process re-engineering. Let's use, um, lean six Sigma. It didn't work. Now, partly to your point today, we have some really good tools like Salonis.
[00:20:00] And you talked about also what SAP has, right? That they go in and, and they're able to take out any bias and they can do it fast, right? They, they go in and say, this is how the, the work is happening. And you're repeating things three times or even up to 30 times there's inefficiencies and so forth. But why is it that, um, you know, it's still hard and, and I, and it goes back to the point you made around people. Even today, what, what seems to be the blocker for anything is the people side, right?
[00:20:30] So even the algorithms and the tools, they represent such a small piece of the change. It is very dependent on people. And if I think about factories, what was different? Well, in a factory, first of all, you have the team leader and you have shifts and those people on the shifts do, do a range of work. So you have the person who's a packaging operator. You have the person who is responsible for the peanut room. You have the person who's responsible for the chocolate room, right?
[00:20:57] And you then have the person who's like looking at the nougat that's going down the line, right? They're all very different aspects of, of, of the, of the job, right? Of producing a chocolate bar. But every day, first thing, when that shift starts, what do they do? They all come together and they talk about what happened with the previous shift.
[00:21:18] So the two shifts actually, they, they coincide. The, the, the ship that's leaving comes in, spends about 10 minutes talking to the shift that's coming in and they go over what happened. Now, when's the last time that you think about, did a salesperson connect with the order taker or the person who's collecting the cash? Did they sit down every day in the morning and go, okay, so let's actually review what happened here, right? No, no. Right.
[00:21:47] So again, the tools allow us to do that, but you have to have this mindset that says, I have to look at the entire end to end. And, and this is a big change, right? Because it forces collaboration, collaboration across the functions, as opposed to, it's not just optimizing your own function. It's you have to optimize what is that activity of work that goes from A, B, C, D, which means you're cutting across those functional lines. So collaboration, we have to really rethink what it means.
[00:22:14] And we have to actually even change potentially how we are rewarded differently and, and a good reward system and, and, and outcome of what you want to achieve can really influence people. I mean, I've seen it when I was in HR, right? You had a very good scorecard on how to motivate people to get the job done. And they knew, okay, this is what's at stake. You got that movement. You got that change, right?
[00:22:44] So, so there is this whole aspect of really rethinking about collaboration. I think the second piece is, you know, we went back to about data. I think that in the past, everybody would give up and throw their hands up and say, data is just too hard. It's disparate. Can't get it done. Again, I go back to where there has to be much more of an end to end and you have to hold people to account that the data matters. And not just data that you say, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to transfer this into the system.
[00:23:13] But is the data that's in the system also the data that's physically there in the warehouse? And I would, again, I would encourage everyone is when's the last time. So for all, all the, you know, if there's marketers out there listening to this, right? When's the last time you went to the warehouse and you actually measured the packaging size or you took a look at that packaging and said, does it match what I have here in my spec? Basic stuff, right? Basic stuff, right?
[00:23:42] This is basic stuff. But it's stuff that I know has been wrong and we've had to correct it. So getting those, you know, getting your house in order and ensuring that you really pump it up to say that this is important. Lots of people focus on the sexy stuff and it's great to focus on the sexy stuff, right? But if you don't, if you don't, again, if you don't focus on those foundations, your house structurally will, will, will fall down.
[00:24:08] And then, and then the last one, which again, you know, I think we live in an age where you have to keep trying things because we're always continually learning. And I have, I have this whole adage that says, when I finally stop learning, that's when I get old. So I am never going to stop learning because I could always say I'm young. But, but, but there is this aspect of how do we go from this? I know it all. I know somebody will say to me, oh, 35 years of the business. Like, so you must know a lot.
[00:24:38] I'm like, you know, actually what I'm noticing is that as one gets older, the less I know. Because there's just so much out there that you can start asking questions. Well, why is that? Why is that? Why is that? Right. So, and so this, this whole aspect of we have to go from thinking that leaders have to know it all. Yeah. To, leaders have to create an environment that you have to have people going, you know, it's, it's about learning. I've got to be the learn it all.
[00:25:09] And, and being okay to say, I don't actually get this. You know, like, you know, Gen AI agents. I am just learning that. And somewhere, someone in the organization will say, okay, I'll, I'll teach you that, Angela. And it can be a 24 year old. And that's okay. It's, it's, it's part of the reverse mentoring that I also, I love doing because I learn a lot that way. So, so we've got to, we've got to get into this, this aspect of, you know, rethink how we, how we approach collaboration.
[00:25:39] Got to get those foundations in place. And then once they are in place, guess what? They may still, they may be wrong. You got to go back and you got to learn, unlearn to relearn because what will stop us from growing and moving is these core limiting beliefs that we either say, oh yeah, I've done this. We've done this before. I got it. I got it covered. You know, if you ever hear somebody say, I got this, uh, be very wary. They don't got it. They don't got it. That's right.
[00:26:06] As you were talking, uh, I kept thinking of the word humility. The, and sometimes humility, uh, people are afraid to be humble or, or, you know, let people know that they're not sure about something or that they don't have all the answers.
[00:26:24] And it sounds like throughout your career, I don't know, maybe you started with that level of humility, but it certainly feels like by this point with all you've done, we've, we all learned that nobody has all the answers and we're all in to one degree or another, just making it up. But let's make it up together and measure it and do all those things that then gets us to the next place. Does that, does that resonate with you? Yes. No, it does.
[00:26:48] I mean, I know there are people that say, you know, there's a whole thing about, was it a fake it till you fake it till you make it? I think something, yeah, but something like that. I've always struggled with that because it implies that we have to have this, this perception to people that I know it. As opposed to, I mean, I love what you said there, Peter, which was, you know, acknowledging, I may not know this and I do need help from other people.
[00:27:14] I mean, not, not to get too much into, you know, what's going on in the world today, but, you know, I think that the only way we can solve today's problems is we got to get all together in a room and bring in all the greatness of each person. Because not one person knows it all, right? We learn from each other and, and we go forward. And, you know, to your point, when did I learn that? Well, you know, I guess when you're young, you think you can do anything, right? Mm-hmm.
[00:27:43] And as one gets older, hopefully one acquires a little bit more wisdom. And how do you acquire wisdom? It's because you failed a lot. And you, and what do you do? You pick yourself up, you dust it, dust it off, right? And I got a lot of stories I could tell you where I failed, but while I didn't dust it off, I always went and bought myself a new article of clothing. It's been my. I love that. I mean, I had one story where I was, it was bad.
[00:28:11] I have to tell you, like, I missed every metric in the book. And I, and I remember going home at a night and I said to my husband, you know what? I think on Monday, I may not be, I may not be, you know, around that much, right? I think I'm going to be probably told that's it. And he said to me, we're going to go and buy you a wonderful suit. This was back in the day where you still wore your suit, you know, to the office, right?
[00:28:36] And bought my high heels and about a red suit, red suit went up the stairs as in, you know what? I'm going to pick myself up. And yeah, I, I, I failed on these three deliverables, but now I know. And now I know what I will not do, or now I don't know what I'll do differently. And this is where I thank Mars. Mars, you know, did not let go of me.
[00:29:02] They put me in another role and they said, okay, start, start again. It's amazing. And, and, and, you know, and I've, I've carried that with me. I mean, maybe I was fortunate enough that it was early enough in my career and I've carried that with me for other people. And some people say to me, oh, this person, forget it. It's like, well, let's put them in a different role. Let's put them in a very different environment. And let's see what happens. And I will tell you nine times out of 10, they thrive. Yes.
[00:29:31] There's always the one, you know, this, this is the law of numbers too. You know, you're, you're Belker, right? You're always going to get the ones that shine no matter what, you don't even have to do anything. They just shine. And then you get the few that unfortunately just isn't going to work, but, but there's that middle. And that middle, if you just figure out, you know, the fertilizer you need to put in there and the water every day, they got to be watered. They, they can thrive. And this is what the whole thing with digital literacy as well.
[00:30:01] You know, we talk about what's going on with the digital world. And, and this is what's intriguing me is that we can sit there and say, you know what, I'm only going to go and pick the talent that knows how to do digital. Well, with the demographic changes that are coming, we're going to be fighting for a very small pool of people. And then what do you do with all the people that are left? Are you going to sit there and go, well, see you. And this is where I think you come back to where corporations do have a social obligation
[00:30:30] and a human obligation, which is okay. We're going to now reskill you as long as you want to learn. Right. And, and, and this way we get everybody being digitally literate because if we're all digitally literate, guess what? It's not in the hands of the few. Right. Data is now in the hands of many. And if data is in the hands of many, then some of the decisions that we're making, you're, you're getting a different aspects, different viewpoints, and hopefully you'll come to a better decision.
[00:30:59] And then, and, and people will then also be held to account, right? You can't just say, well, I don't know this anymore. I always say, no, you can't say you don't know. You do know, and you have a responsibility to, to use that talent and, and, and learn it. So to me, digital literacy is, is no different than people knowing how to read and write. I mean, just imagine if, if we still lived in an age where, you know, most people didn't
[00:31:26] read and write, no communication. And when you have no communication, you can't build upon ideas. If you think about science, the way it works, right? Science has been built off of discoveries that happened all over the world. And then it was through the art of communication that, that then people found out about this knowledge. But I think the same thing with, with digital and it promotes then trust because now people understand it. Right. I mean, I hate when people say it's a big, big black box, right?
[00:31:54] We, we had this, we had this session one time on generative AI and a vendor who will remain nameless came in and said, and it was a tech, tech vendor. And said, yeah, there's like some stuff happens in this black box. We're not really even familiar with it. And I'm thinking, oh my God, if the tech company doesn't know. Right. I'm like, forget it. We don't have any hope in understanding it. Right.
[00:32:20] And, and, you know, to me, there, there shouldn't be a black box. We should, we should know because this is, it's too important. Too important. Yeah. Yeah. Particularly, particularly with AI. Yes. Yeah. Well, and we have a generation that's coming up. That is. Digital first. That's all they see. Digital first. Right. Anyway, sorry. I interrupted you, Lauren. No, no, no. You're totally fine. I was just going to pull on the thread of collaboration.
[00:32:47] So you, you, you've talked a lot about connecting the dots between internal organizations and how you need to work together. And I think that applies internally and externally, right? Because you have tech partners, you have agencies, you have partners in general that are helping you, but how do you incorporate that into your culture to have that level of trust, both internally to collaborate and externally with partners or technology to help you? Right. Right.
[00:33:14] So first off, I'm a big believer in that when people talk about the walls of an organization, right? They're very porous. There is no such thing as a cement wall because then you would say, I'm closed to anything that's coming from the outside. Secondly, again, going back to the five principles of Mars, I think we've been very fortunate that
[00:33:36] when Forrest Mars back in a letter of 1947 wrote about mutuality and saying that a shared benefit is an enduring benefit. And, and he really believed in that philosophy that it was about win-win. And so it wasn't, you know, about, Hey, the supplier can give me this great price. And I'm going to feel good about that because I want that supplier who's really my partner to also thrive.
[00:34:05] Because if, if they're not here in five or six years time, then I don't have a relationship, right? And I want that relationship. So to your point, collaboration needs to be looked at across the overall ecosystem. And, and so at, at Mars, um, and also in terms of the way that I've always looked at any problem that I'm trying to, to solve is first, I always look at the four capitals, right? So there's an economic capital, economic capital basically says, I need to make a return, right?
[00:34:34] And now you have to, but then you also look across and say, what am I doing from, from a community perspective, which is the social capital. So by the fact that when we invest somewhere, so in Topeka, Kansas, well, what is that doing to the community? And is it making it thrive? Um, we look at human capital, which is the discussion around the whole digital literacy, which is we, it is our responsibility to also improve that, the, the, uh, the, the development, obviously the continuous development of the human being.
[00:35:03] And then there's natural capital, which is, am I, am I doing something that's going to harm the earth? Um, now these are hard constructs because in many cases, how do you even measure this? Right. I mean, how do you, do you measure in saying, okay, I'm going to do an IQ for somebody? No, cause that's all filled with biases as well. Right. But I think having that sense of consciousness that says that when I look at a problem, let's,
[00:35:33] first of all, turn it into an opportunity. And the only way I can address it as an opportunity is looking at those four types of capital and looking at the customer, looking at the consumer, because ultimately that's who we should also be looking at is, you know, I'm doing something that's all for improving the life of that consumer. Right. And then looking also down the supply chain that says, okay, what's in my partnerships that I have, what am I doing with them?
[00:36:03] Am I improving what they're offering? Am I, am I improving that they're able to provide their workforce and, you know, you put it all the way down even to the, to the cocoa where some of the stories where we're helping women that are now producing cocoa and, and, and, and, uh, other, uh, uh, uh, call agricultural products, right. Because they also are gaining now an income. So you do need to look at this across.
[00:36:32] Again, what's exciting about the whole tech revolution now is the visibility that this can give us. And, and I actually believe that people can leapfrog now into doing things that only even five years ago, 10 years ago, we would have said it's impossible to do. How do you capture that data so that I can now turn that data into actionable insights? Um, that could help me improve. And even if it doesn't, if it's not something that's attributed to what I'm personally doing
[00:36:59] within my own scope of work, but if it's, if it's improving something with, for my consumer or for my, my, my vendor partner, that's going to help Mars as well. So it's, it's really always trying to find that win-win. And, and, and again, I go back to where. If everyone has the same tools and is able to have access to the data, then you're going
[00:37:27] to get now thousands of people that can help you innovate. So in the hands of the few, you don't put in the hands of the many. Um, and, and then we, we get, we break down those barriers because you're, you're again, you are, you know, to your point about the humility ideas can come from anyone and anywhere. And then you have this, you have the machine here that can actually then scale it up and, and make it quite actionable and turn it into something.
[00:37:56] And, and Angela, can you give some examples of how, uh, Mars is investing in the digital literacy of, of their teams? Like what, what to the degree you can share, like, what are those programs look like? And, and how, uh, I guess you were talking earlier about some of these things are hard to measure, but can you get a sense of, of where that work is, is taking Mars and how you're seeing it? Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so I'll break it down into two.
[00:38:25] First of all, I would say we've always been very strong with leadership training and education. Um, and so we offer all of our associates, you know, leadership is at all levels. So we do offer all of our associates, a lot of leadership training, um, how to, um, resolve conflict and we actually, you know, conflict is not bad, right? It's, it's that, but it's how do you then address it and talk about an issue and how do you resolve it? So I think literature, leadership has always been there in the psyche.
[00:38:53] Um, and we've offered that through our Mars university. Um, and, and that's been something that probably going way back to even John and Forrest, they always espoused strong sense of the leadership training and education. Um, on the, on the digital front, um, there we've done a couple of things. We've approached it from a design thinking angle, first and foremost, that says, let's make sure that we really understand what's the problem we're trying to solve for and how do you then approach it?
[00:39:22] Um, and again, we, we, we get people in these classes that are coming across very different, um, the, uh, I call it multidisciplinary functions. Um, and we always put it in more in the case of what's a problem that we're trying to solve. So again, it's very tangible as opposed to getting into theoretical. Um, so we've, we've, we've gone with that approach and then on the actual, like getting people to, to understand digital.
[00:39:49] Um, I would say for me by far, what has been the most inspiring is that the, the, the Mars leadership team. So the CEO and, and his direct report. So Paul Weirach with his direct reports, uh, they've all gone through digital training. And so then he comes out and says, look, I've gone through these modules and I think we had something like 16 modules. If I'm not mistaken.
[00:40:15] And I think you had to do 12 of the 16 to, to, I'll call it, get the check mark. Right. He went through personally with his team, um, through the digital literacy, uh, program. And these were off the shelf. I mean, this was not something that was like, we have to make it martialized or whatever. This was off the shelf packages. And they range from what is quantum computing, uh, to even like cybersecurity.
[00:40:41] And how do you, how do you manage that to a real basic of, um, you know, prompt engineering? Like, how do you, how do you ask for questions? Right. So it was the full, the full gamut. Um, and once they had done that, their challenge then was to the next level down. Okay. So you, you now have a certain time period to do these courses and, and it just ended up being cascaded down. Um, and it was, it was great because one is you really felt a sense of community that
[00:41:09] everyone for a period of time was focusing on this. Like all things got a little bit competitive too, right? I mean, very competitive at Mars. And so people would kind of look at the scoreboard and see who had, who had completed the most. Um, there was a little, uh, quiz at the end, right? So you had to actually, I think you had to get something like 10 out of 15 questions, right. To go to the next module or else you had to redo the module. Right. So, and it would show you how many times somebody did that. Right.
[00:41:39] So you could see that people were very mindful of making sure that, that they did it, but it, it was something that was quite fun. Um, and I think it was, again, it was an artifact. It was an artifact for the rest of the organization to see that this is something that was important that even the most senior levels were, were doing. Um, and, and every year they go through a session, actually, as we speak, um, the leadership team of Mars is actually in India.
[00:42:06] Um, and, and they're in, uh, somewhere in New Delhi looking at, um, uh, basically digital innovation with, uh, um, kind of very entrepreneurial businesses. Um, and so this, this, again, these are artifacts that people say, okay, if this is what's happening to these folks up here, again, learn it all, not know it all. Then it's okay for me to go out and explore and, and, and it gives permission for folks to say, do you know what?
[00:42:35] We need to carve out time during the day to go and explore for these things. Um, so that's a few examples, but to me, the best one is like, you got to experiment, you got to do it. Um, and then as soon as you have a great idea is tell the, tell the world so we can scale it. Don't be shy because it's the scaling that gives you then the benefit. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:00] Knowing that you may be disrupted in, in days, right? Okay. But that's okay because you've got to, you got to keep, you got to keep going. Well, I mean, certainly having worked with a lot of people from Mars over the years, uh, you know, I'm, I'm at in August, I'll be 10 years in this industry. And, uh, and they, you, you folks just live your culture.
[00:43:28] Everyone carries that stealth, that sense of pride and commitment and passion and humor. Like I, I have to say, I've just been so impressed with the human beings from Mars as, as people to collaborate with and people that are always looking to give back. And to share what they've learned. It's a really impressive commitment. I think it speaks to, to who Mars is as, as an organization. Yeah.
[00:43:54] And Angela, as we close, um, I would love to have this be a three hour podcast, but your time is valuable. So as we close, one of the things I've been impressed about in this industry is just how many powerhouse women there are at all these organizations that are leading and innovating. And driving change. And I was wondering as, as young women at Mars come up to you and ask about how, how do I build a career like yours?
[00:44:24] Like, uh, what is, you know, what is the advice that you, that you give them? Um, so first and foremost, I would say define who you want to be. Don't let others define you. Right. Cause I find many times young women will come and say, um, am I expected to do this? Right. Am I expected that I need to be mobile?
[00:44:52] So the only way I can get a promotion is I have to show that I can move wherever I, you know, anywhere in the world type of thing, as an example, or, or that I can't, um, you know, I want to be able to say to my boss that I need to actually start at 10 in the morning because my child needs some special care type of thing. Right. So I always, I always make sure that you're really clear about who it is you want to be
[00:45:16] set those boundaries because when it's clear, then it's simple to figure out what's next. What makes it complicated is when it's not clear. Right. So that's, that's the first point, which I would say is being very, very much, you know, defy, do man have, you know, you define who you want to be, and then you can make decisions based on that. And people then will also go, okay, I get it. I get what Angela wants to do. So now let's together figure out how we can do this together.
[00:45:46] That would be the first thing. Um, the second part of this is you got to raise your hand. What I learned is that, you know, I had this belief, you work hard, people will notice you. Um, so, you know, don't, don't, uh, get, be too aggressive, right? Because women tend to be seen as aggressive if we ask for a raise or we ask for that promotion.
[00:46:12] And, and, and for me, what I learned is that, no, actually you do need to ask. And if they think you're aggressive, that's fine. You're aggressive, right? You, uh, I'll interpret it as you're being assertive, but you got to raise your hand to say, do you know what? I want to do that. And if I look at all the roles that I've held, the roles that I had the most fun, the roles that gave me a lot more exposure and, and I had a lot of success are all the ones that I raised my hand.
[00:46:39] And some of them were ones that my colleagues would go, what are you thinking? All right. Are you crazy? And I would say, no, I can see something here because I think I can transform it. I, I have a skillset that I can bring to the party as well as I have lots of opportunity to learn. Um, and, and so to me, it's, it's, um, you know, core limiting belief, raise your hand.
[00:47:06] Um, and then I think the, the, the final one is it's okay if it doesn't work. We put a lot of stress on ourselves to say, well, this all has to work. And I would say it doesn't, when it doesn't work, you learn something from that and, and you move forward. I mean, you know, this is what life is crooked lines. I'd love to meet someone who has managed from, you know, when they were born and it's
[00:47:35] been a straight line. Um, we're, we're, we're full of flaws. We're not perfect, but that's also makes it really beautiful. Right. Yeah. For, we have flaws, we're all different shapes and sizes and color. And that's great. Um, and we go throughout life and crooked lines. And at some point we get to the other side, just everybody has their own journey to take. So, um, so that would be my advice to anyone.
[00:48:03] And I mean, I think this is applicable to anyone, not just women, but I think that for, for, for young women, uh, that so much expectation is being placed on them. Um, and there is a lot of pressure. I always say, I don't think anybody would have hired me. If, um, when I, when I look at today, what's expected of people, I don't, I mean, I had fun in high school. I had fun in high school. I, uh, you know, I wasn't worrying about my SATs and stuff like that. Right. It was like, I'm going to have fun. And then, yeah, we'll worry about college. Right. And I know, I know it's changed.
[00:48:33] It's, it's super pressure. Right. Um, colleges are a lot more expensive than they were back in my day. Um, so I, I, I, I recognize that. Yeah. Um, well, certainly as you think about the next bend in your crooked line, as you rewire, um, I'll leave you with this. As you're thinking about digital literacy develops and if the DSI can be in any way useful, a
[00:49:00] thought partner of anything, it's something that, you know, I know Lauren and I personally, but also, uh, the DSI as a whole shares, um, uh, a passion for that project and the making it as ecumenical and, and as openly adopted as possible. And so anyway, we're just, Hey, love to have you back anytime to talk about it whenever you feel like it. But Angela, you should write a book and I will totally read it.
[00:49:29] So just throwing that out there. Oh, thank you. No, thank you. No, and I certainly will take you up on your offer. Cause again, look, this, this whole podcast, right. Leads down to a possibly a very different direction. And so absolutely. I will take you up on your offer. And for those who are also listening, you know, what I may have said may resonate with some may not resonate others. It's okay, but Hey, let's have that discussion. Let's continue the conversation because conversation is derivative is to make change happen.
[00:49:59] So we've had this great conversation. Yes. So let's make change happen. And it's, and it's people grassroots that make stuff happen. Yeah. I love big, big believer of that. Angela, we are so grateful. Lauren, I'll let you say it too. Like, yeah, thank you so much. This was such a great conversation. Just you sharing your perspective and your insight and what you've learned and just thank you for your time. We really appreciate it. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I really enjoyed it.
[00:50:26] Thanks again to Angela for her contributions to our industry and for sharing her wisdom with us. There's more of that kind of thinking when you join the DSI community at the Digital Shelf Summit in April in New Orleans. Details at digitalshelfsummit.com. Thanks for being part of our community.