[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age.
[00:00:16] Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute.
[00:00:19] Product innovation has been around for centuries, ever since cave dwellers invented the first club to make dinner time easier.
[00:00:27] In this new commerce era, however, with digital upstarts, algorithms, influencers, and other disruptors of consideration sets and shopping journeys, product innovation must change as well.
[00:00:40] Ash McMullen, Head of Ecommerce at Advantice Health, works with internal and external partners every day to redefine how product innovation is executed,
[00:00:50] starting with an understanding of audience and content that inspires the product, not the other way around.
[00:00:57] She joined Lauren Levak-Gilbert and me to unpack this vital process transformation.
[00:01:02] Ash McMullen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We are super grateful.
[00:01:07] Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:01:09] And one of the reasons I'm delighted to have you here is that, you know, what you do is so much focused on product innovation.
[00:01:16] And remarkably, we actually don't talk about that much on the podcast.
[00:01:20] We're sort of so focused on the vagaries of the Digital Shelf.
[00:01:26] We don't really focus on that beginning part that is so critical to everything that's happening.
[00:01:30] And so, you know, you coming up with that brand strategy to differentiate, expand your portfolio, it's fed by the data and insights that you get from reviews and social listening.
[00:01:41] So with that focus on innovation, we would love to know about your background and kind of why that piece of it is so important and fascinating to you.
[00:01:51] Yeah. So kind of to back like way up, I've been in the e-commerce space for over 15 years.
[00:01:58] So it's like, I've kind of, and we all kind of got into it by accident, right?
[00:02:04] Like it wasn't 100%.
[00:02:05] Yeah.
[00:02:07] I know I was in the hospitality industry and my, my dad was, had distributorships, physical beauty supply distributorships when I was growing up.
[00:02:15] And he made the jump from physical to digital and he needed help scaling this business on Amazon.
[00:02:23] And I was like, yeah, I'll trade coming home from 2 a.m. for working from home back in like 2009.
[00:02:31] Oh my God. That's amazing.
[00:02:34] Yeah.
[00:02:35] Oh, and before, yeah.
[00:02:37] Before Amazon ads, like I was repricing things manually.
[00:02:42] Like it was.
[00:02:43] Did he pay you?
[00:02:44] Oh yeah.
[00:02:46] Yeah.
[00:02:46] Well, there's at least that.
[00:02:47] I got to live in Italy while I was doing it.
[00:02:50] It was great.
[00:02:50] Oh my God.
[00:02:51] Wow.
[00:02:51] All my dad did was make me work on boats on the weekend.
[00:02:55] He just owned a million boats.
[00:02:56] That was my life.
[00:02:58] I mean, that sounds fun.
[00:03:00] Less than you'd think.
[00:03:03] But yeah, so it was like, it gave me a very interesting lens to kind of see everything through of like,
[00:03:09] you know, going from when you could scroll on a couple of pages through the entire Amazon catalog,
[00:03:16] most of which was books back then anyway.
[00:03:18] And it was like, and then they opened it to beauty.
[00:03:20] And then seeing kind of like what works and what doesn't.
[00:03:26] And then kind of fast forward to today and knowing things like 80% of conversions happen on a mobile device.
[00:03:36] And thinking of it through this lens of like, let's take a step back.
[00:03:43] And what is this going to look like when we put it there versus, oh, here's this product.
[00:03:49] Make a strategy around it.
[00:03:51] Let's make the strategy from the beginning, from before we even create the product kind of thing.
[00:03:59] So kind of like taking all these different pieces of learnings from, you know, back when like A plus didn't even exist.
[00:04:07] And like you have all this real estate now that you can take up.
[00:04:11] And how are you going to utilize that?
[00:04:14] How is it going to speak to the product?
[00:04:16] What are people even looking for?
[00:04:18] You know, it's.
[00:04:19] So that process is beginning as you think about the innovation itself.
[00:04:24] Like what, what would the, what would the experience of it be?
[00:04:29] Not just in the use of the product, but in the introduction, the shopping for it.
[00:04:34] That's very cool.
[00:04:35] Yeah.
[00:04:36] Cause it's like, if you think about the physical shelf, it was, it was more driven by like, where's the white space and consumer insights from the traditional standpoint.
[00:04:46] Where digital is more like search frequency volume.
[00:04:52] Like what are people even looking for?
[00:04:54] How many products satisfy that search?
[00:04:57] And.
[00:04:58] How are they looking for it?
[00:04:59] Exactly.
[00:05:00] Exactly.
[00:05:01] So it's, it's redefining.
[00:05:04] How to identify the white space for the digital shelf and like taking that insight and saying, okay, there, you know, if people are searching for.
[00:05:16] Oh, I got to think of a good example, like.
[00:05:20] You know, a retractable leash for a dog.
[00:05:23] I'm going to go outside my category for a minute.
[00:05:26] But if say there wasn't one and, or like a lightweight one, cause I know the ones that I have are just so heavy.
[00:05:34] I don't even use them because if you drop them, it's like, it's like.
[00:05:38] There's the dog.
[00:05:39] Yeah.
[00:05:40] And so, you know, if, if so many people are searching for this, but there's only eight to 10 products that satisfy it.
[00:05:51] And none of them are really what they're looking for.
[00:05:53] Like it's a new way to identify a white space versus the traditional means of like, just doing like the traditional consumer insights and surveys.
[00:06:03] So, you know, what you're talking about, Ash, is, is really fascinating and you're doing it at the company you're at now, Advantis.
[00:06:11] So can you tell us a little bit about your role and sort of how it works within, within the company's org?
[00:06:18] Yeah, definitely.
[00:06:19] So Advantis Health, and I always kind of laugh when I'm at conferences because it's like, you've never heard of it.
[00:06:25] It's fine.
[00:06:26] It's totally fine.
[00:06:27] I just hope that you've heard of at least like one or two of our brands.
[00:06:30] Um, we're a private equity owned house of brands and we're in the CPG category and, um, we focus on skin health.
[00:06:40] So our brands are M-Lactin therapeutic body lotion with lactic acid.
[00:06:46] We have triple paste diaper rash cream, which is a really fun, like disruptor in the baby category.
[00:06:51] Um, Carousel is the super sexy brand that makes fungal nail patches and fungal nail renewal products.
[00:06:59] Um, and, and it's this like legacy market leader in the foot care category.
[00:07:04] Um, and then we have brands in first aid category, like Dermoplast, New Skin, Liquid Bandage that a lot of people have heard of.
[00:07:11] And, um, Domeboro.
[00:07:13] So we, we live in a couple of different places on, on the shelves, if you will.
[00:07:21] And, and each brand has their own, um, persona and different kind of growth trajectory and, and path forward.
[00:07:31] Like Carousel is more of a legacy brand.
[00:07:33] It's a market leader.
[00:07:33] So that has a different path forward than M-Lactin that is more of a, we're like in the middle of being disrupted and disrupting at the same time.
[00:07:46] Cause like body lotion is so, it's such an interesting category cause it's growing, but it's like everyone is, is around like two to 3% market share.
[00:07:57] And then like CeraVe is at the behemoth at the top and, and it's just all of us like, oh, let's, you know, how do we break through the noise?
[00:08:05] Yeah.
[00:08:06] So, um, and then triple paste is this like wonderfully like super efficacious, great diaper cream product that has, has been a really like fun brand to work on.
[00:08:20] We had a, um, celebrity Derm pick it up in the beginning of this year and use it as face basting.
[00:08:26] And used it as a barrier repair cream on our skin at night.
[00:08:31] Um, kind of like the idea of a deep conditioner in your hair.
[00:08:33] So, but for your face and we had this great viral moment where triple paste was searched more frequently than diaper cream.
[00:08:43] So our branded terms like surpassed our category terms, which were great.
[00:08:47] Right. So, you know, that prompted an, in a different, an interesting, like innovation story of like kind of where, where do we take this and what would that look like?
[00:08:56] So, um, all of these like three brands have very different innovation conversations.
[00:09:03] And, and as we break that down, it kind of just, it's not a one size fits all.
[00:09:09] It's not like a, here's a playbook that will just work, just follow steps one through five.
[00:09:14] It's very much a collective of the different, um, different brains that are involved in the business and then different brains like behind the brands.
[00:09:24] So, and that kind of collective ladder up to, to the greater goal.
[00:09:29] Well, first Ash, we need to have a side note after this about what face basting is, because I would like to learn.
[00:09:34] And I feel like this is a trend I need to know about.
[00:09:36] Uh, and is it, I'm sorry, is it pasting or basting?
[00:09:41] So it's technically basting is how it was came about.
[00:09:47] Yes.
[00:09:47] Okay.
[00:09:48] Um, but I like face pasting.
[00:09:51] That's kind of just.
[00:09:52] Well, that'll be your next product.
[00:09:54] Yes.
[00:09:55] Paste your face.
[00:09:57] Yep.
[00:09:58] Oh my gosh.
[00:09:59] Well, Ash, speaking of the brains that need to be involved in order to get this to happen and to think about these new innovative products.
[00:10:05] So who are the people and the functions in your organization that you talk to when you think about innovation and you're moving that forward?
[00:10:16] So first and foremost, our VP of innovation.
[00:10:19] He's a very integral part of that.
[00:10:22] And the idea and the, the composition and insights and like the wizard, if you will, behind the curtain of that.
[00:10:28] Does he sit, sorry to interrupt Ash, does he sit in sales or marketing?
[00:10:32] Like where does the VP of innovation sit?
[00:10:34] He sits in marketing.
[00:10:35] Okay.
[00:10:36] So yeah, most of us sit in marketing and marketing partners very closely with sales.
[00:10:42] So it's, um, like when we're in office every month, like we always have like a sales and marketing team huddle.
[00:10:50] And, and on a weekly basis, we have like our marketing team huddle, but sales is a very, very, um, strong part of our team.
[00:10:58] And so innovation sits directly in marketing.
[00:11:02] And then I sit also, um, as e-com in marketing.
[00:11:07] So we're all, um, you know, the bandit team, like we, we have all the fun, but, you know, we, we include finance in some of the fun so they can like partake in it.
[00:11:21] But, you know, it's quick teaser.
[00:11:23] Ash is speaking at DSS 2025 and bringing her VP of finance.
[00:11:27] And it's a great conversation about e-commerce.
[00:11:29] So make sure you save the date April 7th for the night.
[00:11:32] Sorry.
[00:11:32] Digital shelf summit.com.
[00:11:34] Just adding that.
[00:11:35] Yes.
[00:11:36] Sorry, Ash, I interrupted you twice.
[00:11:37] No, please continue.
[00:11:39] No, it's fine.
[00:11:40] He's super excited.
[00:11:41] So, um, I am too.
[00:11:44] So, um, so yeah, we have our VP, VP of innovation.
[00:11:50] Um, myself, our, our CMO and our CEO are kind of like they're, um, I have to give them shout outs because they're fantastic women in leadership.
[00:11:59] And it's been a great experience for me from like a professional development standpoint to work for two women in leadership.
[00:12:06] And it's, um, it's, they have, they create a great culture in our company.
[00:12:12] So, um, and then, so yeah, like they're involved in the all around big picture of how everything will play together and, um, long-term brand health and, and company goals and things like that.
[00:12:22] And then, and the different like heads of the different brands.
[00:12:26] So, um, you know, from the product portfolio standpoint, from the voice of the brand, from the social aspect of it and, you know, how will this interact with our influencer base, et cetera, is a big part of it.
[00:12:41] Um, and then our sales team is also a part of it with like the partnerships when it comes to retail buyers and what they're looking for and how our strategy around growth and like that omni channel of like Walmart target drug.
[00:12:55] What that looks like, which is very different from the Amazon part of it.
[00:13:00] So, and then a part of it is like, how do those two interact with each other?
[00:13:05] Um, and then of course finance, like, is it profitable and supply chain and operations of how do we bring this to life?
[00:13:13] And they do all the tough behind the scenes stuff that, um, you know, we really don't talk about like the logistics and where everything comes from and how it gets manufactured and put all together.
[00:13:25] So it's the back office miracle workers.
[00:13:29] Yes.
[00:13:30] Yes.
[00:13:30] Uh, so Ash, I do have a question because I think when we say innovation, people can interpret that as different things.
[00:13:38] So I do want to clarify when we're saying innovation, we mean, and I I'm using this as a personal example because it's just something that I am familiar with.
[00:13:45] So like Listerine was a brand that we had.
[00:13:47] And so it's a liquid, right?
[00:13:49] And you can swish it in your mouth, but a new innovation was the strips that you can put on your tongue.
[00:13:53] And then another new innovation was the tabs that you can chew.
[00:13:56] And that's a new product innovation delivering the same type of product to the consumer.
[00:14:02] Is that how you would also define innovation?
[00:14:04] Or do you have a different kind of lens?
[00:14:06] I just want to make sure brands are understanding what we're talking about when we say it.
[00:14:10] Yes.
[00:14:10] So, you know, one of our like examples that I'll give in that realm was like our carousel fungal nail renewal liquid was, is in a tube and it has this little like exactor thing that you put on the nail.
[00:14:22] And our innovation two years ago was a fungal nail patch.
[00:14:29] So we turned it into something that was more similar to like a band-aid, but it had the ingredients in the, in the pad that's in there.
[00:14:38] So that was like our, our carousel innovation of that time.
[00:14:44] The build that I would, um, add to, to that with is it can also be like a completely new product.
[00:14:54] That's maybe in an adjacent category or a separate category.
[00:14:58] That's more just taking the brand from where it is now and, and giving it a whole new course trajectory.
[00:15:06] Let me ask you, Ash, you know, you've obviously been in this biz for a while and you've experienced product innovation as a practice at other places.
[00:15:17] I'm wondering what is the difference now in terms of how you think about it and what of that is driven by the culture and, and the approach of where you're at or, and what is driven by.
[00:15:35] How, how much e-commerce and Omnichannel and COVID, like all those things.
[00:15:41] Can you just sort of tease that out a little bit to me, like this way that you work?
[00:15:46] Yeah.
[00:15:47] So I would say like, even when, when I started at Advantis, like how we do things today is completely different than how we did things two years ago, even one year ago.
[00:15:57] Um, so how we did things like 15 years ago, it's even like, um, that was more, you know, what are we missing in the skincare line that we have?
[00:16:10] And let's just create one.
[00:16:13] There's, there's a lot more science and art behind it now.
[00:16:16] Um, so one of the biggest changes is, and this wasn't like a very, it, this took a little while for it to like kind of catch on within the companies.
[00:16:32] It was, it's, it's, it's challenging to kind of totally shift how you've done something natively for, for years.
[00:16:40] And e-commerce is still generally speaking, like relatively new and, and it's not this universal knowledge that everyone just innately has.
[00:16:55] And kind of, and not just like spoiler alert for the summit next year, but like part of the success of these types of things comes from language and communication and really developing that within the organization and developing that culture that embraces it.
[00:17:16] And, and, and this is another like kudos to our executive leadership.
[00:17:21] They're very, very open-minded and very accepting and welcoming of new concepts and thinking about, you know, this is how we do it today, which generally speaking means that we shouldn't do it tomorrow kind of thing.
[00:17:39] So that's how fast the world is changing.
[00:17:42] Like, yes, yes, yes.
[00:17:44] Um, so, you know, having, having that foundational culture is very, very helpful and then kind of embracing that and building upon it to, and educating, but in like a very, um, simple way of like, you know, this is analogies help of like the physical, the digital shelf version of this is like the physical shelf, like, um, like sponsored ad searches.
[00:18:13] Like every time someone hits search is basically like a physical shelf reset in the digital sense.
[00:18:21] So that's kind of like how we, how we, um, spoke about like the auction of that keyword search.
[00:18:29] It's just think of it like a reset, whereas physical shelf, it only happens like once a year.
[00:18:33] And, but on the digital second.
[00:18:36] Yes, exactly.
[00:18:36] Um, so, and then like another big major difference is kind of how we treat retailers.
[00:18:45] So, or retailer customers, target is different than Walmart is different than Amazon.
[00:18:51] So product differentiation and assortment is so critical.
[00:18:56] And, and the challenge that we have now is like our current portfolio.
[00:19:04] We have specific star products that are at target.
[00:19:09] They're at Walmart and they're on Amazon.
[00:19:12] And when things like tentpole events roll around, it's like, you got to put those products in, but it's only, it's going to be two days of discount.
[00:19:20] And let's hope that like, you know, pricing just kind of magically goes back to the way it was two days ago.
[00:19:27] So, so to avoid those, like, you know, conversations that happen that are not the most fun versus like talking about the results of yay, look.
[00:19:37] Um, but so kind of like positioning that and saying, okay, so moving forward when we're creating like our next star product, it's going to be different for Amazon.
[00:19:48] It's going to be different for Walmart.
[00:19:49] It's going to be different for target and really getting that, um, holistic buy-in from the entire team is critical to the success of that.
[00:20:00] And, and yes, it takes, you know, consideration of complexity because, and that's why supply chain is a huge part of that conversation.
[00:20:08] Cause it's, you know, we're talking about three SKUs that are generally kind of the same, but they're all a little bit different.
[00:20:14] So how do we manage that from a resourcing perspective and also position it where this is, this will be successful on all three platforms and, and be worth it for us and achieve that goal that we're, we're going for.
[00:20:32] So, um, yeah, that's a, thank you for that.
[00:20:35] That was a really sort of fascinating journey through the, the, this revolution of, of how we need to approach the consumer and your partnerships in a completely new way.
[00:20:47] And I'd love to dig into that a little bit more because working with retailers, it's, it seems, um, in the best, like, just like you talked about in the, in the best version of it, you are developing innovation in tandem with a retailer.
[00:21:03] And it seems like more and more, uh, digital and e-commerce is becoming kind of the proving ground, testing ground, learning ground for, uh, for innovation.
[00:21:14] And, and then growth happens from there.
[00:21:16] And I'm just wondering if you'd sort of walk us through those relationships with your key retailers and what that looks like in this, this era.
[00:21:23] Yeah, totally.
[00:21:24] So ever again, everything's a little bit different.
[00:21:27] So, um, you know, when it comes down to it, Target and Walmart are looking at something different than, than Amazon is, um, Target and Walmart want learnings from your D to C site or a TikTok shop.
[00:21:46] And the external traffic that is happening, not on a marketplace, so to speak, that they're competing with.
[00:21:56] So they don't want to like necessarily the data from, from Amazon sales, cause they're already competing with Amazon and they're, they're competing as a marketplace on a macro level.
[00:22:07] So they want that incremental traffic that brands are bringing in, um, and they're bringing shoppers to the category.
[00:22:16] And so when we're looking at, um, when we're working with Target, it's right now it's about like minis and, and that mini bin.
[00:22:27] And how do we like create drive and, um, and traction there as a potential for physical, physical shelf placement.
[00:22:36] Um, Walmart, we're doing a lot of exploration with like walmart.com first to build velocities, then gain placement at the shelf.
[00:22:47] Um, and then our sales team just does a really great job of partnering with the buyers because they're the ones that are giving us like the, the store insights and what they specifically are looking for.
[00:23:00] And like that information is gold when developing innovation and that is totally different than Amazon.
[00:23:07] So like, again, kind of goes to that, like we need product differentiation and getting that, um, that buy in there.
[00:23:14] And then the other piece of that is our tools.
[00:23:18] So like tools are so meaningful in this equation.
[00:23:22] Um, we use stack line on our side to look at category dynamics and competitive insights that we can use to inform certain decisions, like based on those category dynamics.
[00:23:35] So is there like, is there a subcategory that's growing?
[00:23:38] Is there one that's declining?
[00:23:40] Is there one that, um, you know, there's increased traffic to that we want to play in the space of what does it look like from an investment standpoint?
[00:23:48] Like how, how expensive would it be to break in, et cetera.
[00:23:52] So those are really help a lot because it takes you out of that black box where you're like, I think this will work.
[00:24:01] You know, people are searching for it and it looks like there's not a lot of product there, but, um, but understanding like the competitive dynamics and the category dynamics are also super helpful.
[00:24:12] Um, and then just looking at things that, um, taking that a step further of like optimizations for, for mobile, like what are those graphics going to look like?
[00:24:27] And, and using those, like the different insights from, you know, what someone's searching for or what is the buyer speaking about that people are searching for in the category.
[00:24:38] So how can we bring that to life on the packaging to make that stand out?
[00:24:44] So Ash, how do you balance though new innovation with your existing portfolio?
[00:24:49] Because to your point, you need to have a different assortment across your retailers, right?
[00:24:53] So that you can't have price matching, but you also need to focus on the core and it also is more expensive, right?
[00:25:00] In the long run to create new products and it requires new marketing and new messaging.
[00:25:05] So how do you kind of strike that balance?
[00:25:08] Yeah.
[00:25:09] So this is a fun challenge.
[00:25:11] Um, and I say fun, like very endearingly because it's one that like, we kind of know.
[00:25:18] So a little bit of like how to handle it's like, it's not like the, the other crisis management that like when something happens, it's never happened before.
[00:25:26] And you're like, all right, let's just figure it out.
[00:25:28] This is what we do.
[00:25:29] Half of what we do is just problem solving and getting stuff done.
[00:25:34] Um, so the product assortment piece of like the balancing act is, um, as much as like innovation is great, skew rationalization is equally as important.
[00:25:47] So we're not going to pile on more products that we believe will be successful onto products that are more, um, that suck up like valuable time and resources.
[00:26:02] So we have a couple of products that were launched like four years ago now.
[00:26:10] Um, and they were done as like tests as, as differentiation tests.
[00:26:17] So we have one that's, um, we have a multi-purpose nail repair liquid and we have made bundles with like, um, actual like manual files.
[00:26:30] And then we had done a test with an electric filer and the, the value prop of the pricing on the electric filer is just not there.
[00:26:42] You know, everyone's just like, they're going to buy the liquid and plus an electric filer, like you buy it once.
[00:26:48] It's not something that you repeat purchase.
[00:26:50] So it was, it was a, it was a good test.
[00:26:52] It was like, okay, we'll see, you know, how we can differentiate these products and kind of like try to pull away from being the same that's at the physical shelf.
[00:27:00] And, and, and that's something that we'll rationalize out.
[00:27:05] We'll, we'll phase it out and, and get, um, and make room for, for new innovation.
[00:27:11] And so weeding out items that are not part of your, like, it's kind of like the, um, the 80, 20 rule.
[00:27:22] So it's, it's just an updated version of that.
[00:27:26] So, um, that's really, really important.
[00:27:29] And, um, when we're looking at things like price is also super important when trying to find this balance of, of new.
[00:27:41] So if we're upsizing a product, that's going to be something that's going to be available on, on Amazon versus something that we would put on Walmart.
[00:27:51] Walmart is very much more EDLP, everyday low price, um, conscious.
[00:27:58] So, um, it might be a smaller pack size, but, um, that piece of it is very important when, when striking that balance.
[00:28:13] Cause we also don't want to create something that, um, brings the value down of anything that we have currently.
[00:28:21] So, you know, even when we're rationalizing, we're not going to blow it out at a really low price on, on Amazon and compromise the, the product.
[00:28:31] That is the, like native star product that it's a version of.
[00:28:35] So being really mindful about that and kind of where, um, what we do with it and what happens to it and kind of maintaining the, the integrity of the brand and not letting it wind up in like the gray market where we're in like discounting, like 3P diversion, um, territory.
[00:28:56] Well, Ash, that was actually going to be one of my questions because I think there can be sometimes a negative reaction internally from the brand for new innovation because they feel that it's competitive to the products that they already have.
[00:29:08] And also you might be metriced against a product that is a core set.
[00:29:14] And then this new innovation comes out and you can't control the fact that that's driving more sales to that as a, as a brand versus where you started.
[00:29:24] So can you talk about that dynamic, especially when it comes to like the human element of that?
[00:29:29] Because I think with innovation, that can be challenging for brand teams and e-commerce teams who are trying to make everybody win, uh, but your metric differently internally.
[00:29:40] Yeah.
[00:29:40] So incrementality, that.
[00:29:43] The big guy, that elusive word.
[00:29:46] Um, so I have a good example of this.
[00:29:49] Um, dermaplast is, um,
[00:29:54] very well known among new moms as after birth in typically in the hospital, you're handed a blue can that, um,
[00:30:04] is, it says dermaplast like pain, burn and itch.
[00:30:08] And everyone knows it as dermaplast blue can.
[00:30:11] And the primary off-label use case is a postpartum spray.
[00:30:18] And Walmart had a big initiative to create a mother's health section.
[00:30:24] And it's a relatively new category, but it's all these things that you need, but are all in all different places in the store.
[00:30:31] And so mom, this new mom's health placement brought everything together.
[00:30:38] And instead of putting blue can in that set, we created a specific postpartum spray skew.
[00:30:49] And Walmart had the exclusive on it for the first year and it did great.
[00:30:54] Meanwhile, like there was slight cannibalization with like the blue can in first aid, but not,
[00:31:00] not a terrible amount.
[00:31:02] Um, there was still more incrementality than there was cannibalization, um, from the analysis that,
[00:31:09] um, the head of dermaplast did.
[00:31:11] So then came the question of, oh, do we launch this on Amazon?
[00:31:17] And this is where that intersection of physical, digital, incrementality and, and, and conversation and decision-making like comes into play.
[00:31:29] And while the cannibalization at the physical shelf was not very big, the digital shelf would have been much different.
[00:31:42] So we did an analysis of like the keywords and the conversion and like everything that, you know, drove this, this product.
[00:31:49] And the primary search case is postpartum spray.
[00:31:54] And if we put it in a different category and it had no reviews and we're not going to vary it.
[00:32:02] And we're going to try to create legs on this product that everyone kind of knows the off case use anyway.
[00:32:14] We really didn't come to a conclusion where it made sense to put it on Amazon, where we weren't going to like not see cannibalization.
[00:32:25] Like the cannibalization after the analysis we did was like, oh no.
[00:32:28] And, and now like the other knock on benefit is like, well, Walmart gets to keep an exclusive essentially.
[00:32:37] So it's, that became like a win-win of just like, um, discipline, I would say.
[00:32:45] Like in us not being like, okay, we don't need to launch everything on Amazon.
[00:32:50] And, and we can strike that balance of like what works best for the product, the brand and the company.
[00:32:57] So I love that use of, I mean, not surprising that you're using data to help drive these things, but, but that data can be helpful when the gut is like, sell, sell, sell.
[00:33:08] You know, like the saying is great, let's go.
[00:33:10] But, and I, and I love the, the, you know, the discipline, as you said, the discipline of that I think is, is super fascinating.
[00:33:17] Well, Ash, to, to close out, I was wondering, I, when you think about how you're evolving your process for the future and, you know, how you, you know, find the, because so much is changing about the shopper's journey and them being in charge and, and, and how that leads into the innovation that happens way back at the start.
[00:33:46] Like what, what, what stands out to you is kind of the way you've been sort of driving that change, that sort of future.
[00:33:55] Um, the biggest part is kind of where we start in that, in that journey.
[00:34:02] Um, and it's interesting.
[00:34:05] I was at, um, an educational, like future leadership program that our sales and logistics partner Emerson group puts on in partnership with Harvard business school.
[00:34:17] And it was exciting.
[00:34:18] Cause I was like, Oh, I can say I went to Harvard, even though it was only for two days, but you have a sweatshirt.
[00:34:24] Got a sweatshirt.
[00:34:25] Good for you.
[00:34:26] Um, but it was interesting cause the professors teach for the future.
[00:34:35] They don't teach about today.
[00:34:37] Cause again, today's obsolete and tomorrow will be different.
[00:34:41] So they take it out years ahead and it's almost like they're teaching in the form of a strategic growth plan.
[00:34:48] And, and where is it going?
[00:34:51] And it was a lot about indicators and the, um, the best nugget that like I took away from that is that audience and content come before product.
[00:35:04] And also that eyes move before revenue.
[00:35:10] So taking those.
[00:35:12] Can you say that?
[00:35:12] Can you say that again?
[00:35:13] Yeah.
[00:35:14] So audience and content come before product.
[00:35:20] So the who, and the sort of experience of it.
[00:35:23] Yes.
[00:35:23] Come before the actual thing you're going to make.
[00:35:26] Yes.
[00:35:27] Okay.
[00:35:27] Similar to like, how do you define white space?
[00:35:29] Like where are, where are they going?
[00:35:32] And then the other piece is like that eyeballs move before revenue.
[00:35:36] So getting attention.
[00:35:38] Yeah.
[00:35:39] Yeah.
[00:35:40] People are going to learn it, look at it, understand it, then buy it if they want to.
[00:35:47] So it's like, it's this concept of understanding who you're making this for and how it's going to look and be ingested, absorbed and viewed prior to creating it.
[00:36:02] And, and building it around the knowledge that you get from, from the audience and the, and the content that you're going to think about it.
[00:36:11] So coming back to this process is, I was thinking like, okay, how do we, how do we, how would we apply that?
[00:36:19] And it kind of comes back to like, just the overall like design.
[00:36:25] If we want to think of it that way of like, how is that going to impact the content?
[00:36:30] Like, let's think about what kind of content, this product, if we made it in this way, in this format, in this packaging, what is the content that we're going to create around it look like?
[00:36:44] Is it going to be easily held?
[00:36:46] What's the video going to look like?
[00:36:47] Is it going to, is the label going to be super visible if we position it this way?
[00:36:53] Is that going to be something that's going to add, you know, production time that we're going to have to keep like being mindful of how, how we're positioning it?
[00:37:03] How is it going to be used?
[00:37:06] How is it going to be, you know, if it falls on the floor, like what's going to happen to it?
[00:37:10] If it's shipped in a padded envelope, is it going to arrive smushed or totally intact?
[00:37:14] Like, you know, we're going to, I'm kind of on another soapbox to eliminate cardboard boxes around products.
[00:37:20] Cause it looks like roadkill when it arrives, even though it's totally intact in the box, but the customer experience when you open it is like, yeah.
[00:37:32] So that's a big, big piece of it is like, really like, where do you begin?
[00:37:38] And, and what data are you taking to that beginning point?
[00:37:43] And how is that dictating like your next steps?
[00:37:47] Yeah.
[00:37:47] And what will be your right to win in that environment?
[00:37:51] And I love that you're teasing those out earlier before you make the sort of the go, no go decision or what, because, oh my gosh, that's so fascinating.
[00:38:00] Yeah.
[00:38:01] Yeah.
[00:38:01] Cause it's way easier to build a marketing strategy around a product that you're building for the specific strategy versus like, oh, we have this product.
[00:38:10] How should we?
[00:38:11] Yeah.
[00:38:12] To fix something that's broken.
[00:38:14] Yeah.
[00:38:15] Oh my gosh.
[00:38:16] I love that.
[00:38:17] Well, Ash, thank you so much for just unpacking all of this or the, what really you're in the, right in the middle of, which is how do we adapt to this sort of.
[00:38:29] Um, we've, I've been thinking about sort of football as a game of inches and now commerce as a game of niches.
[00:38:36] It's like.
[00:38:37] I like that.
[00:38:38] That where the growth is going to come from is going to be, it seems like increasingly more down to these niches.
[00:38:46] And it doesn't mean you can't use the same product to cover a bunch of niches, but you have to sort of, um, really dial it in.
[00:38:53] And it's going to increasingly become like that.
[00:38:55] And I, I love the way you're, the way you're thinking about innovation in that new environment.
[00:39:01] So thank you so much for the generosity of sharing it with us.
[00:39:04] So we really appreciate it.
[00:39:06] Yeah.
[00:39:06] My pleasure.
[00:39:07] It was awesome to talk to you guys.
[00:39:09] Thank you, Lauren.
[00:39:10] Thanks, Peter.
[00:39:12] Thanks again to Ash for all the insights.
[00:39:14] As we mentioned, the 2025 Digital Shelf Summit next April is open for registration.
[00:39:20] Check out all the details at digitalshelfsummit.com.
[00:39:24] Thanks for being part of our community.
[00:39:26] Thank you.