[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where industry leaders share insights, strategies, and stories to help brands win in the ever-changing world of commerce.
[00:00:22] Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. As always, with the three-legged stool of people, process, and technology, it's the tech that gets all the buzz, while it's getting the other two legs right that really determines success or failure.
[00:00:35] Jo Lambadjieva, Founder and CEO of Amazing Wave and author of the AI and Ecommerce Newsletter, invests all of her energy in helping ecommerce brands focus on enabling people to transform their processes using the right AI tooling for the job. She shares her advice four times a week with 70,000 newsletter readers, and now with all of you. Jo, welcome to the podcast. We are so looking forward to diving in with you.
[00:01:04] Thank you so much for having me. I was really excited for this one. I was like, oh my God, we're going to talk about so many good things today. Yes, and a lot of that is because you really spend so much of your day talking about AI with the folks that's focused on the e-commerce of AI, which is so great. And through that work, you help them get up to speed on how to think about using it as well as staying up to date on changes.
[00:01:30] Like, it's all so fluid and so fast that just having outside resources can be so important. So, first of all, how did you get into this? And how do you spend your time every day? Yeah, 100%. So, I have been in digital e-commerce for about 14 years. I went through a variety of roles from sort of like strategic advisor for performance marketing, for D2C, to kind of diving deep into the Amazon world.
[00:01:59] And so, from all of this experience, I've realized in the end of 2022 and the beginning of 2023 when ChatGPT came out that, wow, AI can be so powerful to help with like so many aspects of e-commerce. And so, I am a little bit of a, I would like definitely admit I'm a little bit of a geek.
[00:02:24] And so, the first thing that happened when I discovered ChatGPT was, okay, how can I use this to make my team's life easier? And I started kind of reverse engineering what this can or like what our problems were and how ChatGPT can be applied in those. And so, from that process of very much like self-iteration, I realized, okay, this is really powerful.
[00:02:49] And I set to myself the goal of I need to learn everything I can about this. And so, for the last more than three years, all I have been doing is living, breathing AI specifically in the space of e-commerce. I started my newsletter, AI for e-commerce, about two and a half years ago. And now it's read by more than 70,000 people. And you should subscribe if you're listening. A huge plug because I know you won't do it, but I will do it. It is fantastic.
[00:03:19] Subscribe to the newsletter. Sorry, go ahead. Thank you so much, Laura. No, I really appreciate it. Yeah, I think. And so, just for me, it's been always kind of like very much a self-iterative process. Like, you know, my approach to using AI and learning about AI has been always from the point of view of what are the teams and my problems in e-commerce? And how can I apply AI? How can I reverse engineer this? And so, I write about this in the newsletter.
[00:03:49] And that's what I basically help brands with is like train teams, build these processes, and sort of like solve real business issues through the lens of AI. And so, you're working with brands day in and day out, Jo. And I'm curious, like, how are you suggesting brands approach AI or think about it? Because it's a big change. It's not their normal way of thinking, right? And it's easy to kind of get stuck in, oh, well, this is the old way that we've done it.
[00:04:16] So, how are you helping them kind of change their mindset about it? Yeah, 100%. Like, I think we are in a really interesting inflection in time. It's like a lot of the old processes and ways of things or ways we've done things have to be destroyed. They have to be disrupted. I know that sounds really like a mega announcement. But even just what happened last week with Amazon announcing Alexa for shopping.
[00:04:44] Like, you know, it just shows that even the big guys are there to self-disrupt themselves because they know that this big shift is coming. And so, I think the first thing that I think both people and brands and basically anyone working in e-commerce should start thinking about is using AI as a thinking partner rather than replacement for thinking.
[00:05:08] Now, this is, I know it sounds probably simple, but it's a really fundamental shift in how you approach using AI. And I think, you know, a lot of companies are trying to onboard tools that are solving an issue. But what I see happening with people adopting these tools is they are not necessarily using them as kind of like a help,
[00:05:31] but like rather as something that they just diverge work to without the necessary oversight in terms of quality. And therefore, you get subpar quality that a lot of people think is done. And then you figure out it actually is, you know, just mediocre. And so, a sort of a wave of issues happen. And so, the first thing that I would say is that people should really think about how they use these tools, what they use the tools for.
[00:06:00] And then from that point is like building kind of an entire sort of like, let's say, knowledge basis of like, you know, context of, you know, how they do processes of what good looks like. And then using AI with that context to get better outputs.
[00:06:21] Do you have any examples of a brand that's kind of done that well or really shifted their mindset from not using AI or using it in the wrong way to using it in the right way? Yeah, 100%. So, actually, about a year ago, I had the awesome occasion to be on a podcast with the, I think it was the head of e-commerce at Havaianas. And just the way that they have adopted AI.
[00:06:49] And like, just, it's again, it's all about the mindset. It's not so much about the tooling, but the mindset internally of how to think about processes, how to think about upskilling their teams was just already like that was 2020, early 2025 was like ahead of the curve. So, I think that for me was like one great example. And can you dig into that a little bit, like what was it they were doing that really impressed you so much?
[00:07:18] Because you talk about as thinking partner, and I understand the concept of it, but the actual, how do I put that into action in daily use? Sure. So, I imagine, yeah. So, I think the reality when it comes to really digging deep in terms of what, I guess, like any brands does, and obviously, like I can't, I can't like dig deep specifically for Havaianas, but like what brands do well when they adopt AI is starting from the process.
[00:07:48] And again, like this is very counterintuitive because so much of the conversation that we have right now on LinkedIn and conferences, et cetera, starts with the tool. Like, you know, obviously, we're all very excited about Claude and Claude Cowork and Claude Code, but it's, of course, these are great tools and they allow you to do a lot. But for like businesses, brands and organizations, the first step of like AI adoption comes to what is your process?
[00:08:18] Have you documented your process? Do you understand your process so well that if you like sit down and have to explain it to an intern, you can really break down every single input, every single output, every edge case, like all of the data that needs to be included. And then basically, if you have that, like, can you then translate it into like chunks that AI can process?
[00:08:42] Because if you start thinking about like your usage of AI through this lens of a perfectly explained process, then you've done pretty much 80% of the job. By explaining very well what the process of how you want the job to be done, then any tool will do a very good job because essentially AI, large language models, they thrive on context.
[00:09:07] But that context can only be explained by the person who knows what the context is. Like my context will be different than your context or your context. My company will have different objectives or different how good looks like depending on each edge case and even like in terms of teams.
[00:09:25] So it's basically down to the specific team, the specific individual, the specific team role to sit down, codify this knowledge, this criteria, and then use AI to like help like with the actual implementation, but only from that point of structured knowledge. Yeah, we've been thinking about that a lot.
[00:10:20] And I think about that a lot. I think about that a lot of work with the AI, like providing more and more. I think of, you know, we often talk about sort of the new creative brief. And in a way it's sort of doing a creative brief for your AI, for whatever it is you're trying to accomplish. Yeah. 100%. I think like, again, we are really stepping right now in a really interesting time where work is really a mixture between like human and machine, like input and output.
[00:10:47] I think we need to start thinking about not AI as just a tool that is kind of the last sort of step of the chain, but it's sort of like a partner along the chain. So like, you know, it's about, you know, we talk about human in the loop when you talk about a lot about AI a lot.
[00:11:08] But it's true when we start thinking about an entire process and what is the place of AI and what is the place of human, which is basically overseer, thinker, like creative mind and AI as like, again, a helping thinking buddy or like a creative brainstorm agent or an executor.
[00:11:30] Like, you know, you start building a bit of a picture of like how, like how we should start redefining briefs processes. And to go back to your point, Pete, it is about building like libraries of context. That is part of the process. That is part of like these structured SOPs that you would give to an AI because as much as like, you know, a process is step one, do this, step two, do this.
[00:11:58] Like part of this is basically giving the context of this is who we are and this is what like how what is our special source of doing things like what is our special process. So it's they are totally interconnected.
[00:12:14] And I think it's so important, again, to for all companies to start really thinking in this more structured way of like this wealth of knowledge they have internally and then translating that into like wealth of like data that they can feed to AI to help their processes. And Joe, have you seen any brands update their briefing process or automate it using AI? Because that's something that we've talked about on this podcast several times. It's something I'm very passionate about.
[00:12:44] The brief needs to be updated. It has been like a siloed process for many, many years. So I'm curious if you've seen any brands do that well and it's working. I think, well, here is again the challenges. I feel like with smaller, like smaller brands, smaller teams, it's a much easier process to adopt.
[00:13:09] Like, you know, some of the brands I work with, they're very, very quick to iterate their processes, even like, you know, part of their team structure in order to adapt into this AI age. And obviously, they don't have like many layers of approvals or, you know, let's call it bureaucracy that they have to go through. I think for bigger brands, it's definitely a challenge because obviously there is an established process.
[00:13:36] And this process has worked and served them well probably for a long, long time. But now AI is just so disruptive. And also there's just so much uncertainty, like lack of knowledge, lack of understanding, like fear.
[00:13:54] And so all of these are like ingredients as to why maybe in some of the larger organizations I speak with, the like there is like more of a piecemeal adoption or change versus like, let's say, an entire process or let's say, like an entire team. So I think the, yeah, the size of teams and the maturity of organizations plays a really big role.
[00:14:25] And I think that one of the primary things that has to happen to even get there is that there has to be adoption within the organization. And that's still, I think, a barrier that people are trying to get over or, you know.
[00:14:42] And so I'm wondering, when you look at the brands that are doing this well or when you're working with a brand, like where you focus them in order to drive adoption, what's like the number one thing that comes up or that needs to be instituted to kind of get that engine going?
[00:15:01] I think the number one, I guess the number one thing that I always try to focus the brands I work with is the fact that AI is not a technology problem or AI adoption in the company is not a technology problem. It's a people's problem. It's basically a psychological problem.
[00:15:23] And this is a really challenging thing for a lot of leaders to understand because, you know, I am privy to it. Like, I am really excited about AI. I mean, obviously I am. And, you know, loads of leaders go to conferences. They're like, get all hyped up. They're like, oh my God, AI can do all of these things. I have to like get everyone to do AI all the time, 24-7, everyone AI right now. And I get it. I mean, I feel the same, right?
[00:15:51] But the problem is that when you try to get your team, the wider organization to adopt AI, you then like face so many like psychological challenges. One is the like, there's just so much like at the moment, like mystery around AI. Like loads of people say it can do everything. You can basically press a button and sit on the beach and drink margaritas. Guess what?
[00:16:19] Not quite, not quite a reality. We all wish, don't we? Yeah, I know, right? Maybe at some point, but not right now. And so loads of people feel like they don't necessarily understand what is and isn't possible. Therefore, either you have naysayer or you have like enthusiasts that are not quite getting there. You have like, I think it's a huge thing. Loads of people who feel the pressure to use AI, but they don't know where to start or how to start.
[00:16:48] And they fear that they will look like, you know, unknowledgeable, inexperienced. You know, the common fear we all have. We don't want to be the person that doesn't know the thing in the room. And then I think one of the biggest fears that people like don't necessarily understand how like strong it is, is the fear of replacement. The fear that, you know, the organization is here and they're pressing you to use AI so that at some point, like they'll replace you with AI.
[00:17:16] And so because of all of this and probably a lot of other like human reasons, you know, you have this kind of like pressure, like, you know, these juxtaposition, which is like the leadership and a few like enthusiasts are like, yeah, let's do AI.
[00:17:38] And then the mass of people like the sort of the middle and lower layers of organization are like kind of not sure where to start, not sure what that means for their future. And so there is like a really big kind of like mismatch. And so what I always say to companies is before you start saying this is how you use AI, just first get people to really understand what AI is,
[00:18:06] what AI can and cannot do and like reassure them that this is there to help them to like assist their work rather than replace them. That is so important. Get them to get excited. This is really important. Like, you know, I always in my training camps, I always say like, hey, you know, you guys are scientists or explorers, like, you know, go and build things, break things, like see what is possible.
[00:18:33] And then people get excited because like, you know, they start using AI in like really, really creative ways and they see, okay, it can definitely help me with a lot of things, but it's definitely not going to replace me. And I think this is really important. Like, you know, when you approach AI adoption from the perspective of your team and like how to get them on board rather than something they have to do, that completely changes the mindset about using AI.
[00:19:00] And it's not about leadership is forcing me to use AI because I have to. It's like, oh, wow, AI is so cool. And I can build so many things to make my life easier and I can be a better employee. And this is an investment in my future. And that's a really big shift. Yeah, a couple of things sort of roiling around in my head as you were speaking. And I think one of them is that it should never be let's use AI. It should be what are our goals?
[00:19:28] And you should be setting goals that are only possible with AI because now there's so much more that's possible when you apply AI to a process that's going after a business goal. So always having that in mind and maybe focusing people on what is the goal we're trying to achieve and where does AI fit into making that possible?
[00:19:49] And the second thing is we were talking about this a lot at the Digital Shelf Summit is if, in fact, at some point, AI is able to take away, I don't know, 60, 70, 80 percent of the drudgery of e-commerce. So you don't need to be in there changing e-commerce descriptions or trying to figure out what the changes are from retailers and what to do next.
[00:20:13] The AI can recommend the next best action, but you get to be that you get to focus on where you can actually have a business impact. That's not simply an efficiency is important, but actually about growth. Like so that because where the growth is coming from is going to be the hard nut to crack in this coming like five years or wherever.
[00:20:36] And I would imagine that if it can be felt, if you can do some sort of pilot project that just gives the glimpse of what that freedom could, you know, could be given to you so that your job is more about, you know, whatever you want to call it, being the growth architect,
[00:21:02] rather than the necessarily the PXM, you know, champion or something that that's what gets me excited is about the the opportunity to actually have a promotion out of this rather than a replacement. Yeah, 100%.
[00:21:19] I think like, you know, what I what I get really excited about right now is the opportunity to really diversify like your like each and every like person's skill set and the ability to diversify the way you think. You know, I my sort of mantra for 2026 is if you can imagine and you can probably build it. And that applies both to work and non-work projects.
[00:21:48] But like if you think about you can literally vibe code right now a solution to your day to day problems. And just imagine how much that develops your way of thinking about solving a problem.
[00:22:02] And so it's it's really about seeing each one of us individually, seeing what an incredible opportunity it is for our own self-development to like, you know, completely diversify the way we think, diversify our data inputs in terms of how we make decisions.
[00:22:22] Like build our own like much more elaborate flows of gathering information, learning and then giving like superior quality of work. So I think it's really exciting, really. I agree. The vibe coding thing is also amazing, right? Because you can go and you can create something that can solve a problem. So it is a very, very exciting time. And you've been talking a bit, Joe, about like barriers that brands are seeing and a big piece is mindset and ways of thinking.
[00:22:52] Are there other barriers, whether it's executive leadership, like really kind of investing in AI or change management? Like what are what is like the biggest barrier outside of mindset that you're seeing from a brand perspective that maybe they can kind of tackle to kind of get past it? Yeah, I think, you know, two things is like speed to change.
[00:23:14] I think reality is that if companies want to really adopt to AI, they really need to realize that AI is not a project that you can map out in the next three to five years. You know, AI is literally moving. And that's why I write a newsletter four times a week, because it's moving so fast that, you know, if I don't, I will fall behind.
[00:23:42] And same thing applies to companies like, you know, if they don't realize that this is not something that they sit and they plan for ages and then they get another approval. So you have to have like a certain like, like certain speed to market when if you want to market or to team with which you test and break things and see what works.
[00:24:07] And you can probably do it in like, you know, sort of little mini test groups internally before you roll it out to the wider team. But you have to get into the mindset of a startup or like build that within the team. Because, you know, even when we talk about, for example, to adoption, this is a this is a common challenge, especially for larger organizations.
[00:24:28] You know, there is there is like a let's call it a procurement process in which like a tool has been selected and it's rolled out across the entire organization. But a lot of the times maybe this tool is not the best out there in the market or doesn't fulfill the needs for each and every individual team.
[00:24:47] And then you get to the point where like because this team because this tool is just not good enough or not fit for purpose, people get disillusioned or they get turned off and that poisons the well. And then you don't want that. You want people to like have the opportunity to use some of the best tools. You can definitely figure out what is like your AI policy.
[00:25:13] I mean, every company should have like an AI policy of what data should and shouldn't be used, etc. But don't hamper the ability for people to really get like real use out of these tools because you've just given them the tool that everybody's kind of comfortable with. So like I think speed and then tooling is really important. And I think just, yes, going into like changing completely the mindset about AI.
[00:25:43] AI is really the most insane cataclysmic change that I think is going to happen in our lifetimes. And I feel like people should really take this seriously and see it as one, a massive opportunity, but then also massive disruptor.
[00:25:59] If you don't disrupt your processes, your team, your mindset about how a company is run, how teams are structured, how processes are run, how we learn, how we train and how we motivate people. I think there will be a lot of companies that would and you'll fall behind. But don't be scared. No, everything's fine, but get your shit together.
[00:26:31] So to kind of go to the tooling for a moment, and I know this probably will get this, make this podcast dated in 60 days or something like that, or maybe even less. But what are the two tools that right now you are most focused on and you think, you know, the brand leader listener that's listening right now should be considering? Yeah.
[00:26:58] I mean, 100% with you, like this will be very outdated very soon. We'll have you back. Yeah, yeah. I think I just want to do like a little segment to talk a little bit about why, like I really believe, outdated of tools. Just to give you like a little bit of a timeline and then I'll tell you about the two tools. Like, you know, about, let's call it, let's call it conservatively, 12 months ago, everybody was using Chachipiti.
[00:27:28] And that was the only tool that anyone ever cared about. And they were, you know, just, you know, there was nothing else but Chachipiti. Then came out, like, maybe like nine months later, came out Gemini. And Gemini was, oh my God, the tool that is basically changing AI forever. No one else should use anything else but Gemini.
[00:27:51] Now, fast forward six months ago, then Claude, like, which by the way, I have been banging on about Claude for about two and a half years. But at that point, everybody caught up that Claude is the best tool. And oh my God, you cannot live and breathe AI if you don't have a full Claude subscription.
[00:28:10] And so I just want to point out that again, tooling advice is a bit, you know, it's really, it's difficult because these companies are constantly competing to like figure out the best models, the best tooling, the best use cases. So one little tip before I say which tools is, again, think tool agnostic. Build your processes, build your context libraries outside of any tool.
[00:28:40] Like, make sure you codify this outside in a central location in your organization. Don't make it live in the tool because then whatever tool is the best at the moment, you can switch that much easier than like building everything within one tool and then be like, oh no, this is now crap. So to answer the question, my tool that I have been using literally religiously for two and a half years, basically since 2023.
[00:29:08] So three years now is Anthropic's Claude. I think it's a amazing tool because although it doesn't like maybe do everything, though now it's getting to that point. I think what like Anthropic does really well is go deep in terms of how businesses should solve problems.
[00:29:29] And so like, you know, for example, one great, great function that they built about six months ago, a little more was skills. And this is exactly what I was talking about is codifying the way you do a process and then AI reading that and executing in this way. Again, it's a concept and that concept you can apply to whether you use Copilot or Gemini or ChatGPT doesn't matter.
[00:29:56] It's the concept, but they managed to package it and build it within the functionality in a really smart way. And I also think firstly, Anthropic does things from an ethical point of view much better than I think most other companies do, which I think is important also to think about. And I also think the way that their model thinks, let's call it thinks, and reasons through problems is far, far, far superior than all the others that I've tested.
[00:30:26] And I've tested them and I test them all the time. And it's just, it's very subtle and I can't explain it, but it's just much smarter. For anything creative wise, I would say right now the best model is for anything creative wise in the space of e-commerce, let's call it, is Google Gemini. So if you want to build any flows that include any sort of like visual output, I think Google's Gemini is your best bet.
[00:30:58] And I'm imagining, particularly when you go into larger brands, they're very restricted in terms of, they can't do a lot of tool hopping. Because if it's a Microsoft shop, right, I don't know, I'd love to get your perspective on that. Like how much, how much flexibility is there? And do you feel like larger brands will need to become more flexible to really make this happen?
[00:31:24] Or is that just not going to happen because it's global IT and they're a Microsoft shop or whatever? What are you finding out there? Well, what I'm finding is, is that like, yes, I think Microsoft Copilot is definitely the preferred solution, obviously for many security reasons, for very good reasons for a lot of large organizations.
[00:31:47] I just, I just feel from testing it and from everything I've read about it and all of the peer feedback I've received, it may not be quite on par with some of the other players yet in terms of capability.
[00:32:05] And this is going back to what I said about risk of poisoning the well is like, you know, a lot of employees just end up being frustrated by, you know, being encouraged to use AI day to day and not being given the right tooling in order to do this, their roles really well. And so I think it's a challenge because I think again, we go back to the big organization problem.
[00:32:35] We have like, we have a way things have been done and it's difficult to make that change in a desirable speed.
[00:32:45] But I also feel that if that, if, you know, employees, if like the leaders of these, of these organizations don't start thinking about competitive edge through AI and through capability, then, you know, again, there will be much more nimble agile companies who would.
[00:33:08] And, and so again, it's, it's not like, I'm sure that like Microsoft co-pilot will continue investing and developing. It's just the question is like, how fast? And if we're talking about May, 2026, like, is this the best tool you can use right now to like build maybe more sophisticated workflows?
[00:33:31] Workflows, maybe not. And so the question is like, can the organization think about processes to like slowly roll out more enablement? But, you know, that is. Yeah. And so I didn't mean to sort of put you on the spot necessarily specifically about Microsoft, but they are the one that comes to mind. They are, they are, they are.
[00:34:24] Community are the advocates for, for change in their organizations. And it's a, it's a hard job. But I think anchoring it to outcomes and being diligent about proving that. And I think is, you know, that will gain power over time. It's just will gain power in time enough. So I guess that's what we're going to find out. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:50] I think this is, yeah, I guess it's, it's really about like, you know, trying to build small case studies internally. And then, you know, the proof is in the pudding. Like it's always about that. So, you know, building enough like proof to, I guess, let's say, ask for a change. Prove the value. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:15] It's one of my most favorite things to do is to try similar things across a couple of options and just see what the difference is. Yeah. In terms of it being a thinking partner. And also, is it easy to store context in the way that you're talking about? It's really hard when you sort of, when I feel like I need to remind the AI every time I start a new chat, I feel like I'm starting from scratch because there isn't that infrastructure for locking all that in.
[00:35:45] Or maybe I don't know about it in some of the tools that I use, but it does feel like Claude has that kind of sorted out, which is pretty cool. Yeah. But again, like context always should really live outside of the, outside of the tool. That's right. But here's one, here's one little trick or tip. Oh yeah. Let's close with a trick. I love it. Yeah. Let's close with a trick.
[00:36:10] So one tool that I really love, and this is not like an AI tool is actually like, I would call it more of a productivity tool is called Whisperflow. And Whisperflow is really fantastic, fantastic tool. It's very simple. It's basically a voice transcription tool.
[00:36:31] But the trick here is that it would transcribe what you're saying in any environment, whether it's a Slack or WhatsApp or an email or an AI model. And the beauty here is that we, when we, for example, sit down and type something, that takes time. And if we have a lot to think, to say, to type, sometimes you get lazy.
[00:36:55] And specifically with AI, there is like this itch to like press the enter button just to get the thing done. And that is obviously where the lack of context gives you mediocre results. But if you talk, and if you just go through with your flow of thoughts, and you have an interrupted flow of thoughts, and that is the context you give, you immediately alleviate that like barrier through the typing. And you improve so much the results.
[00:37:25] And so I've found that just generally, not just by using AI, but just even like typing a WhatsApp message to my partner, like, you know, I'm so much better at like giving enough context so that the communication flows well. That is amazing. Whisperflow. Applies to all elements of our lives. 100%. Communication is the pivotal thing of everything that we do, I think.
[00:37:52] So, Joe, I have to ask, as I let you go, anyone who's listened to this podcast now is going to want to subscribe to your newsletter. So what's the best way to do that? Sure. So, well, firstly, you can go and find my very long story name. I'm the only one. Joanna Lamberg, I have on LinkedIn. And you can connect with me. Yes. It's not a very catchy name. No, it's a beautiful name. It's just hard to find. Thank you. It's gorgeous. Yes.
[00:38:23] And you can connect with me on LinkedIn and there is a direct link to my newsletter there. Or you can literally type in ai4ecommercenewsletter.com. And that is where you can also find some of the previous issues. So, again, don't subscribe if you don't like it. First, have a read and then subscribe. Love it. Well, Joe, we are so grateful to have your brain and your four times a week newsletter and everything sort of working on behalf of our industry.
[00:38:51] And also, of course, for coming and sharing it with our community. We're really grateful. Thank you so much. And it was such a nice chat. I really enjoyed it, guys. Like, thank you so much for having me. Thanks so much, Joe. Thanks to Joe for all the insights and for building really strong stools. Great advice is always on hand at digitalshelfinstitute.org. Make sure you remember, thanks for being part of our community. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.