[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age.
[00:00:15] Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute.
[00:00:19] For our listeners who sell direct to their consumer or buyers, a composable tech stack is pretty much a necessity these days to keep up with the buying experiences your customers expect.
[00:00:31] And in the next era, it will be essential to achieve the kind of more niche and personalized experiences that will be necessary to drive growth and win market share.
[00:00:41] James Semple, Product Management Director at Microsoft and self-proclaimed Evangelist of the Composable Ecosystem, joined Lauren Levack-Gilbert and me to discuss the current and future states of contextual omni-channel commerce.
[00:00:54] James, welcome to the podcast. We're so excited to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us.
[00:01:00] Absolute pleasure, Peter. Thank you so much for inviting me. This is great.
[00:01:04] Yeah, I mean, today we're going to talk about composable commerce, which has been going on for a while.
[00:01:09] And I think many retailers have explored that so that they can introduce the capabilities they need kind of at speed and scale and incorporate them into their tech stack.
[00:01:21] So I think we just wanted to catch up with you on where composability sits in the tech stack of retailers today.
[00:01:28] And is it driving the kind of impact and results that they expect? Is it working?
[00:01:34] Wow, that's a great, great question. So I would say that where it sits.
[00:01:38] So composability really is that ability to, you know, not tie yourself to a single product vendor's roadmap.
[00:01:44] So that ability to pick and choose between that.
[00:01:47] So the benefits that it can provide from that, I think, are working.
[00:01:51] I think there's a lot of companies out there doing really well selling smaller parts of the tech stack.
[00:01:56] So by which I mean, you know, custom just CMS or just search or just payment, stuff like that.
[00:02:02] So, you know, fulfilling part of that commerce journey, even personalization, things like that all by itself.
[00:02:08] So I think from that point of view, it is definitely working.
[00:02:10] And I think you could talk to many different companies who've seen great business results because of moving to a composable architecture.
[00:02:17] Definitely. Frankly, I think at the moment, you know, macroeconomic conditions are driving certain trends across the market.
[00:02:24] So it's really interesting if I talk to companies who are on a real just growth pattern right now, they're heavily investing in this.
[00:02:30] So I do think that it definitely, definitely works.
[00:02:33] I think we've seen a slight slowdown just because of macroeconomic conditions.
[00:02:36] But if the investment's available, then, yeah, absolutely.
[00:02:39] It's certainly paying off in a whole number of different areas.
[00:02:43] So how do you think that the if you can sort of describe where sort of the composable,
[00:02:50] the history of composable and sort of where we've gotten and how it's evolved over time?
[00:02:55] Because I think some people are sort of locked into maybe an earlier way of thinking about composability.
[00:03:01] I'm just wondering if you can take us on a little modernization journey.
[00:03:06] Yeah, no, that's a great, actually, that's a great point.
[00:03:08] And again, like a lot of these things, composability is, it's not a, you know, all or nothing kind of thing.
[00:03:14] So, yeah, that's a great point.
[00:03:16] So if we look back about, say, 15 years ago, there were certain companies, certain retailers and similar commerce companies were building either completely from scratch in-house,
[00:03:26] building their own commerce engines, or they were, you know, ripping apart existing products and kind of using them in the ways that weren't intended.
[00:03:33] Because there was certain functionality they were unable to access that wasn't available off the shelf,
[00:03:38] or because they wanted, you know, multiple different systems to work together in ways that they weren't currently built for.
[00:03:44] So that kind of early kind of approach to composability, what I've called wave one in an article I wrote,
[00:03:51] that was kind of cool in the sense that people knew what they were doing,
[00:03:54] but they also realized they were doing a lot of heavy lifting and they were breaking the, effectively,
[00:03:57] breaking the warranties of a lot of these products they were using.
[00:04:00] So what they ended up doing in what I would consider to be my wave two is that you saw a bunch of companies come forward with products specifically built to be used in this way.
[00:04:11] So much more toolkits, less high-level functionality, and generally, here's a bunch of APIs that you can use to do your commerce functionality,
[00:04:17] so build what you want with them, which kind of worked out okay,
[00:04:21] except for the fact that this was a fairly small percentage of the overall retail market, overall commerce market in general.
[00:04:27] So it wasn't big enough to get market share for these smaller companies building these products.
[00:04:30] So basically, through what I call wave three, we get an amplification of that message through the Mac Alliance,
[00:04:36] and then also COVID, where there was a lot of, let's just throw money at our website and see if it works.
[00:04:41] Let's be honest.
[00:04:43] Oh, the good old days.
[00:04:48] What are we going to do?
[00:04:49] Here's a shotgun full of money.
[00:04:50] I'm going to fire at my website.
[00:04:53] So, look, you know, actually, I don't mind that because in a way I think it was more of an exciting time.
[00:04:58] But what came up as a result of that?
[00:05:00] It was a bit of a backlash because, frankly, I think to get composable out to the mainstream,
[00:05:05] maybe the message was simplified, and certainly a lot of the ramifications that those guys back in wave one were completely aware of were being lost.
[00:05:12] And if you imagine you've just got a single product,
[00:05:14] and you now have a complex architect with many, many different vendors,
[00:05:17] this is a complicated step up in terms of how much complexity you've got to manage,
[00:05:22] how much complexity involved.
[00:05:24] And it really is complex at every level, you know, contractual, organizational, you know, commercial.
[00:05:29] Everything becomes complex.
[00:05:30] Imagine if you have, you know, 15 products, and one of them is GMV-based,
[00:05:34] and one of them is API cost-based, and another one, I mean, hosting, who even knows?
[00:05:38] But, you know, like hosting has a complex costing system.
[00:05:43] So it's hard enough to work out how much the cost of doing business last year was,
[00:05:47] let alone predict what next year is going to be.
[00:05:49] So my point being was a lot of complexity that was suddenly taken on in a big, big hit.
[00:05:54] A lot of companies bizarrely went from like one single product to 15 different products,
[00:05:58] and it became a very, very difficult thing to run.
[00:06:01] So where I would say we've kind of swung back to is a little bit more of a kind of slightly more sober middle ground,
[00:06:06] where I feel that a lot of companies' ideas of composable these days is one single product doing,
[00:06:13] let's say, 75% of their architecture with multiple products around it.
[00:06:18] So if I think about why we go headless, why we go composable,
[00:06:22] headless, breaking off your user experience away from your backend,
[00:06:26] one of the biggest reasons to do that right now is omnichannel,
[00:06:29] which we can talk about in a second.
[00:06:31] But the idea of exposing all of that business data and functionality,
[00:06:34] particularly personalized data, but also that same functionality across all of your,
[00:06:38] any kind of channel that you want to,
[00:06:40] the composable aspect is I'm not going to tie my roadmap to a single product vendor's roadmap, right?
[00:06:46] And I think that's the benefit.
[00:06:48] But often people, if they're going to go with a platform,
[00:06:51] they already like 90% of what the platform already does.
[00:06:53] So it does become, but I don't like this one thing.
[00:06:56] I don't like these two things.
[00:06:57] This is where I'm going to really choose my battles and do that.
[00:07:01] So I would say to your exact point, Peter,
[00:07:03] the modern state of composable for the most part in the market is looking like this.
[00:07:06] Now, it doesn't mean there aren't,
[00:07:07] there's still people using complete single platforms
[00:07:09] and there are still people completely, you know, 15 to 20 different vendors.
[00:07:14] So it is horses for courses, but I do feel that the majority right in the middle,
[00:07:18] that's the kind of version of composable they're using,
[00:07:21] which again, does mitigate a lot of that,
[00:07:23] those heavy operational challenges that we just outlined.
[00:07:27] So why have we really kind of seen that,
[00:07:30] I'm going to call it like a peak and valley kind of approach to composable,
[00:07:35] because it was a really hot topic, then I feel like it went away.
[00:07:38] And then I feel like a lot of, if I'm talking about on the brand side,
[00:07:40] decided to like in-house a lot of things and decided to build it.
[00:07:44] And now they're going back and they're thinking more composable
[00:07:46] and they don't want to build in-house.
[00:07:48] Like why was it a hot topic and now it's coming back?
[00:07:50] And why are there really those peaks and valleys
[00:07:53] that you've seen throughout these different waves?
[00:07:56] Great question, Lauren, and good to see you as well.
[00:07:58] But I guess the way I would look at this would be,
[00:08:01] I mean, you're absolutely right, firstly, that that's exactly what's happened.
[00:08:04] And I definitely get into conversations where people like,
[00:08:07] the previous CTO hired 30 developers.
[00:08:11] We need to get rid of those 30 developers.
[00:08:13] Can you help us do that?
[00:08:14] And so I definitely get into those kind of conversations.
[00:08:16] So you're right.
[00:08:17] I think there was, again,
[00:08:19] I think I would put a lot of this down to macroeconomic conditions.
[00:08:21] So COVID, lots and lots of money thrown at the website
[00:08:24] because the stores obviously weren't making money.
[00:08:27] And it just hit at the same time as the Mac Alliance
[00:08:30] was really, really getting a lot of great publicity.
[00:08:32] And so I feel that the message really resonated.
[00:08:34] Everyone wanted that.
[00:08:35] How do we stand out from the crowd?
[00:08:38] I think, I'm just trying to think of the right way of putting it.
[00:08:41] I think a couple of things here.
[00:08:43] I really will not underestimate,
[00:08:46] you know, and I overused this phrase already,
[00:08:48] but macroeconomic conditions are driving so many decisions right now.
[00:08:51] I think certain products are on the rise at the moment
[00:08:53] that in a more buoyant market, people wouldn't even be looking at.
[00:08:57] And I think, as I say, talking to companies
[00:08:59] who are still managing to do well and still, you know,
[00:09:01] you're on your growth,
[00:09:02] they're still really looking at those kind of Mac projects.
[00:09:04] So I think that's been one of the things.
[00:09:06] I think perhaps some people went into some of these projects
[00:09:09] a little bit, you know, naively, maybe let's say,
[00:09:13] and were kind of shocked at some of the consequences.
[00:09:15] I think speaking from my own point of view,
[00:09:18] from the start of the Mac Alliance,
[00:09:20] I just kind of assumed that companies were going to get more technical.
[00:09:22] Frankly, I just assumed that was the only way that retailers
[00:09:25] could survive in the upcoming market was to get more technical.
[00:09:28] Now, they haven't done that.
[00:09:30] So that makes the appeal of that to a large set of companies a bit different.
[00:09:36] It's less appealing if you haven't got that internal technical team.
[00:09:39] Nevertheless, I think the other reason about this
[00:09:41] is I just think it's become table stakes.
[00:09:44] Maybe we've moved through the period of composable
[00:09:47] being the new exciting thing to what can we do now
[00:09:50] we have a composable architecture.
[00:09:52] You know, seamless omni-channel isn't really going to exist
[00:09:55] without a composable architecture.
[00:09:57] And just on that very point, I was at a car manufacturers
[00:10:00] and they were saying to me, they were looking at their architecture,
[00:10:02] saying, how is Headless Composable, you know, helping in this?
[00:10:05] And I'm saying, well, you know, you have an app
[00:10:07] and you have a website and you have a kiosk for self-service in store
[00:10:10] and you have a clienteling solution and you have an in-car solution.
[00:10:13] If you didn't have a Headless solution to this, how would you do it?
[00:10:17] You would, you know, you'd have five or six different, like,
[00:10:19] points of record that you'd have to synchronize somehow
[00:10:21] and full stack solutions for everything.
[00:10:23] You don't want that at all.
[00:10:24] You want the same functionality written in one place
[00:10:26] exposed to APIs to all of these different user interfaces, right?
[00:10:30] They're all basically accessing the same system
[00:10:32] with different interfaces.
[00:10:33] So I just think it's becoming part of the system at this point now.
[00:10:37] I think it's becoming so integral.
[00:10:39] I think just about every company now has a composable offering,
[00:10:41] really, in that sense.
[00:10:42] So maybe that's the, maybe that's the reason it's sort of not,
[00:10:45] people aren't so excited about it nowadays.
[00:10:47] It's kind of just everywhere.
[00:10:49] To your point about companies getting more technical, though,
[00:10:52] like if, if a retailer or brand is moving towards
[00:10:55] more of a composable kind of architecture,
[00:10:57] what do they need internally from a support perspective,
[00:11:02] technically from IT or their just technology function in general?
[00:11:07] Well, so, okay.
[00:11:08] So this is a, this is an area that Salesforce,
[00:11:11] we've really, really tried to drill into specifically that point.
[00:11:14] So our composable storefront was specifically designed
[00:11:16] to solve that specific challenge.
[00:11:18] It can be a lot of people, frankly.
[00:11:21] You don't have to, you know, take my word for it.
[00:11:23] A lot of companies talk about technical maturity
[00:11:25] and that really works into, you know,
[00:11:28] the idea of having a fairly highly skilled,
[00:11:30] reasonable size skilled team of people running your architecture.
[00:11:33] If you think you now have to deal with things like hosting,
[00:11:35] you have to deal with, you know,
[00:11:38] you're responsible for your architecture.
[00:11:40] You might have an architecture that literally is unique.
[00:11:42] Nobody else has this exact architecture.
[00:11:43] So you might be also, you know,
[00:11:46] coming up against problems that nobody else is facing
[00:11:48] because nobody else is integrating these products the same way.
[00:11:51] You know, the, one of the things probably,
[00:11:54] I would say that people underestimated in that initial look at composability
[00:11:57] was glue code, I guess is the phrase for it,
[00:12:00] which is the custom code you write to tie these multiple different products together.
[00:12:04] That can be a lot more than people expect,
[00:12:06] especially if you're used to using products
[00:12:07] where a lot of it's kind of built into the product
[00:12:09] as you just have to configure it.
[00:12:11] So, so I think that's the area where it can come in.
[00:12:13] We have tried very hard at Salesforce
[00:12:15] with our offering specifically to solve that exact problem.
[00:12:18] So having third parties pre-built connectors,
[00:12:21] having systems integrators pre-built accelerators
[00:12:25] that have these connectors already built into it.
[00:12:26] And then having, if you think about a typical headless commerce architecture,
[00:12:32] the headless commerce engine itself,
[00:12:34] their responsibility stops at the backend.
[00:12:36] You can, they can guarantee, you know, fast,
[00:12:39] good uptime APIs, you know,
[00:12:41] performant APIs that are staying up all the time,
[00:12:43] that are scalable, stuff like that.
[00:12:44] Whereas we are actually taking our hosting to the front end.
[00:12:48] And I think, I believe we were the first people
[00:12:49] in the composable space to have built that
[00:12:52] and to include that kind of hosting and storefront
[00:12:54] in our full commerce offering like that.
[00:12:57] So yeah, we try to take all of those things
[00:12:59] that you typically expect from a product vendor
[00:13:00] to the front end as well.
[00:13:01] So scalability, uptime security, performance,
[00:13:03] the whole thing like that.
[00:13:04] So, but yeah, to your point,
[00:13:06] typically, typically if you haven't got that,
[00:13:08] you would need a fairly large team to go ahead and build that.
[00:13:10] And as I said, with customers not getting a lot technical,
[00:13:13] this is an extra expense that they have to take on
[00:13:17] that they maybe didn't, yeah, right.
[00:13:19] The biggest hidden expense, frankly.
[00:13:21] So you were talking earlier about OmniChain.
[00:13:24] I think, you know, with all of those,
[00:13:26] with all of this technology,
[00:13:28] it's easy to just get into a technology discussion.
[00:13:31] But the reason why, and I think you were referring to it,
[00:13:34] why it's so table stakes requirement now
[00:13:37] is simply because the consumer expects everything everywhere.
[00:13:42] And that has to be fueled by technology across in-store, online,
[00:13:47] and then the merger between the two.
[00:13:49] And so I was wondering if you could dig into that a little bit for us
[00:13:51] and talk about what are the scenarios
[00:13:57] or kind of what is it that OmniChannel is driving
[00:14:02] that is making Composable be so effective
[00:14:05] to help deliver that business value?
[00:14:07] Yeah, no, that's a really, really great question.
[00:14:09] And actually, I just want to quickly go back to the start of that point.
[00:14:13] 100%, that's another reason, actually, that Composable had a problem,
[00:14:17] was for some people buying it was a solution in search of a problem.
[00:14:20] They didn't really know what they were lining it up against.
[00:14:23] And something I always really, really strive very hard
[00:14:25] to talk to people about is why are you going to go Composable?
[00:14:28] What is the business value behind this?
[00:14:29] And I generally try and talk to people into putting KPIs in place.
[00:14:33] Let's measure something.
[00:14:34] Let's look so that next year we can say in black and white,
[00:14:36] we have had a success and we can be very clear about it.
[00:14:39] We know what we're measuring.
[00:14:40] So yeah, 100%.
[00:14:41] In the OmniChannel space, I think the biggest difference
[00:14:43] between OmniChannel now and what people considered to be
[00:14:47] something like OmniChannel or Multichannel retail previously
[00:14:49] was the previous requirement was like,
[00:14:54] I want to be able to see a catalog across multiple things.
[00:14:57] I want to see the same catalog in store.
[00:14:58] I want to be able to see the same catalog on a website.
[00:15:00] That was considered like enough.
[00:15:02] I want to be able to do similar functionality in different places.
[00:15:06] I want to be able to buy online.
[00:15:07] I want to be able to buy here.
[00:15:08] And I think that, frankly, that's just not what people expect now.
[00:15:12] People expect them, you know, if I'm shopping,
[00:15:15] I expect every channel that I interact with, say a brand,
[00:15:18] to know it's me and to be able to cater to my taste,
[00:15:21] to know my sizes, to know all of these kinds of things like that.
[00:15:23] And so I think, frankly, I mean, I feel,
[00:15:26] I hate to be the last, you know, in a long line of profits saying,
[00:15:30] OmniChannel is just around the corner,
[00:15:31] because let's say, let's face it,
[00:15:34] the online offline integration has been just around the corner
[00:15:36] for about 30 years now.
[00:15:37] But yeah, I feel that, I do feel that there's a big driver.
[00:15:42] So I guess actually there's two points.
[00:15:43] One is I feel there's a demand for it.
[00:15:45] One thing I did notice with interacting with a lot of people
[00:15:47] who had stores closed through COVID and then when it reopened
[00:15:49] was that when it reopened, first of like,
[00:15:51] yes, we're back in our stores.
[00:15:53] But then second, like three months later, they're like,
[00:15:56] oh, you know, actual in-store experience is quite,
[00:15:57] quite primitive compared to a lot of what we get online.
[00:16:00] We know a lot about customers when they turn up online
[00:16:02] and we don't know necessarily in-store.
[00:16:04] So I think there's a desire that that suddenly kind of hit home.
[00:16:07] And then, you know, frankly,
[00:16:09] one of the problems that has always been there with,
[00:16:11] you know, the offline mode is how do we identify people?
[00:16:13] But we're all carrying around phones all the time.
[00:16:16] You know, we've all got our phones there
[00:16:17] that we can use as a way of identifying ourselves.
[00:16:19] So if I went into a store and I just scanned a QR code
[00:16:22] and I kind of, it's doing two things.
[00:16:24] It's identifying me and it's also opting in.
[00:16:26] So if I say, I can think of a great example
[00:16:29] where this would be, would be,
[00:16:30] because I spent way too much time at airports,
[00:16:32] would be at an airport store where there's a massive amount
[00:16:34] of footfall and largely, you know,
[00:16:37] 99% plus of anonymous customers, right?
[00:16:40] It's not like the local store for most people.
[00:16:43] Well, I don't know.
[00:16:43] They might recognize me.
[00:16:45] But I guess the point is that, you know,
[00:16:47] so every time I go in there,
[00:16:48] I go into like a clothing store of a brand I really like
[00:16:50] and they just completely ignore me.
[00:16:51] And they totally shouldn't.
[00:16:53] They should see me as a high value customer,
[00:16:55] ply me with champagne and not let me leave
[00:16:56] until I spend a thousand pounds or something.
[00:16:58] You know what I'm getting at, right?
[00:17:00] So, but the thing, I guess what I'm trying to say
[00:17:02] is that when I say like, they should know who I am, right?
[00:17:06] The thing that's driven this to start off with,
[00:17:08] firstly, is the high take up of social commerce.
[00:17:11] That is something that definitely should not be underestimated.
[00:17:13] We have some customers with large brands
[00:17:15] and particularly in luxury and fashion and so on like that.
[00:17:18] They're making 30% of their online revenue
[00:17:19] through this alone, right?
[00:17:20] And this is tens of millions.
[00:17:22] This is a huge amount of money.
[00:17:23] This is not just kind of like something we'll have a look at.
[00:17:27] It's, you know, and you have whole generations
[00:17:29] and this might come as a shock to some people listening to this,
[00:17:32] but you have whole generations
[00:17:33] or large swathes of generations now,
[00:17:35] particularly like Gen Z, Gen Alpha,
[00:17:37] even coming into the buying range right now.
[00:17:40] I have a 15-year-old daughter.
[00:17:42] And, you know, at this point,
[00:17:44] a lot of them are not going to Google.
[00:17:46] So you might've optimized your SEO and everything,
[00:17:48] but so what?
[00:17:49] We're not looking there.
[00:17:50] You know, we're looking at influencers.
[00:17:51] We're looking at TikTok.
[00:17:52] We're looking at Instagram and so on like that.
[00:17:54] So you have to be there.
[00:17:56] You have to be present in those kinds of areas
[00:17:57] if that's your market.
[00:17:59] And so again, how do you expose personalized offers?
[00:18:02] How do you expose all of that buying functionality through that?
[00:18:04] So I would say that that's actually been
[00:18:06] one of the biggest drivers of Omnichannel
[00:18:09] because a lot of companies are like,
[00:18:10] it's a nice idea,
[00:18:11] but actually I really do only have one channel.
[00:18:13] I really just have my website
[00:18:14] and we're not so worried about joining up online and offline.
[00:18:18] So I think that's driven a lot of it.
[00:18:19] To my point about the experience,
[00:18:22] one thing that I talk about a lot with retailers these days
[00:18:24] is highly contextual engagement.
[00:18:26] I think the one thing about your consumer is,
[00:18:29] I think everyone could agree with this.
[00:18:30] The consumer is starved for time
[00:18:32] and absolutely inundated with information all the time.
[00:18:36] And so how do you grab their attention?
[00:18:39] How do you make sure that every interaction you have with them
[00:18:41] is a compelling and engaging engagement?
[00:18:44] How do you make sure that it's something
[00:18:46] that is just not like an incredibly impersonal,
[00:18:49] incredibly bland thing
[00:18:50] that will not get people's attention these days?
[00:18:52] So an example would be,
[00:18:53] imagine I did opt into a store
[00:18:55] and I just tapped on my phone as I came in or whatever.
[00:18:58] Instead of coming up and saying,
[00:19:00] hello, Mr. Sample, how can we help you today?
[00:19:02] Oh, sorry, actually, hello, sir.
[00:19:03] How can I help you today?
[00:19:04] I don't walk around with a badge with my name on.
[00:19:06] How can you, you know, I'm not that famous yet.
[00:19:10] But, you know, they don't come up and just say like,
[00:19:12] you know, how can we help you today?
[00:19:13] If they came up and said, you know,
[00:19:14] hello, Mr. Sample, we actually have some of this.
[00:19:16] We noticed recently you've been, you know,
[00:19:17] looking for this product.
[00:19:18] You haven't bought it yet.
[00:19:19] We have it in size,
[00:19:20] in some of the colors you've been looking at.
[00:19:21] You know, literally walk towards me
[00:19:23] holding like a sweater or whatever like that.
[00:19:25] That would be an engaging, compelling experience, right?
[00:19:28] That's much more likely to grab your attention.
[00:19:30] And again, it's not just the use of the consumer's time.
[00:19:33] It's also the use of your store associate's time, right?
[00:19:35] So it's that ability to deliver something that's much more relevant,
[00:19:39] much more compelling and engaging with your consumers.
[00:19:41] And you're reaching out to them and making them feel,
[00:19:43] you know, particularly in the anonymous online world,
[00:19:46] making them feel, you know,
[00:19:49] respected and kind of treasured as a customer
[00:19:51] and so on like that.
[00:19:52] So I think that's one of the big things.
[00:19:53] And much more likely to convert.
[00:19:56] Yeah, no, I mean, look, when you get it down to that level,
[00:19:59] yeah, 100%.
[00:19:59] And, you know, it's not even just that.
[00:20:01] It's also customer loyalty, right?
[00:20:02] Because that is becoming harder and harder
[00:20:03] and the cost of acquiring new customers is really high.
[00:20:06] So like when you can do things like this,
[00:20:07] you just make a large, you know,
[00:20:09] I often go back to one of the best experiences
[00:20:11] is if there's somebody who just owns his own shop
[00:20:13] and he knows all his products and he knows you as your customer,
[00:20:15] that's a really beautiful way to talk to somebody.
[00:20:17] Somebody just walk around the corner,
[00:20:18] go to the store and do that, right?
[00:20:20] And we're talking about huge companies
[00:20:22] dealing with, you know, millions of consumers here.
[00:20:26] How do you try and get something as close
[00:20:27] to that one-to-one engagement
[00:20:29] of the kind of corner shop kind of thing
[00:20:30] to this kind of scale?
[00:20:32] How do you do it?
[00:20:33] And it's through high amounts of personalization
[00:20:35] and really maximizing the way that you speak
[00:20:38] to your customers and so on like that.
[00:20:39] So this is where I would say composable and headless
[00:20:41] plays an integral part of that.
[00:20:43] How do you think about that
[00:20:45] from the perspective of a challenger brand?
[00:20:47] So speaking of loyalty
[00:20:49] and speaking of like going to your corner store
[00:20:52] and buying a product and knowing the person,
[00:20:54] what if there's a new and upcoming brand
[00:20:56] that is trying to get the attention of a consumer
[00:20:59] and they have a personalized message,
[00:21:01] but they can't figure out a way to break in?
[00:21:03] Like, do you have any thoughts
[00:21:04] or have you seen any examples of challenger brands
[00:21:07] who won that business
[00:21:08] or brought that loyalty over to them?
[00:21:11] No, that's, I mean, that's a great,
[00:21:12] that's a really, really great question.
[00:21:14] I feel if I had a bulletproof answer to that,
[00:21:16] I would be incredibly rich right now.
[00:21:18] You would be famous
[00:21:19] and you'd have a name tag walking around.
[00:21:23] Well, that is the goal, right?
[00:21:25] So I think the, I think,
[00:21:27] I mean, one of the obvious,
[00:21:28] maybe not obvious,
[00:21:29] but one of the things that I've seen
[00:21:30] that's been successful is obviously,
[00:21:32] I don't know, let me think.
[00:21:33] If you're a clothing brand,
[00:21:34] you might be, you know, so, okay.
[00:21:36] So an example I would say
[00:21:37] I have some knowledge of
[00:21:38] and I worked with early on
[00:21:40] is Fat Face, the clothing brand that-
[00:21:42] I love Fat Face.
[00:21:44] Yeah, and I met the CEO
[00:21:45] and he's a really cool guy
[00:21:46] and they literally just started like on the slopes.
[00:21:48] Like they were on the slopes
[00:21:48] and wanted to stay skiing.
[00:21:50] So they worked out like,
[00:21:51] how can we generate money
[00:21:53] still living on the slopes
[00:21:54] and skiing all our life?
[00:21:55] And so Fat Face is named after a specific
[00:21:57] like slope or piece or something like that.
[00:22:00] So anyway, they did that
[00:22:02] by appealing very much to the people
[00:22:04] that they were engaged with.
[00:22:05] They were the kind of people
[00:22:07] that they were trying to sell to.
[00:22:08] So I think a huge part of that became,
[00:22:10] they were very real.
[00:22:11] And I think that's actually,
[00:22:12] sorry, that's the thing
[00:22:13] that I think definitely comes across,
[00:22:16] particularly with younger buyers
[00:22:17] is that sincerity.
[00:22:19] And so, you know,
[00:22:20] I was at an event recently
[00:22:22] and everything felt very staged and rehearsed.
[00:22:23] And I was like,
[00:22:24] it obviously put a lot of work in,
[00:22:26] but I was like,
[00:22:26] does this actually still like connect?
[00:22:29] Or does everyone sit there looking at it
[00:22:30] thinking this is clearly staged and rehearsed?
[00:22:33] So I feel that that sincerity coming across
[00:22:35] and working in that way
[00:22:38] is definitely one of the ways
[00:22:40] that you can build up brand.
[00:22:41] I mean, I do think
[00:22:42] there's a huge amount of luck
[00:22:43] in all of these things.
[00:22:44] You know,
[00:22:46] suddenly some famous person
[00:22:47] decides they like your brand
[00:22:48] and that's it.
[00:22:49] That, you know, takes off.
[00:22:50] But I guess the other thing on that is
[00:22:51] if it does, are you ready?
[00:22:53] I mean, one of the,
[00:22:55] you know,
[00:22:55] one of the things that I've adopted
[00:22:56] from somebody I watched
[00:22:57] an interview recently was,
[00:22:59] you know,
[00:22:59] is it luck?
[00:23:00] And he goes,
[00:23:00] well, it's preparedness.
[00:23:01] And I thought that was a nice way
[00:23:02] of looking at it.
[00:23:03] It was like,
[00:23:04] you know,
[00:23:04] everyone gets a couple of lucky breaks
[00:23:05] in the lifetime,
[00:23:06] more or less.
[00:23:07] And,
[00:23:08] but are you ready to take that break?
[00:23:10] So I guess the point is like,
[00:23:11] if the next day,
[00:23:12] you know,
[00:23:13] you did get that viral thing,
[00:23:14] is your site just going to collapse?
[00:23:15] Is your,
[00:23:15] you know,
[00:23:16] is everything,
[00:23:16] are you going to look like
[00:23:17] you've built like an amateur
[00:23:18] as it were?
[00:23:19] Because you're just not expecting that.
[00:23:20] So I think that would be something like that.
[00:23:22] Are you able to scale up
[00:23:23] if it does happen?
[00:23:24] Are you able to get to that point?
[00:23:25] So,
[00:23:26] but yeah,
[00:23:27] I mean,
[00:23:28] the challenger brand thing,
[00:23:29] I think frankly,
[00:23:30] you've probably got more,
[00:23:31] more successes of a challenger brand
[00:23:32] in this day and age,
[00:23:33] frankly.
[00:23:34] I think that,
[00:23:34] you know,
[00:23:35] that would be a thing.
[00:23:36] But I do think that,
[00:23:38] yeah,
[00:23:39] Omnichannel is a huge part of that
[00:23:40] because the way that you deal with,
[00:23:44] you know,
[00:23:44] are you putting your products
[00:23:45] into marketplaces?
[00:23:46] Are you putting them into social commerce?
[00:23:47] Are you selling them in China
[00:23:48] through their apps ecosystem
[00:23:49] and stuff like that?
[00:23:50] I think you have to be aware of that
[00:23:51] because that could be a place
[00:23:52] that you could break
[00:23:53] and you could certainly break in China
[00:23:54] and be huge in China.
[00:23:55] And that could be like
[00:23:56] a crazy,
[00:23:58] like hockey stick,
[00:23:59] like overnight kind of thing.
[00:24:00] So I think just making sure
[00:24:01] you have the infrastructure behind you
[00:24:03] to be able to support it
[00:24:03] if you do break
[00:24:05] would be a big part of that.
[00:24:06] But yeah,
[00:24:07] if I really had a bulletproof answer
[00:24:09] to that,
[00:24:10] I think that,
[00:24:11] yeah,
[00:24:11] I'd be very rich at this point.
[00:24:12] So yeah.
[00:24:13] You let us know when you do.
[00:24:14] Yeah,
[00:24:14] yeah,
[00:24:15] yeah.
[00:24:15] Well,
[00:24:15] we'll know you.
[00:24:16] I mean,
[00:24:16] you won't even need any.
[00:24:17] Don't forget about us.
[00:24:20] So,
[00:24:20] I mean,
[00:24:21] I think for me,
[00:24:22] as you think about
[00:24:24] whether it's a challenger brand,
[00:24:25] which often starts out in niches,
[00:24:28] they start out with a very,
[00:24:30] very clear consumer focus
[00:24:32] and who their shopper is
[00:24:34] and like you said,
[00:24:35] where it comes from.
[00:24:37] It does feel to me
[00:24:38] like this next era
[00:24:40] is going to be growth
[00:24:42] through the amassing of niches.
[00:24:45] Like that,
[00:24:46] you know,
[00:24:47] the consumer market broadly
[00:24:49] isn't growing all that much.
[00:24:51] So you need to steal market share
[00:24:54] or convert it
[00:24:54] and or convert it a higher rate
[00:24:56] in order to be able
[00:24:58] to drive your growth.
[00:25:00] And so that goes back to,
[00:25:02] I think,
[00:25:03] you're talking about
[00:25:05] personalization
[00:25:05] or persona-ization
[00:25:07] or whatever it might be
[00:25:08] where you understand
[00:25:10] more and more
[00:25:11] of your customers,
[00:25:12] identify them
[00:25:13] when they appear to you,
[00:25:15] whether it's online
[00:25:16] or in store,
[00:25:17] and thereby,
[00:25:18] in the moment,
[00:25:20] deliver a more
[00:25:20] personal experience.
[00:25:23] So what is the role
[00:25:24] of composable
[00:25:27] in that
[00:25:28] that you're describing?
[00:25:29] Do you have any examples
[00:25:30] that you could share with us
[00:25:32] of where you've seen
[00:25:33] that working really well?
[00:25:35] Yeah,
[00:25:36] I want to be a little bit cagey
[00:25:37] on that.
[00:25:38] I'm not sure what I got
[00:25:39] signed off to talk about,
[00:25:40] but yeah,
[00:25:40] look,
[00:25:40] so there's two things
[00:25:42] I actually want to address
[00:25:43] on your point here.
[00:25:43] So firstly,
[00:25:44] composable is almost essential
[00:25:45] in a situation like that,
[00:25:46] right?
[00:25:46] Because
[00:25:48] firstly,
[00:25:48] you have to be headless
[00:25:49] to deliver Omnichannel
[00:25:50] unless you really want
[00:25:51] to do a ton of work
[00:25:52] and not only a ton of work
[00:25:53] to build,
[00:25:54] but also a ton of work
[00:25:54] to maintain it
[00:25:55] because you now have to
[00:25:55] maintain the same functionality
[00:25:57] and data in multiple
[00:25:58] different places.
[00:25:59] So basically,
[00:25:59] everyone's going to go headless
[00:26:01] to deliver that.
[00:26:02] So I tend to think of headless
[00:26:03] and composable as like a tree.
[00:26:05] So headless is like,
[00:26:06] it's like the trunk
[00:26:07] in the middle of it
[00:26:07] and headless is delivering
[00:26:08] the branches,
[00:26:09] which is all the different channels.
[00:26:10] So native app,
[00:26:11] website,
[00:26:12] social commerce,
[00:26:13] all of these different things.
[00:26:14] And then the composable side
[00:26:15] is like the roots,
[00:26:16] which is like all the various
[00:26:17] services fulfilling this.
[00:26:18] So there's a couple of things.
[00:26:19] You mentioned niche for a start.
[00:26:21] So like you're probably
[00:26:22] not going to find
[00:26:22] a major platform
[00:26:23] is going to build
[00:26:25] a very specific
[00:26:26] vertically aligned
[00:26:27] niche product
[00:26:27] that you may want to use.
[00:26:28] So that's an area
[00:26:29] where composability
[00:26:30] really comes in.
[00:26:31] So an example,
[00:26:32] I think from quite a while ago
[00:26:33] was working with Lancome
[00:26:35] and I think they actually
[00:26:35] bought the technology company
[00:26:36] that did this.
[00:26:37] They had the virtual try on
[00:26:38] so you could try on lipstick,
[00:26:39] try on makeup
[00:26:40] and stuff like that
[00:26:40] inside the app.
[00:26:42] So that kind of,
[00:26:42] that's a great example
[00:26:43] of why you would go composable
[00:26:45] because you would buy
[00:26:46] that product to go in there
[00:26:47] and you know,
[00:26:49] you'd buy that specific
[00:26:50] niche functionality.
[00:26:51] You wouldn't expect
[00:26:52] a major homeless vendor
[00:26:54] to supply that.
[00:26:54] The same as things
[00:26:55] like car configurators
[00:26:56] and stuff like that.
[00:26:57] So in all those
[00:26:57] different kind of areas
[00:26:58] you would put that in.
[00:27:00] And so this is the way
[00:27:01] that composability
[00:27:03] is really supplying
[00:27:04] this kind of functionality
[00:27:05] into that.
[00:27:05] And many people think
[00:27:06] of composability largely
[00:27:07] in the sense
[00:27:09] of the main website,
[00:27:10] but obviously
[00:27:11] the kind of stuff
[00:27:11] you're doing
[00:27:12] and things like
[00:27:12] clienteling solutions,
[00:27:13] kiosk solutions,
[00:27:14] there's a lot of functionality
[00:27:15] you can add there.
[00:27:17] I mean,
[00:27:17] but to address
[00:27:18] this sort of larger point here,
[00:27:20] one of the things
[00:27:20] that's great about my role
[00:27:21] is it's a global role.
[00:27:22] And frankly,
[00:27:24] no one's going to like me
[00:27:25] for this comment, right?
[00:27:27] But one of the things
[00:27:28] that I think
[00:27:28] is standing a little bit
[00:27:29] against the West,
[00:27:30] you talk about
[00:27:30] the challenger thing, right?
[00:27:31] And one of the ways
[00:27:32] that I think the challenger
[00:27:32] can come up
[00:27:33] and do a really good job here
[00:27:34] is I think the thing
[00:27:35] that's standing
[00:27:36] against innovation
[00:27:36] in the West right now
[00:27:37] is legacy.
[00:27:38] And I get it,
[00:27:39] legacy is so hard
[00:27:40] to move past, right?
[00:27:41] But legacy in the sense
[00:27:42] of the internal processes,
[00:27:46] the internal systems,
[00:27:47] the internal everything, right?
[00:27:48] And one of the things
[00:27:48] I've been doing
[00:27:48] a lot of work in the Far East,
[00:27:49] I've been doing
[00:27:50] a lot of work in LATAM.
[00:27:51] And every time
[00:27:52] I go to those places,
[00:27:53] there are often,
[00:27:54] you know,
[00:27:54] you could deal with
[00:27:54] a company that
[00:27:56] in LATAM
[00:27:56] that is a household name
[00:27:59] that is a national company
[00:28:00] that is doing
[00:28:00] their first website
[00:28:01] right now.
[00:28:03] So huge existing,
[00:28:04] you know,
[00:28:05] existing audience already
[00:28:06] and you're still building.
[00:28:07] So this gives you
[00:28:08] an opportunity to
[00:28:11] innovate really truly
[00:28:12] because you're not tied
[00:28:13] to existing practice models.
[00:28:14] Like one thing I feel
[00:28:15] that always surprises me
[00:28:16] is that if you think about it,
[00:28:18] we talked back
[00:28:19] to that wonderful experience
[00:28:20] of buying from the corner shop,
[00:28:21] something like that, right?
[00:28:22] And,
[00:28:23] but if you take it out
[00:28:24] to what is a website,
[00:28:26] it's really sort of
[00:28:26] trying to emulate a catalog,
[00:28:28] which in itself
[00:28:28] wasn't exactly
[00:28:29] a great buying situation.
[00:28:30] So what I'm getting at
[00:28:31] is like there are lots
[00:28:32] and lots of better ways
[00:28:33] to do this thing.
[00:28:34] So it's like the more you can,
[00:28:36] the more you can innovate
[00:28:37] in that sense,
[00:28:38] the more you can change
[00:28:39] that buying experience.
[00:28:40] I think you can really
[00:28:42] differentiate yourself.
[00:28:43] And this is where I feel
[00:28:43] that in those countries
[00:28:44] where they don't have
[00:28:45] that existing,
[00:28:46] like we bought this
[00:28:47] and built this,
[00:28:48] it's so hard
[00:28:49] to break away from that
[00:28:50] because even if you
[00:28:50] change your system,
[00:28:51] even if you completely
[00:28:52] replatform,
[00:28:53] other systems are sort of
[00:28:54] expecting you to behave
[00:28:55] a certain way
[00:28:56] and stuff like that.
[00:28:56] So I'm seeing that
[00:28:57] some of these companies
[00:28:58] that have done that
[00:28:59] have started from scratch
[00:29:00] and have started
[00:29:01] with a different area
[00:29:02] and just have
[00:29:03] a different expectation.
[00:29:05] They're doing
[00:29:05] more innovative things.
[00:29:06] I would say partly
[00:29:07] because a lot of those
[00:29:08] countries don't have
[00:29:10] a big desktop,
[00:29:11] laptop,
[00:29:13] computer infrastructure
[00:29:14] in there.
[00:29:14] Most of the consumers,
[00:29:15] like 99% of the consumers
[00:29:17] are coming in on phones.
[00:29:18] I think that's been
[00:29:18] a more innovative area,
[00:29:19] frankly,
[00:29:20] just because of the way
[00:29:21] that phones have
[00:29:22] all of these cool
[00:29:23] kind of things
[00:29:23] like the ability
[00:29:24] to know your location
[00:29:25] and take photographs
[00:29:26] and all of these things
[00:29:27] have just been built
[00:29:27] into them since day one.
[00:29:29] I think that's
[00:29:30] the kind of area
[00:29:31] that I'm seeing
[00:29:31] a lot of innovation in.
[00:29:33] But of course,
[00:29:34] you do see some companies,
[00:29:35] this is where
[00:29:35] the incubator idea starts up
[00:29:36] and I think
[00:29:37] obviously huge companies
[00:29:38] do this,
[00:29:39] but I think sometimes
[00:29:40] that's where the challenge
[00:29:41] I think can come from
[00:29:42] is that kind of like
[00:29:43] start with an incubator
[00:29:44] and don't rely
[00:29:45] on your existing architecture
[00:29:46] and go after that kind of thing
[00:29:47] and do something new
[00:29:48] because frankly,
[00:29:49] why should shopping
[00:29:50] be like looking
[00:29:51] through a catalog
[00:29:51] when it could be like,
[00:29:53] say,
[00:29:53] watching a movie?
[00:29:54] Wouldn't that be more interesting?
[00:29:55] I mean,
[00:29:56] so I feel that like
[00:29:57] there's a lot of playing a game.
[00:29:59] You know,
[00:29:59] like,
[00:29:59] you know,
[00:29:59] imagine if your shopping experience
[00:30:01] is more like playing a video game
[00:30:02] or something like that.
[00:30:03] Like,
[00:30:03] I feel that we still,
[00:30:05] you know,
[00:30:05] there's a lot of different things
[00:30:06] like that where we could
[00:30:07] really do this.
[00:30:07] I mean,
[00:30:08] the one thing I've said for ages
[00:30:09] and I really will have no money
[00:30:11] if this happens is,
[00:30:12] you know,
[00:30:12] if I stop,
[00:30:13] say,
[00:30:13] if I'm watching Amazon Prime
[00:30:14] on TV
[00:30:14] and I stop,
[00:30:16] there's an x-ray feature
[00:30:16] which shows me all the names
[00:30:18] of the actors
[00:30:19] in the scene,
[00:30:19] which is really,
[00:30:20] really good for me
[00:30:20] because I am that annoying guy
[00:30:21] who's like,
[00:30:21] where do I know that person from?
[00:30:23] Um,
[00:30:23] but imagine if it had like
[00:30:25] all the products there.
[00:30:26] Imagine you could just,
[00:30:27] and I'm not talking about
[00:30:28] where the fashion
[00:30:29] trying to find it.
[00:30:30] Yeah,
[00:30:30] everything,
[00:30:31] anything in that scene right now,
[00:30:32] you could literally press buy,
[00:30:34] not go find it
[00:30:35] or try and search on Google
[00:30:36] for what they were wearing
[00:30:37] immediate buy,
[00:30:38] but I will never have money again
[00:30:40] if that,
[00:30:42] but no,
[00:30:43] I mean,
[00:30:43] all joking aside,
[00:30:44] that would be an amazing thing
[00:30:45] because from every aspect to it,
[00:30:46] it's an engaging way
[00:30:47] of shopping in a way,
[00:30:48] but it's all,
[00:30:49] and that's the thing I,
[00:30:50] I feel,
[00:30:51] sorry,
[00:30:51] this has kind of come up
[00:30:52] on the periphery
[00:30:53] as a question already.
[00:30:54] This is where I feel
[00:30:54] the future of shopping is,
[00:30:56] shopping when you don't realize
[00:30:56] you're shopping.
[00:30:57] So shopping is what I call
[00:30:59] contextual shopping,
[00:31:00] but shopping as a side effect
[00:31:01] of other things you're doing.
[00:31:03] Um,
[00:31:04] and I feel,
[00:31:05] apart from like
[00:31:06] the consumer experience,
[00:31:06] look at it from the,
[00:31:07] every other part of that,
[00:31:08] like,
[00:31:09] this is a very,
[00:31:10] very easy way of powering,
[00:31:11] um,
[00:31:12] funding of,
[00:31:12] of media,
[00:31:13] uh,
[00:31:14] but it's also a way of,
[00:31:16] um,
[00:31:18] you know,
[00:31:18] instead of people like
[00:31:19] putting in money up front
[00:31:20] for this
[00:31:21] and just saying,
[00:31:22] we hope it works.
[00:31:22] You could just simply get
[00:31:23] a percentage of sales
[00:31:24] through that.
[00:31:25] So there's like,
[00:31:26] anyway,
[00:31:26] there's,
[00:31:26] there's a whole bunch
[00:31:27] of different ways
[00:31:27] that that could work,
[00:31:28] but you could see,
[00:31:28] you could see what I'm
[00:31:29] getting at,
[00:31:29] right?
[00:31:29] This is a,
[00:31:30] no,
[00:31:30] I mean,
[00:31:31] it's a,
[00:31:31] it's one of the richest
[00:31:32] environments to be inspired
[00:31:34] in when you're watching
[00:31:36] characters in a show.
[00:31:37] that you are into
[00:31:39] and then they show up
[00:31:41] wearing something,
[00:31:42] then you can instantly
[00:31:43] find that.
[00:31:44] You don't have to switch
[00:31:44] to your phone.
[00:31:45] You don't have,
[00:31:46] you,
[00:31:46] you can just go,
[00:31:47] uh,
[00:31:48] yes,
[00:31:48] please send me to,
[00:31:50] I love that.
[00:31:52] And so do you feel like
[00:31:53] that,
[00:31:55] not,
[00:31:55] not necessarily,
[00:31:57] you know,
[00:31:57] TV show buying in particular,
[00:31:59] but is,
[00:32:00] is this that we're talking
[00:32:02] about this sort of
[00:32:02] contextual shopping wave
[00:32:05] five of composable
[00:32:06] commerce or what's,
[00:32:07] what's next?
[00:32:09] Yeah.
[00:32:09] Cause I think wave,
[00:32:10] well,
[00:32:10] I think in the sense
[00:32:11] that it comes into the
[00:32:12] like proper omni-channel,
[00:32:14] which I think must be
[00:32:15] wave five,
[00:32:16] right?
[00:32:16] Which is like,
[00:32:16] you know,
[00:32:17] average businesses selling,
[00:32:20] you know,
[00:32:20] through four or five
[00:32:22] channels,
[00:32:22] at least simultaneously.
[00:32:24] And like I say,
[00:32:24] that could be a couple
[00:32:25] of social commerce channels.
[00:32:26] It could be marketplaces,
[00:32:27] obviously a website,
[00:32:28] maybe a native app,
[00:32:29] obviously potentially some
[00:32:30] kind of physical store,
[00:32:31] even if you're not,
[00:32:32] even if you're a pure place,
[00:32:33] sometimes they have like
[00:32:34] pop-up stores,
[00:32:35] um,
[00:32:35] just these different ways
[00:32:36] of selling with it.
[00:32:37] And I think that's got
[00:32:39] to be wave five,
[00:32:39] right?
[00:32:40] Is the,
[00:32:40] is the,
[00:32:41] and then so the way I
[00:32:42] envision something like
[00:32:43] contextual,
[00:32:43] I often think about things
[00:32:45] like I always use
[00:32:46] photography as a fairly
[00:32:47] sort of mainstream example,
[00:32:48] but you know,
[00:32:49] um,
[00:32:50] imagine you're looking
[00:32:51] to do something.
[00:32:52] I don't want to take
[00:32:52] a photograph of a sunrise
[00:32:53] and you go to an article
[00:32:54] that's effectively telling
[00:32:55] you how to do it.
[00:32:56] And the guy in the article
[00:32:57] is an expert photographer
[00:32:58] says,
[00:32:58] I use these lenses
[00:32:59] and you don't even have
[00:33:00] to leave the site.
[00:33:01] You can literally,
[00:33:02] as you like hover over it,
[00:33:04] it pops up,
[00:33:04] you click on it,
[00:33:05] you buy it,
[00:33:05] you're done
[00:33:06] because the browser
[00:33:07] knows who you are,
[00:33:08] you know,
[00:33:09] um,
[00:33:09] and,
[00:33:10] and that's it,
[00:33:10] right?
[00:33:11] And then there's some
[00:33:11] form of attribution
[00:33:12] between the two things.
[00:33:14] But I mean,
[00:33:14] I feel like why,
[00:33:16] I feel like the sense
[00:33:17] of a traditional website
[00:33:18] that we have right now,
[00:33:20] might be starting
[00:33:21] to go away
[00:33:21] in the,
[00:33:22] in the sense of this,
[00:33:23] like,
[00:33:23] like you keep saying,
[00:33:23] like the catalog experience.
[00:33:25] Um,
[00:33:25] I do quite a lot of work
[00:33:26] in B2B as well.
[00:33:27] And I find that sometimes,
[00:33:29] again,
[00:33:31] I guess my frustration
[00:33:32] in all of these things
[00:33:33] is like,
[00:33:34] this is the potential
[00:33:34] for the future
[00:33:35] and everyone does
[00:33:35] fairly mainstream,
[00:33:36] straightforward,
[00:33:37] like same as everything else.
[00:33:38] But there's a potential
[00:33:39] for loads of exciting things
[00:33:40] with terms of interfaces.
[00:33:41] Because if you think
[00:33:42] about a B2B buying experience,
[00:33:44] a lot of people
[00:33:44] only have the right
[00:33:44] to do like,
[00:33:45] make a suggestion.
[00:33:46] I would like more
[00:33:47] of those things
[00:33:47] and somebody else
[00:33:48] approves it
[00:33:48] and stuff like that.
[00:33:49] So you get the idea
[00:33:49] of very limited use interfaces.
[00:33:52] The most example,
[00:33:53] the most obvious example,
[00:33:54] everyone can,
[00:33:54] do everyone remember
[00:33:55] the dash button thing
[00:33:55] where you could basically
[00:33:56] press that button
[00:33:57] and then it would reorder
[00:33:58] stuff for you?
[00:33:59] Yeah,
[00:33:59] well,
[00:33:59] there's a good example
[00:33:59] of an incredibly
[00:34:00] single use interface,
[00:34:02] right?
[00:34:02] So I think that kind of stuff,
[00:34:03] the idea,
[00:34:04] and if you think about,
[00:34:05] I mean,
[00:34:05] obviously,
[00:34:06] I have to kind of say this,
[00:34:08] but,
[00:34:08] you know,
[00:34:08] if you think about
[00:34:09] the agentic approach
[00:34:10] that Salesforce
[00:34:11] is taking right now,
[00:34:12] the idea of interacting,
[00:34:13] again,
[00:34:14] going back to that,
[00:34:14] you know,
[00:34:15] man in the shop,
[00:34:16] single one-to-one
[00:34:16] kind of thing,
[00:34:17] having a kind of
[00:34:18] one-to-one conversation
[00:34:19] through some kind
[00:34:20] of messaging channel
[00:34:22] with an agent
[00:34:23] that's actually able
[00:34:24] to take action
[00:34:24] on your behalf,
[00:34:25] I think you're just
[00:34:26] going to see a huge,
[00:34:27] so that could be
[00:34:28] the biggest change
[00:34:29] of UX for online buying
[00:34:31] that we've really seen
[00:34:32] since online buying started
[00:34:34] because that ability
[00:34:35] to not really go
[00:34:37] through a website
[00:34:38] as we know it,
[00:34:39] but simply message
[00:34:40] a website
[00:34:41] or message an agent
[00:34:42] at a website
[00:34:43] and just ask a question
[00:34:44] and ask a couple
[00:34:44] of questions
[00:34:45] and this idea
[00:34:46] of going into
[00:34:47] contextual conversations,
[00:34:48] so,
[00:34:49] you know,
[00:34:49] hey,
[00:34:50] I've got a big
[00:34:53] Thanksgiving dinner,
[00:34:54] I've got a big
[00:34:54] Christmas dinner,
[00:34:55] I've got to do like that,
[00:34:56] I've got 20 guests,
[00:34:57] you know,
[00:34:57] three of them are vegetarian,
[00:34:58] this one can't eat nuts,
[00:34:59] blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
[00:35:00] blah,
[00:35:01] I've got,
[00:35:01] this is my budget,
[00:35:02] give me,
[00:35:02] sorry,
[00:35:03] should I have clapped?
[00:35:05] You can all thank me later,
[00:35:06] podcast listeners,
[00:35:07] yeah,
[00:35:08] but no,
[00:35:08] I was going to say,
[00:35:09] you know,
[00:35:10] this is my budget,
[00:35:11] boom,
[00:35:12] you know,
[00:35:12] and I have to make
[00:35:13] this many meals,
[00:35:14] do it for me
[00:35:15] and I think that
[00:35:16] is already starting
[00:35:17] to turn up,
[00:35:17] I mean,
[00:35:17] people are asking
[00:35:18] those kind of questions
[00:35:18] to chat GPT
[00:35:19] but imagine you just do that
[00:35:20] and it's like,
[00:35:21] here's your buy button,
[00:35:22] you can customize it,
[00:35:23] so I think that idea
[00:35:24] of taking a lot of that,
[00:35:25] you know,
[00:35:26] and again,
[00:35:26] going back to the comments
[00:35:27] you made,
[00:35:28] we talked about earlier on,
[00:35:29] like, hey,
[00:35:30] you know what,
[00:35:31] sports shoes,
[00:35:32] does this runner wear
[00:35:32] or does this football player wear
[00:35:34] or so on and so forth
[00:35:35] like that,
[00:35:35] just being able to kind of
[00:35:36] pull those contextual questions in
[00:35:38] and have an agent
[00:35:39] kind of help you with that
[00:35:40] and the agent can obviously
[00:35:41] do all of the other things as well,
[00:35:43] so just taking you
[00:35:44] to a personalized
[00:35:45] effectively checkout
[00:35:46] and that's it,
[00:35:46] so I think
[00:35:47] this is going to break down
[00:35:49] the concept of
[00:35:51] the full website
[00:35:52] I think a lot more,
[00:35:53] I think the website journey
[00:35:54] that we have right now
[00:35:55] is a fairly straightforward funnel
[00:35:56] so I guess
[00:35:57] anyone who's got a fantastic way
[00:35:59] of tracking this
[00:36:00] is going to be
[00:36:00] make a fortune
[00:36:01] because that's going to be
[00:36:02] the most difficult thing,
[00:36:03] right?
[00:36:03] Let's say how do we work out
[00:36:04] where people went
[00:36:05] through their journeys,
[00:36:05] I guess.
[00:36:07] We're recording this
[00:36:08] right after Thanksgiving holiday
[00:36:11] and
[00:36:12] my husband and I
[00:36:13] were driving
[00:36:13] to see his family
[00:36:14] in New York
[00:36:15] and we were about,
[00:36:16] I don't know,
[00:36:17] 20 minutes from the city
[00:36:18] and he turned around
[00:36:20] and looked in the back of the car
[00:36:21] and turned back to me
[00:36:22] and said,
[00:36:22] where's your luggage?
[00:36:24] Oh!
[00:36:26] I had left
[00:36:27] I mean thankfully
[00:36:28] I had my toiletries
[00:36:29] it was in my backpack
[00:36:30] but I had nothing else
[00:36:32] other than what I was wearing
[00:36:34] and I never go shopping
[00:36:35] you know this about me, Lauren
[00:36:36] I hate shopping
[00:36:37] Yes, you hate it.
[00:36:38] Yeah, no,
[00:36:39] I go one place
[00:36:40] I'm like give me things
[00:36:41] and then I never go back again
[00:36:43] so I
[00:36:44] I literally
[00:36:44] had to spend
[00:36:45] the entire Wednesday
[00:36:47] before Thanksgiving
[00:36:48] going from store to store
[00:36:50] trying to put together
[00:36:51] it was most miserable
[00:36:52] and if
[00:36:53] if a bot
[00:36:54] if I'd be able to say
[00:36:55] to a bot
[00:36:55] okay
[00:36:56] I need like three days
[00:36:58] Buy me clothes
[00:36:59] Exactly
[00:36:59] so
[00:37:01] that was my humility
[00:37:03] I know
[00:37:03] it's
[00:37:04] we had the dog
[00:37:05] we had the dog's food
[00:37:07] we had everything
[00:37:09] we had the pies
[00:37:10] we had everything
[00:37:11] but my clothing
[00:37:13] well that's
[00:37:14] I'm looking forward
[00:37:15] to Wade 5
[00:37:16] Jay
[00:37:17] yeah well
[00:37:17] I think it's a great example
[00:37:19] and I think the thing is
[00:37:20] I think
[00:37:20] my stupidity is a great example
[00:37:22] yes
[00:37:23] but I mean we all do it
[00:37:24] right
[00:37:24] I got to the airport
[00:37:25] the other day
[00:37:25] to go to the States
[00:37:26] and realized
[00:37:26] I'd left my wallet behind
[00:37:27] and you know what
[00:37:28] I was like
[00:37:28] I don't need it
[00:37:29] I can use my phone
[00:37:30] and I did
[00:37:31] I went to the
[00:37:33] you know
[00:37:33] the
[00:37:34] we call it
[00:37:35] bureau de change
[00:37:35] in the UK
[00:37:36] they use the French word
[00:37:37] but you know
[00:37:37] I mean the cash exchange
[00:37:38] currency exchange
[00:37:39] right
[00:37:39] I used my phone
[00:37:41] I got out
[00:37:41] a couple of hundred dollars
[00:37:42] just so I had cash
[00:37:43] if I needed it
[00:37:44] and then I just used my phone
[00:37:44] the whole thing
[00:37:45] and I didn't need to use my
[00:37:46] I didn't need to take my wallet
[00:37:47] at all
[00:37:48] so
[00:37:49] but I guess what I was going to say
[00:37:51] is you're exactly right there
[00:37:52] and think about some of the things
[00:37:53] that are problems
[00:37:53] right
[00:37:54] imagine
[00:37:55] your details
[00:37:57] like your feet measurement
[00:37:58] and your leg measurement
[00:37:59] all these kinds of stuff like that
[00:38:00] are properly stored
[00:38:02] and the
[00:38:03] agent already knows
[00:38:04] well these guys tend to go big
[00:38:05] so this size is going to fit you
[00:38:07] for this brand
[00:38:07] I mean that would solve
[00:38:09] like nearly
[00:38:09] you know
[00:38:10] I mean I
[00:38:11] well
[00:38:11] that would solve so many problems
[00:38:12] because one of the biggest problems
[00:38:13] in the fashion industry
[00:38:14] I know right now
[00:38:15] is high levels of returns
[00:38:16] and if companies can say
[00:38:17] you know
[00:38:18] if you can sort of
[00:38:20] prioritize
[00:38:20] this kind of idea
[00:38:21] of kind of
[00:38:22] having a really
[00:38:23] really accurate measurement
[00:38:24] of yourself
[00:38:24] so that you're not likely
[00:38:25] to get
[00:38:26] you know
[00:38:26] okay people are always going to return
[00:38:27] they might not like it
[00:38:28] they might not like how it looks
[00:38:29] on them and stuff like that
[00:38:30] but at least
[00:38:30] you're going to cut down returns
[00:38:31] from things like people ordering
[00:38:32] you know
[00:38:33] because people
[00:38:33] have three sizes
[00:38:34] if I'm ordering online
[00:38:36] don't tell me to go get a measuring tape
[00:38:38] and try to figure out
[00:38:38] what the size of my head
[00:38:40] just tell me the fit
[00:38:40] stretch
[00:38:41] no stretch
[00:38:41] no I really want
[00:38:43] I would go somewhere
[00:38:44] for a scan
[00:38:45] as long as everyone
[00:38:46] that I wanted to shop with
[00:38:48] then had the results
[00:38:49] of that scan
[00:38:50] yeah
[00:38:50] I would totally go somewhere
[00:38:52] and get scanned
[00:38:53] so that I don't have to
[00:38:54] figure it out
[00:38:55] because it
[00:38:56] anyway
[00:38:56] sorry
[00:38:57] this shows
[00:38:57] about me
[00:38:59] no but you make a really good point
[00:39:00] there which is like
[00:39:01] how much data
[00:39:02] you want to store
[00:39:03] on your own phone
[00:39:04] so that you don't need
[00:39:05] to pass that data
[00:39:06] on to the stores
[00:39:07] that's the kind of
[00:39:08] an interesting thing as well
[00:39:09] which is again
[00:39:09] goes to that contextual payment
[00:39:10] like I could be in the middle
[00:39:11] of reading an article
[00:39:12] and this thing is like
[00:39:13] buying and I'm like
[00:39:13] click
[00:39:14] it knows my address
[00:39:15] it knows my payment details
[00:39:16] I mean already that stuff
[00:39:17] is kind of stored
[00:39:18] in things like Apple Pay
[00:39:19] and stuff like that anyway
[00:39:20] addresses and payment
[00:39:21] but it's an interesting
[00:39:22] yeah
[00:39:23] like I think the idea
[00:39:23] of having
[00:39:24] certainly for clothing
[00:39:25] some form of profile
[00:39:26] that's ideally universal
[00:39:27] would be
[00:39:28] would be great
[00:39:29] and yeah
[00:39:30] yeah
[00:39:30] now there's a lot
[00:39:32] of different exciting options here
[00:39:34] well James
[00:39:35] thank you so much
[00:39:36] for coming on
[00:39:36] and not only telling us
[00:39:38] where things are at today
[00:39:40] but prognosticating
[00:39:41] for the future on this
[00:39:42] because I totally agree
[00:39:43] the way the consumer
[00:39:45] is behaving now
[00:39:46] and it will only get
[00:39:48] easier for them
[00:39:49] to behave that way
[00:39:50] means we need
[00:39:51] to solve these things
[00:39:52] in a much more
[00:39:54] agile
[00:39:54] and creative way
[00:39:56] to be able to
[00:39:58] to get the growth
[00:40:00] that we deserve
[00:40:01] out of those efforts
[00:40:02] so
[00:40:02] thank you so much
[00:40:04] for joining us
[00:40:05] and sharing all this
[00:40:06] with us
[00:40:06] we appreciate it
[00:40:07] Peter, Lauren
[00:40:08] it's been a huge
[00:40:09] huge pleasure
[00:40:09] thank you so much
[00:40:10] thanks again to James
[00:40:12] for sharing the path
[00:40:13] to the next wave
[00:40:14] of composable commerce
[00:40:15] we'll be digging into
[00:40:16] all the waves of commerce
[00:40:18] at our upcoming
[00:40:18] Digital Shelf Summit
[00:40:19] in New Orleans
[00:40:20] in April
[00:40:21] get more info
[00:40:22] and register
[00:40:23] at
[00:40:24] digitalshelfsummit.com
[00:40:25] thanks for being
[00:40:26] part of our community
[00:40:28] thank you