[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age. Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. In the 2024 holiday shopping season, use of AI chatbot shopping rose 6,000% over the prior year, according to Adobe.
[00:00:28] Those are searches driven by the intent of the shopper. And many of those queries never even make it to a product page. Winning your place in those shopping journeys will require mastering the new capabilities of Generative Engine Optimization, or GEO. Max Sinclair, Founder and CEO at Ecomtent, joined Lauren Levack-Gilbert and me to provide a primer of what's changing and what's possible to start seizing the opportunity faster than your competitors.
[00:00:55] Early movers advantage is at stake, and the answer won't be more keywords. Max, welcome to the podcast. We are so excited to have you here today. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:01:09] Well, just when I thought I knew what SEO was all about, all of a sudden, there's a whole new thing, a whole new sort of set of capabilities and knowledge and something that's feeding the consumer experience that our customers and listeners have to be able to wrap their arms around.
[00:01:29] And that's generative engine optimization. Like how do you optimize for the agents out there that are the fuel of a mission-based shopper in some chatbot somewhere? And you spend a lot of your days diving into how all that works and how the algorithms and sort of where this new world will come to life and how it's going to disrupt shopping and then, of course, the lives of our listeners.
[00:01:56] So first of all, we'd love to talk just some of the shifts you are seeing out there in the world of search and shopping. Sure. So 60% of US adults have used an AI chatbot in the last 30 days. So that is ChatGPT, that is Rufus or Plexity or some other AI search engine.
[00:02:19] So ChatGPT is now getting a billion messages a day for reference. Google gets 8.5 billion searches a day. So, of course, Google is ahead. But I mean, the catch up is staggering that they've kind of closed that gap from zero in two, three years.
[00:02:41] And what is also very interesting to me is how PeopleShop is changing. So 50% of Plexity users ask a follow-up question. We don't have data on ChatGPT or Rufus, but you can imagine it would be similar. And additionally, the questions are getting longer. So the average perplexity query is between 10 and 11 words compared to Google, which is two or three on average.
[00:03:08] So these are definitely getting more traction and it's also changing how we all are kind of interacting and searching and finding information. I love what that says. I mean, first of all, getting 60% of US adults to do anything is like amazing. So when you think of the rapid nature of the growth and the use of these tools, whether in some cases the consumer knows that's what they're doing or not, is a really impressive number.
[00:03:36] And then I love the follow-up question. That really goes to the center of what this is about, which is the ability of a consumer to go on a mission and get the answers they need to make a decision as quickly as possible. So within these stats are really kind of the storytelling of how the world is changing.
[00:03:58] Absolutely. I mean, everyone listening, I imagine, has probably done this themselves so they can easily imagine how you would do some research on ChatGPT, ask it a quick question. It's probably a daily usage, I imagine, for most of your listeners. And that extends beyond kind of those who are plugged into technology. And it's really kind of widespread now across the population.
[00:04:20] So it's definitely a shift that sellers, retailers, brands, agencies need to be thinking about today because we've already, you know, we're at 2025 now. We're at that point of kind of mass adoption, you know, beyond when this all launched and was kind of the hype in 2022. You know, I think we've arrived at it. And another interesting stat I'll just throw out there because I'm enjoying the stats.
[00:04:46] So do you guys know how long it took to get a million users on the Internet? Months. 20 years is the answer. I was going to say. Okay, years. Years. And do you know how long it took to get a million users onto ChatGPT? A couple hours. Five days. So the adoption curve here is unimaginably faster than kind of like the previous technology shifts we've seen.
[00:05:15] And it's one that people need to be thinking about. And there's no one dominant player right now, right? Like a ChatGPT versus a Rufus versus a perplexity versus like Google has been, air quote, the dominant search engine for years, right? But now it's dispersed across many different types of LLMs. Would you say that? Or do you think there's like a clear leader?
[00:05:38] So I think we, A, I think this is great because I, you know, I'm generally pro competition and I think it brings innovation. But I think we're going to move to a place where we go to different engines because they're specialized for different things. So Amazon and Rufus obviously will be the one, you know, the best one to research products for. You know, some would argue there already is. Some, you know, others would say, oh, Rufus is rubbish.
[00:06:06] I personally, you know, bought multiple products from Rufus. So I'm a fan. But I mean, it's clear that Amazon is going to win in this space. So, you know, there's no way they're going to kind of give up that e-commerce one unless like Shopify launched something drastic. Although interestingly, Shopify have done an integration with perplexity. And that's the second one. And typically the perplexity user are kind of higher income, you know, tech inclined kind of folks.
[00:06:32] So I don't know if your users have come across it yet, but it's a probably the best one for research and just understanding information. And then, of course, Google is unlikely to really go anywhere. They already have AI overviews and we can imagine that increasing. And then you could say, well, what about like a co-pilot for work or, you know, Bing? And like, you know, I would imagine that, you know, other players will kind of enter with a early, maybe with Apple.
[00:07:00] And in some regard, when they get kind of Apple intelligence working properly, you know, maybe that is going to feature for more personal stuff. Who knows? Right. So I can imagine us going to a place where we have we're using different kind of AI search engines for different needs. And it means that, you know, as brands and retailers and agencies need to be thinking about all of these different kind of search engines now. And it's not as easy as just being like we're going to optimize for Google.
[00:07:29] And then, you know, we're kind of done. I don't know, though, I wonder, I don't know about you all. Like, I struggle with the number of stupid streaming services I have. The thought of me also needing to remember which engine I go to, to which thing. I don't know. I feel like you pay for those services, right, Peter? Shut up. Yes.
[00:07:56] However, I just, I'm not sure I was going besides my ridiculousness. I agree. The streaming is very annoying, especially for, you know, the UK listeners. If you have some will know, like, the Premier League is about on six different channels, including Amazon now. So it's impossible to legally watch, like, the Premier League in full unless you're paying kind of like thousands of dollars to Sky and to Amazon. So it's definitely annoying.
[00:08:23] But I think when it comes to search, I think it's a little bit different. I mean, I may, obviously, I'm in the kind of very much the early adopter mindset. But I'm a paid subscriber to ChatGPT and Perplexity and Claude. And I use them kind of, I see the different engines are good for different things. So Claude is less good for searching, but it's kind of very good for writing blogs and articles.
[00:08:50] And it has a much more human sounding voice, even though it's not connected to the Internet. So not very helpful for search. So, you know, I already see this kind of, in my own behavior, having these different uses. And I think it can be helpful because you know what they're good for and you're happy to go, you know, to different ones for them. Like shops, right?
[00:09:14] You're not going to, apart from Amazon, right online, like in the real world, you're going to go to different shops for specialized things. You don't want to buy everything in one shop necessarily. And Max, there's a general sense of anxiety around AI. Making choices for consumers, writing blogs, having the wrong tone, saying the wrong thing.
[00:09:37] What is the implication with GEO and with AI agents and brands as they think about using this and integrating more into search and how products are found and how consumers are interacting? Yeah, well, I'm going to put my tin hat on and I'm going to say that AI has been making decisions for us for years, as we all know. And I think more in a much more problematic way than the anxiety that generative AI brings.
[00:10:07] So generative AI is obviously when you're creating new content like product listings or blogs or whatever you want to do there. I think there's a lot less. And I think they're very good. Certainly content's very good, but I'm sure others are good as well at kind of controlling for brand voice and the rest of it. I don't think it's particularly hard. Yes, if you're using something out of chat GPT, it's not going to be perfect because it's, you know, like it's not built to kind of sound like your brand.
[00:10:37] But it's quite easy to build some infrastructure and to, you know, train the AI on a bunch of brand voice and make stuff in your brand voice when you're brand visual. That's not challenging. But I think the bigger detriment of AI has been in, you know, the historical deterministic stuff and on, you know, particularly with social media and the algorithms there and how they, you know,
[00:11:01] they literally shift our thinking and I think it's a big problem, you know, TikTok and Twitter, I think on different maybe political spectrums, you're doing different things, right? But they're definitely, you know, drip by drip influencing how we all think. And that to me is a much more present and dangerous kind of implication of AI technology than like generative AI, which I think is relatively benign.
[00:11:27] You're just creating a new product listing, a new blog, you know, a new image of your product. And, you know, I think that's less scary, really. I don't know whether I can rate the scare factor for each, but certainly we see, you know, I've forgotten who said this to me, but AI, you know, lies, but it lies with great ability or something like that.
[00:11:53] Just that the trust factor, you know, certainly when I think of our listeners, a lot of what they are trying to bring to market is the truth of their products and clear answers. And, and it lives, it, and when you get that wrong, there's liability that comes with that. There's fines, there's consumer harm, there's brand.
[00:12:15] And so when, when you're having non-humans generate content, then there is the concern that that liability will somehow shift or. So I think that's where the trust issue. I think it's a fair question. And I would, I would counter that. And I'll counter that with, with the example, maybe of like AI cars, right. And, and Waymo. So, you know, people may be scared.
[00:12:44] And I spent some time in San Francisco to get in a Waymo conceptually, because there's no driver. But the reality is, it's a lot safer. Like as, as they, in their marketing, they say, we're like the most experienced driver in the world that, you know, they, they have that, they are a lot safer. And actually, if you think about getting into an Uber at midnight and it's a random person, you've no idea, like anything about them. And actually, in many ways, like, just because we're used to it, that is more scary.
[00:13:14] Like, are they a good driver? I've certainly had, I've had Uber drivers kind of go the wrong way up one way roads on, you know. And as a female, I agree. It's way better to be alone in the car. Yeah, there we go. And, and, and I think this translates directly into, you know, my world of product listing content, right. Which is the, and again, I don't want to just talk about your content, but the AI we built is like infinitely more intelligent than any one graphics designer or copywriter. It just is, right.
[00:13:41] It's got billions of data points, impressions, conversions, and it understands all that. And it's generating content. And yes, like, of course, anything can make a mistake. But the error that maybe an individual kind of freelancer on Fiverr or whatever is going to make is going to be a lot worse. And the AI, especially when you, you know, when you, when we're talking beyond just like sticking something into chat and GPT and generating it, of course, it's got no context.
[00:14:08] Apart from what you put in the prompt, it's going to make some mistakes and it's not going to sound great. But if you are feeding it with all of the keywords that are, that are, we're going to get you blocked on Amazon, for example, you're feeding it with like many examples of the brand voice. It's going to do, in my opinion, a better job than an individual human. And it's going to be more optimized and it's going to be like a hell of a lot faster. And I think it's a bit like getting in the Waymo compared to, you know, picking an Uber driver.
[00:14:38] I love that. I mean, I think it really, one, it's inevitable. We're going to have to figure this out kind of somehow. And two, I appreciate the analogy. You know, I think we sort of leapt into GEO without really defining it. And so maybe it's worthwhile. You just sort of, what is it?
[00:15:04] And how is it different, the same than SEO? You know, how related are they and how should our listeners think about that sort of practice, those set of capabilities that you need? Sure. So, I mean, as you said, GEO stands for Generative Engine Optimization. I like and I dislike the term. I like the term because it's, you know, phonetically, it sounds like a progression from SEO.
[00:15:33] So I think it helps people kind of understand what it is. But I also dislike it because you are, in that same way, you're kind of comparing it to SEO. And in my mind, at least with our customers, I encourage them to think of this as a new marketing channel. So you will have your paid ads, you will have your social media, you will be doing SEO. And to me, this is like a new marketing channel that rather than kind of giving this to your existing SEO and saying,
[00:16:03] hey, like, here's, you know, let's tactically tweak this and change that. To me, this is a massive opportunity, especially now, because not many people are thinking about it. And when I talk to a, you know, a large brand and I say, what's your strategy on ranking on ChatGPT? It's getting a billion messages a day. You know, it's the eighth most visited website of the world. What are you guys doing? They're not, you know, they're not thinking about it. And obviously, it's an entirely new marketing channel.
[00:16:30] And I would encourage it to be, you know, the head of digital or the CMO or, you know, that kind of level in an organization to be thinking about it, because it's a big opportunity. And the kind of another analogy that I give is we're kind of in this same era as the early 2000s, when Google went from being a 10th of Yahoo's, you know, volume to 10 times it. And we're in that same transformation, as we discussed.
[00:17:00] I don't think it's all going to go to ChatGPT. I think we're going to see fragmentation, but we're going to switch from everyone using kind of traditional search to everyone using like LLM-based AI-powered search in the coming months and year. And, you know, the analogy I give is kind of a bit like thinking about TripAdvisor. So TripAdvisor had an incredible SEO strategy in the early 2000s.
[00:17:31] They did two things. Firstly, they made many, many landing pages. So if you're kind of, you know, want to find restaurants in London or Toronto or Vancouver or wherever you are, they would have a landing page for that specific need, which is obviously good for SEO. And the second thing they did was they would give backlinks. And obviously, with the page rank algorithm, you needed these backlinks. So they would give little badges to the restaurants and the hotels and say, you know, here's your number of reviews. And it links back to TripAdvisor so the customer can read all the reviews.
[00:18:00] And suddenly they've got millions of backlinks from all these hotels and restaurants. And they become a $14 billion market cap company at their peak and they get $200 million in organic traffic a month.
[00:18:14] So we have this opportunity now as brands to be the early adopters like TripAdvisor, make, you know, make, you know, really think strategically about how we're going to approach it and have enormous returns.
[00:18:31] And, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's many of TripAdvisor's competitors who are now gone out of business, started at the same time, started in San Francisco, travel tourists being one that nobody's ever heard of. And obviously many factors in that, but one of them is that they didn't spot as TripAdvisor did this ability to see that Google was going to be massive.
[00:18:55] And you could hack in inverted commas, the system of Google by, you know, doing these two strategies and, and, you know, make a massive business for themselves. So if GEO is the next version of that and our listeners are thinking, yes, I'd like to win that space simply because that's where so many of their shopping missions of their consumers are going to go. And if you're not prepared to show up there, you lose.
[00:19:24] So with, with that in mind, I mean, over time, it's not tomorrow, but to your point, to the, as we know with SEO, to the early adopters did go a lot of the spoils and early, you know, early advantage tends to be lasting for a while. So it sounds like that might be the case with GEO.
[00:19:43] And if so, like maybe, maybe starting with Rufus as an example, if we were talking to our brands about how they need to think about preparing their data to show up in that channel, what's the, you know, how do you think about it and describe it for your customers? So the beautiful thing about Rufus and actually all of Amazon and anything to do with Amazon is that they release science papers.
[00:20:09] So you can go on Amazon science, you can go and find science papers on basically everything, Cosmo, Rufus, all of them. And the science papers break down in a, in a, in a lot of detail, how these new search algorithms are working. So, you know, my, my co-founders are PhD in AI and a postdoc. So obviously it helps to have an understanding of how to read these, but any, literally any layman can, can go in.
[00:20:38] And with, you know, the, the beauty of Claude or Google, you know, forget what it's called, workbooks or whatever they call it, or chat GPT, you can just put a science paper in and you can get, you can ask questions to the AI bots about it. So, you know, you don't have to be a PhD in AI, but in terms of specifically Rufus in the science paper there, they talk about five facets that you need in your listing.
[00:21:05] They call these subjective properties and these are, and the meta takeaway from this, by the way, is that it's all about context and keywords matter much less. And I can, I can talk about the technical reasons why, but the, the kind of, the context that they, they say in this Rufus science paper you need is the event relevance, the activity relevance. So like what they're doing, the goal of the product, like why would someone buy it and who the target audience is.
[00:21:33] And actually just having that both in the, in the written content source and the visual content, because by the way, all these AI models are multimodal so they can understand images. And SEO now is also visual in, in, in GEO. So showing, you know, the relevant target audience and, and how the products are used in an image or an infographic, just doing this is going to help you to rank on, on Rufus. And what do you think about chat GPT in the same regard?
[00:22:02] So Rufus is an opportunity for brands to make sure that their products are being shown and they need to use the right context to be able to do that. What about from a chat GPT perspective? Because maybe someone's not going to chat GPT to buy something. They're definitely going to Amazon and Rufus is there. So they might have more of a purchase intent. What about from a chat GPT perspective?
[00:22:23] So chat GPT is the reverse of Amazon and ironically named open AI, you know, nothing published about, Amazon publishes, I said, great details, 300 plus science papers on search. You know what's happening. Well, you don't know what's happening, but you can piece together what's happening. And also if you have data, which I assure most of your customers will, you can make a pretty good inference of like, what's happening? This is what the data is showing. This is what like the science papers are showing.
[00:22:51] Chat GPT is a different kettle of fish and we've got a separate strategy or product for that. But talking again for just listeners who maybe aren't building advanced AI systems, number one piece of advice would be start by just asking chat GPT about your brand. So whatever your brand is, let's say e-content, put it in.
[00:23:16] You can see immediately what chat GPT says and also the references where it's getting that information. And that's really helpful because in my case, for example, when I did this, I saw that they are pulling from articles which are like two, three years old and pulling information which is not as up to date as I'd like, you know, my business to be represented. So, you know, by just simply kind of sticking in your brand and kind of working backwards from that is a good starting point to see what's there now.
[00:23:46] Number two, I think is similar to the Rufus and the Cosmo stuff, which is it's all about intent based copy. It's all about and visuals, you know, understanding the pain points, understanding the goal that your specific customer has when they buy your product and, you know, the specific target audience and generating content for that.
[00:24:08] Thirdly, you can do, you know, OpenAI has got a bunch of partnerships with major news organizations which they use to train the data set. So we're talking the American Journalism Project, the Associated Press, the Atlantic, BuzzFeed, a bunch more. So slightly more, you know, slightly longer term than maybe just like some of the other ones.
[00:24:32] But if you can get yourself featured there, you know that eventually, you know, ChatGPT is using that in the trading data and it's going to help you kind of over the long term. So the final kind of quick hack one, which I would recommend people doing would be to make a custom GPT. So whatever your brand is, and again, I'll give myself an example because I can't think of any, but like we made a custom GPT about how to help sellers can put in their ASIN and see how they rank for Cosmo.
[00:25:01] Right. Simple custom GPT is now got, you know, over a thousand reviews on the GPT store and it helps, you know, you're literally giving your, you know, in the GPT, you can, it puts the author and it links to our website. So you're giving ChatGPT like context about what your company does.
[00:25:21] So I don't know if you're selling a dog food, maybe you make a GPT about like how healthy your dog is and different types of food, different types of dogs may need or whatever it is. Right. But you can show how you can tell ChatGPT, you know, what your, that your brand exists and what you do and how you help customers by literally like putting it in their system. And of course, that's going to, you know, again, help kind of ChatGPT understand a bit more about you.
[00:25:52] And doesn't ChatGPT make Bing matter again? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So they, they are, as you, as you say, I missed that one. They are built on Bing, you know, with their Microsoft partnership. So it's very, actually very easy. You can just kind of copy your Google, like place of business over to Bing. It takes like three seconds and then you're also showing up in Bing and that's also going to help you in ChatGPT as well.
[00:26:21] And Max, do you have any examples of working with brands on either Rufus or ChatGPT that you can share about how they really made a change and really kind of influenced how they were showing up on these LLMs? Absolutely. So, I mean, how much I can probably talk about it. Our largest customer is Canadian Tire and we will have a case study with them shortly. And we've been helping them specifically on AI overviews and in Google ranking.
[00:26:51] But on the Rufus side, we have tons of case studies with kind of, let's say, smaller Amazon sellers. These are just available on our website, but case studies kind of showing how we've helped sellers to go from, you know, outside, you know, outside the top 50 to in the top 25 in the best seller rank. And, you know, we've got a number of these on the website.
[00:27:13] And basically, it's like on the Rufus side is implementing what I said before, generating visual and written content that addresses the, as they call it, subjective product needs of the customer. So who are the customers, you know, generating a lifestyle image of the target audience. So for one customer who is selling cigar cases, you know, you have a lifestyle image of like someone smoking cigar cases, smoking cigars.
[00:27:41] And then, you know, like infographics talking about, and you're testing me here, but if I'm guessing kind of the, you know, like the moisture levels and whatever else you need in the infographics for cigar cases. So you generate kind of like the visual and written content that really explains to the AI as well as a customer, like who the product is for and what it does.
[00:28:07] And you see, you know, you can see this improvement in bestseller rank. And that improvement comes from putting that content where? On the PDP? On the product list. Or other, that's, okay. I just want to show if there are other places you wanted to do that. So you're making A-plus content. You're making infographics. You're updating the copy. The keyword, like the keyword stuffing here, I think basically every, you know, serious seller has kind of realized this now is kind of over.
[00:28:36] You know, Amazon have like come out and said they're going to penalize you for repeating words in your title. So like having, I was literally talking to a seller, you know, a few minutes ago. And she was selling, a vendor selling kind of cooking things with like, you know, wires, again, I'm not a chef, but wires to kind of tie together meat, right? So it can be done for lamb. It can be done for turkey.
[00:29:06] It can be done for chicken. Like it's like a cooking wire package thing. And she was saying, you know, part of the reason she reached out to me is she's seeing this drop. And it's quite obvious to see why, because you've got, you know, turkey wire, steak wire, all these same thing over and over again, like across the listing. The AI is smarter than that.
[00:29:24] And it's not, it's not rewarding that it's rather you talk about preparing, you know, preparing a delicious meal and having a photograph of people enjoying some steak or whatever, you know, and like, it's kind of more intelligent now than just trying to like find some long tail keywords. And you think there's a gap and like sticking all of those in a listing. So I'm thinking again of putting myself in the place of our listener.
[00:29:54] This sounds really hard and expensive. So tell me, and I'm being facetious, but our listeners are so pretty whelmed or overwhelmed with what's on their plate right now. Wow. What are the, how does this scale for somebody when you think of our listeners who have, some of them have thousands of products and sell on all sorts of different sites?
[00:30:24] Like what is the hope as this scales over the next few years to make this an achievable thing? Because it's pretty critical to get right. So I think that, and talking from personal, like purely personal experience, number one thing is this is a topic that the senior leadership or at least like, you know, senior digital, senior like marketing or senior digital leadership in a company need to be thinking about. It's a big change and a big opportunity.
[00:30:55] And I think without that kind of buy in, I agree, like you're not going to get very far trying to like, fill around the edges with like the existing graphics designers or the existing SEO teams. Because frankly, they don't have the budget to, or kind of even the motivation, right?
[00:31:14] Like if, if, if, if you're talking to people who aren't motivated by increasing revenue or, you know, somehow tied in, like the growth is part of their, you know, their personal compensation. It's going to be very hard to, to, to shift behavior in the way that it needs to shift. So I think like buy in, I would say is the number one thing.
[00:31:38] And I don't know exactly like the profile of your listener, whether those are the decision makers or in, in these various companies, or if these people need buy in. But in my experience, it's a, when you explain it to, you know, a senior leader in the company, they get it because they've used chat GPT, right? Like who has, who hasn't used chat GPT who's in there, like a digital e-commerce world, nobody. So they, they, they understand it and it's not a huge leap to be like, okay, like there's an opportunity here.
[00:32:06] We need to, we need to start thinking about stuff. And yeah, obviously there's a bunch of AI tools. I'm very biased about them, but there's a bunch of AI tools that you can use to, to, to help you to achieve this.
[00:32:19] And I think in many ways, that's better than trying to get a human because, you know, like if you find an AI tool, which is understand these algorithms, they're going to be able to do a much better job as I talked about with the Waymo than kind of trying to get, you know, get people to do it.
[00:32:37] So when you talk to the senior leadership to get their attention and to make them understand the difference between current practice and where growth comes and future practice and where growth comes, you know, right now I'm summing up on a keywords are dead, but I don't know whether, what's the, what's the right way to, to really bring to life, to senior leadership, what a paradigm shift and slash early adopter opportunity this is.
[00:33:05] I, it cut to me and in my experience, it comes back to saying, this is a new channel. This is a brand new channel with absolutely massive opportunity, depending on who your customers are. It could be a big or small opportunity. So you can get kind of data. And I use this in, you know, when I talk to some people like of the age ranges who use ChatGPT, obviously if you're taught, if you're selling products to, you know, 20 to 50 year olds, it's a massive opportunity.
[00:33:34] If you're targeting a slightly older generation, it's not a big, you know, it's probably not relevant as much to you, but you can, you can kind of break it down. And even actually by race. So surprisingly, like Hispanic use of ChatGPT is twice that than white Americans. So there's, there's, there's kind of like, there's, there's even more opportunity.
[00:34:01] And I guess like individuals can kind of just quickly use perplexity would be my main recommendation to just say, you know, this is my customer. What's, what's their adoption rate? And you, you know, you can, there's lots of studies on this. So the numbers are pretty clear. And like the headline number is, you know, a billion messages a day. Like that's, that's pretty massive, right?
[00:34:23] So you can, I think it's quite, people might not necessarily be thinking about it, but as soon as you mention it, yeah, they will start to think about it. And my view is in the future, this will be a new organization, like, you know, a new department in major brands and retailers. And they'll have focusing on GEO and it won't be, it won't necessarily sit with SEO.
[00:34:47] I mean, it might, you know, it might have similar people working on it. If SEO is still important, you know, probably will still be important for a section of the population. But to me, this is like, it's a bit, it's a big new opportunity and it requires like a, you know, unique focus and maybe like new departments in future.
[00:35:09] Well, as everyone can tell, this is a fast moving and fascinating moment. And so one of the ways you can keep on top of it, Max does a terrific blog at his site and it's e-comtent. So E-C-O-M like e-comtent.ai. And so go to their site, lots of great articles.
[00:35:36] He spoke about one, which is, you know, how search is changing because of these generative engines. There's a great blog post on insights from the Amazon science piece. So if you go to that blog, you'll see a lot, particularly, you know, on the top of the list that you can go to and start to dig in to get these concepts because they're moving fast.
[00:36:02] And it's great to have somebody like you on, Max, to share the latest and give a sense of what's ahead. So thank you so much. Thank you, Peter. It's been a pleasure. Thanks to Max for sharing his GEO wisdom with us. Speaking of wisdom, you can find lots more from experts and peers at the 2025 Digital Shelf Summit in New Orleans in April. More info at digitalshelfsummit.com. Thanks for being part of our community.