[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age. Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. The mega sales of the big retailers represent both risk and opportunity, and the size of both are constantly changing. Today's guest,
[00:00:28] Sunava Dutta, Chief Product Officer at Pacvue, brings a ton of insights around overall strategic organizational and process best practices, and a dive into the data and what it pretends for this season of the Prime Days and the Walmart deals. It involves all of the rooms of your house, and a lot of math. Welcome to the podcast, Sunava. We are so excited to have you on. Thank you so much for coming. You're welcome, Peter. I appreciate it. Lauren, nice to meet you as well again.
[00:00:57] Just to give our audience a special one of those clutch feelings in the chest, we're only a few months out until Prime Day, 113 days to be exact, and brands really need to start thinking about how their content and retail media campaigns are going to work together, hopefully. It's part of what we need to talk about, to tell a compelling story to their customer. There's so much in flux right now in the world and with retail media. So I wanted to see, Sunava, in this context,
[00:01:26] how you've seen the industry shift around these tentpole events. Yeah, that's a really good question. I feel like it's become a very dynamic marketplace. And if you step back, there are three broad themes that I want to talk about quickly from the marketing industry perspective. The first one is increased retailer competition. This is the where.
[00:01:51] It's really becoming easier, and I'm not using the word easy, but easier for retailers to develop our minds. More companies are investing in this space. And AI is accelerating the trend. It's becoming much, much faster to write code. What used to take weeks can now take hours. And then if you don't want to go in-house, you can also partner with others like Promote IQ, for example, that's helping Home Depot,
[00:02:18] et cetera. Kevill, we're partnered with them. So what does this mean, right? It means for the more surface area, there's more surface area for brands to play in within the retailers like Amazon, Target, Kroger in the US, and a choice they have to face on what is the best dollar allocation. So these events are pretty close to each other, right? Prime Day, Target, Walmart deals.
[00:02:44] And with mega sales, you have to think about what is the best way to rebalance your strategy? And how do you set the objective? What is the best place to rebalance the strategy? Whether you want to drive CPC, whether you want to drive ROAS. So again, good example of this whole retailer RMAN saturation is Prime Day. You could be like, look, we're going to focus on driving Prime
[00:03:07] Day sales. That's a key focus as a brand. And then if you want to do a lower CPC, but a higher ROAS play, let's do Walmart deals day, right? So you might have a strategy that kind of spans multi-retail. That's trend number one, mostly a function of increased demand access and development. The second one is the what? Being able to rapidly execute flywheel on the demand side. So think about like planning, activation, measurement, that's the ads world.
[00:03:37] And then connect it to the supply side. Sell in, sell through, inventory levels, right? A lot of your podcasters probably live in that world as manufacturers, supply chain, et cetera. I think the days of marketing dollars and trade dollars being almost in parallel universes are coming to an end with omnichannel retail landscape. And as you can see, RMN sit in the intersection of trade and marketing, requiring both budgets to align if you want to maximize your efficiency and spend.
[00:04:06] The third one is AI. I think we've got, let's come back to that at the end. That's a pretty big beast by itself. But I think those are the three main trends that are really demonstrating like we're moving into a very dynamic marketplace right now. And when you think about the brands getting ready for those changes and those dynamics, like how do you suggest that they figure out what that strategy
[00:04:33] looks like, right? Like do I focus more on Prime Day? Do I focus on deal day? Do I focus on just sales for this specific brand or product? Like what is your suggestion as they think about this overall strategy, knowing those dynamics are changing? Yeah. I think to understand that, I'd almost like take a step back and look at the macroeconomic situation. From 2021, we've seen a pretty interesting trend that's just been continuing. If you consider 2021 to be a
[00:05:02] speculation peak in the industry. I think value consciousness is going to be a keen thing. And higher intent shoppers will hold out for the mega sales events, keeping CPC levels high and conversion rates and ROAS high. So average auto value shrinking, but people holding back on things that
[00:05:27] they know they want to buy for these big sale events. So what does that really mean from a technical marketer, performance marketer perspective? If you have a high intent shopper, do you really measure ROAS or do you measure iROAS? Right? Why are you going to attribute or what would normally have been an organic sale
[00:05:53] to your ad dollar? So I think one of the ways for brands to navigate this scenario of high intent shopper increased focused on value is by using iROAS in their kind of planning, execution, and starting honestly with single retailer. Just use iROAS within the Amazon ecosystem
[00:06:21] or the Walmart ecosystem, whichever one retailers you're playing with. Start with the ones where you have the data sets, you build some confidence around the numbers. And then from there, there's a lot of ways to explore. We can talk about that more. You know what? While we're on iROAS, let's talk about it. How would you define iROAS? And I completely agree with you, by the way. It's a better incremental ROAS. It's way better than
[00:06:47] regular ROAS. But explain why you're looking at that and why you think that is the best approach for brands? Because there is some, I think there's some confusion around what iROAS actually means in the industry. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the challenge is, you know, while we look at the average order values and the, you know, economic uncertainty right now, we tend to focus a lot on the end consumer,
[00:07:14] which is the right place to start. But we often forget, you know, the brands because it's like, you know, the brands are somewhere in the middle, right? There's the end consumer, there's the retailer, the brands in the middle, advertisers. If you're a brand, you're also feeling the pinch and you're trying to optimize your return on marketing investment. And if you're going to do that, ROAS is kind of a little bit of a legacy metric. Is there a place for ROAS?
[00:07:40] Absolutely. But the problem is ROAS looks at your total output, organic and marketing activity, and divides it by the number of marketing dollars you put in. Now that one obviously suffers from the big problem of organic spend being attributed to your marketing dollars. And in some cases, I think it makes sense, right? Like you may say like, look, you know, did they really not see my
[00:08:06] upper funnel ad? I think I should get some credit for that. But I don't think that that metric in isolation is sufficient. I think you also have to start teasing down, removing the organic component from it. And just looking at the incremental marketing spend. And there's a lot of ways to do that. That's getting a little technical. You can use holdback or control groups to do it. You can use multi-touch attribution. We have different mechanisms to do that. But I think
[00:08:35] the general gist is that ROAS is becoming more and more important. And it helps you remove the organic component out. Now here is where I think the future is going. And this is where, you know, we're championing, you know, I'm championing that from a product perspective at Packview, which is ROAS, if you're a brand, start by using ROAS within Amazon, Walmart, where you're comfortable. But the real power is cross-channel, cross-retail ROAS.
[00:09:03] And being able to sit back, plug the output of the ROAS into, right, your future budget planning tools. So now you are optimizing future planning around cross-retailer, not even multi-retailer, cross-retailer strategy, and then optimizing how you want to allocate your spend based on different metrics, right? CPC, click-through rate, et cetera, conversion rates, et cetera.
[00:09:29] I absolutely love that. And I think to sum up the just plain ROAS conversation, I always like to say, if you want me to make ROAS look good, I can, right? Like if you want to be able to make that metric tell the story you want it to tell, you can. But if you're looking at iROAS, it's actually a driver for the business if you're calculating it correctly. And I love your point about connecting it
[00:09:54] to budget planning. And that's where your finance team really needs to come into play for any brand that's listening here. Like if you're not including finance in this conversation, for them to understand what iROAS means and how you can plan that out more holistically with the business, like that is a missing key here. And I don't know, Sunav, if you've been in any conversations with finance and you have
[00:10:19] any anecdotes, but that is a critical piece. Yes. And actually it's kind of funny. You know what we, you know, I came from Microsoft, spent 18 years there. And one of the things that Microsoft in advertising is like, you know, we have this concept of like the different rooms in the house, right? Within a brand, you've got supply chain, category managers, more on the supply side, right? And then you've got obviously marketing. We talked about those things converging.
[00:10:45] As you kind of build this cross-channel iROAS strategy, you have to work whether you're, you know, especially on the demand side, very closely with your manufacturer, or at least with the supply and sales side and the finance side. If you don't do that, you're going to run into spend issues. You're going to run into poor allocation of budget, inventory stockouts, right? You need to make sure you have sufficient weeks on cover. So like being able to bring it all together is very
[00:11:12] critical. And that's again, where software SaaS providers can play a role because within a brand, they may not have, they, I mean, they have Slack, I'm sure, or Teams or, you know, whatever collaboration tool of choice they have, but that is not a technical tool to look at a dashboard and numbers across the board, how the goods flow, how the customers flow, where do they intersect? What does that digital shelf look like? And I think bringing that all together is a critical
[00:11:37] role for SaaS providers so that you, you know, you can make good decisions when you, when you, especially when you throw a few fuel in the fire and you go iROAS cross-channel. So Sunav, I want to zoom in on Amazon and, and draw on your educated crystal ball-ness to tell us what are your predictions for Prime Day this year? And what are some of the things that
[00:12:00] do you suggest brands focus on as they're preparing? Yeah. I'll start by this. Why don't we just do a quick retrospective of 2024? And then, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll play the trend because I think the trend is our friend as they say in investing. So let's start there. So last Prime Day, I think it was new records, 14 billion in spend, I think around roughly a 10% increase.
[00:12:25] Um, and CPCs were very high, very high. Um, I think it was a 2, 2.5% second day peak, which is, you know, about 70, 70% more than average. And then, as I mentioned earlier, right, average order volumes are falling a little bit. I expect, um, I expect the average order volume to, um, continue to decline, but maybe at a less steep rate as more and more price conscious and value
[00:12:55] oriented shoppers look for deals. Um, I think CPCs are going to be competitive. There's no way around that. Um, and I think high intent shoppers are going to continue to flock to these events. So I think generally I'm pretty positive about that impact of tariffs and all unknown. I think it's going to require several very high functioning crystal balls to be able to predict the output of that. Um, now let's talk about categories, right? I think like on Prime Day, you can't have a
[00:13:23] conversation on Prime Day without necessarily talking about what categories do well. So let's again, build on the themes that we're talking about high intent shoppers. Um, if you do that, there are certain categories that we know, um, thrive. Um, let's talk about it. Baby products, pretty high intent, right? Baby products, pretty expensive pet supplies. You generally know what you want for your pet. Once you've established it, if you want to explore, show there are lots of ways
[00:13:49] to explore, but I mean, that's another category that's super important. Personal care, health and household. I think those categories are going to continue to do really well in Prime Day this year. The one that I don't have my crystal balls a little blurry on, uh, is electronics. I think that one has also been a big driver and has been done, has done really well from a ROAS perspective on Prime Day.
[00:14:14] Historically, um, I think Prime Day will bring about some really good deals there. On the other hand, uh, it is a discretionary purchase for most people. So I am not sure how we do in that category this year versus historical, historical, uh, historical where we've done very well, but overall, I think the other categories will continue to do well in this one. Let's keep an eye and watch, uh, watch and see.
[00:14:38] Again, that keeps things exciting, doesn't it? Definitely does. And I, I, one of the things about Prime Day that I'm, I'm hoping brands are already working on, uh, is to Peter's opening, connecting their content to their ads that they're, they're driving and trying to figure out like what the right mix is and how to think through where they should place their ads and how they should be thinking
[00:15:02] about that. If you are talking to, let's say, uh, a grocery brand and they're trying to figure out like, how should I be setting up my ad strategy and, and how am I combining that with my organic, uh, reach and market share that I already have? Like what, what were like two tips that you would say, or you would think through if, and you would say to that brand as they're 113 days out, uh, to start thinking about from an ad perspective? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that question.
[00:15:32] I've actually, you know what, I would almost, I would almost like combine this with, um, with AI, because I think that like you really can answer that question without bringing in AI here, but let's start with the non-AI components first, at least more traditional components and then layer in AI. Let's, let's do it in two phases. So one is, I think it's important to start planning ahead. I think this one's obvious, but you'll be surprised. A lot of brands don't, um, you know,
[00:16:01] they've had a reorg, there's been some changes. They don't necessarily have the leeway that the runway that we think that, um, they do, right? So invest in pre-tempo brand awareness is absolutely key. So one of the things that we encourage our brands is ramp up spend two to three weeks before prime day. And you will see stronger organic rate rankings. And we've seen that lower CPCs on the actual day.
[00:16:27] So your total spend might be pretty high just because you're ramping it up, right? But on prime day, you'll be more predictable. You're going to maximize efficiency. So stepping back again, leading up to prime day or 10 pole events, right? Circles, deals day, et cetera. Ramp up your spend and start going upper funnel. I know upper funnel sometimes is not as satisfying just because it feels a little more wishy-washy, but I think it's important to go early there.
[00:16:55] And also consider influencer in your strategy. That's another area where our company is making a big push as the product leader. I'm going to be driving a lot around there, TikTok, et cetera. I think going influencer is very important nowadays. So that's my number one tip. The other one I would say is time to think about rapidly testing creative, although this is not a surprise to anyone right now. That's a well-trodden area.
[00:17:22] I think AI can make the process much faster. So again, doubling down on that, the third one we talked about, which is focusing on incremental spend. It's not easy to just shift to IRO. It's just not. You need to work with your teams, the hands-on keyboard people, the brands, the finance team, the supply chain team. And you really need to bring this. Sometimes brands, they often will have a bunch of people focusing on Google, a bunch of people focusing on Amazon. And those people
[00:17:50] don't necessarily share tips. If you're going to do cross-channel, you've got to start building that muscle. Those are some of the tips. And then there's a ton of stuff around AI that we can talk about as well. But this is the almost basics. If you get the basics, the rest of the stuff like AI and all can help you get there faster. If you don't get the basics right and throw AI on it, you're going to get garbage in, garbage out.
[00:18:13] So before we head to AI, because of course we have to, I'd love just to get your insights on, because we've been talking about this, well, forever on the pod, but even more recently, about the org changes that are required to play in this environment. You just rattled off a list of three or four teams that need to all be in on this strategy. And I'm wondering what you're seeing
[00:18:40] at your clients from sort of best in class that are starting to figure out how to do that cross-team coordination in an environment like yours that's so rapid. I'm just wondering if you have some thoughts about that. Oh, I absolutely do. So one of the things that we have seen we can help with, like, look, when we're dealing with our big brands, right? Like, Backview's goal is not to necessarily tell
[00:19:07] them how to run their org. That's not our goal. But we do work with them, and we do work across the different orgs, like when we work in commerce, ads, bring it all together, digital shelf. And what we have seen is almost there's two kind of elements to success within the brands for, you know, moving to this new world that we've been talking about today. One is you may be functionally, or you may, sorry, you may be structurally organized in a matrixed
[00:19:33] way within the organization. And that's okay. If you're a matrix dog and a big brand with marketing, supply chain sitting in different divisions, which is normal, I expect that to continue. And then even within your marketing team, having like DSP, upper funnel folks sitting in a different group, retail media in a different group, and then within retail media, you have your Amazon team and all. That's all fine. But you have to, when it comes to things like cross channel, etc., you have
[00:20:03] to create a, the incentive structure for them to work together. And that includes joint accountability, joint definitions of success. So example, a category manager looking at the electronics category, they have to, they have to set their goals in partnership with the manufacturers and all which they often do, but also with the demand side partners. So we use the concept of pods. You can use
[00:20:30] virtual teams if you want to use a more NBA term, right? V teams. You've got to set those teams up and early, and you've got to invest in those teams spending time together, regardless of how, whether the organization is matrixed or not. So that includes them meeting at an offsite, working together, discussing strategies, discussing prime day, getting ready for that, going through a joint checklist, not a separate checklist, a joint checklist. Those are things that we have seen work really well. Now, on our side,
[00:20:58] as a SaaS provider and a technology platform, we bring them also together using our platform. I think I mentioned like Slack and Zoom only can go so far, right? Those are great collaboration tools, but they're not, they're not optimized for our space. For our space, what we do is we, we're building an executive hub, for example, and we put that out in our product right now, where we call it a God's view on your sales numbers, your manufacturing numbers, inventory numbers, and your demand side numbers in
[00:21:26] one place. You use things like that. You use our budget planner and our budget manager. Now you're suddenly starting to see different personas from the different rooms in the house in a brand, accessing that same tool to look at the same numbers, work off the same source of truth, and the same set of facts. So now that's how we facilitate that process, but it comes from the org and then technology that we provide provides an accelerant to that journey.
[00:21:55] That makes a ton of sense. Lauren, were you going to say something? I was just going to say that I 100% agree. I mean, Peter knows this. I'm working on some org structure research with the DSI and your pod concept. I've also heard people call it like teams teams. You need to be able to activate in small teams who has visibility across the entire commercial process versus just your silo of a sales or a marketing or a supply chain. You just can't be
[00:22:23] successful because that is no longer how the consumer shops and that is no longer the consumer journey. So you're operating in an old construct. So I completely agree with you, but I also know that it is challenging to change those types of behaviors. So the pod or the matrix structure is a great way to begin, have those cross-functional meetings, meet bi-weekly, have agile stand-ups, have the
[00:22:48] cross-functional global meetings, and then roll that out to the broader organization. It's something that everybody needs to start thinking about because the shopper does not go, hey, I'm going to buy on this channel today and then on this channel tomorrow. They just go on their shopping journey. Exactly. And this inspiration for me actually came from Microsoft at Bill Gates' time. When he was a CEO, one of his missions back in the day was saying like, look, Microsoft is growing into a giant
[00:23:16] company, but it's extremely matrixed. And a lot of the roles are redundant and people are not talking. How do we bring it all together? And Microsoft went down a shift and then the rest is history. Now it's, I think, the second or third most valuable company in the world. I think that kind of unlock, mirroring that kind of a pod-based unlock can allow you to, again, keep your org structure without breaking it apart, but have people collaborating a lot more. And now with all the tools that we have, I think that it's much easier than it was 20 years ago. Well, that's a nice thing. I mean,
[00:23:46] what Lauren is talking about, this shift in organizational work and in process, what's wonderful is when technology can then come along and adapt itself to be able to support that structure and those cross-functional conversations. That's the right order, really. Because in order for the organization to put use of the things that you are describing, they need to be set up and
[00:24:11] incentivized to want to do that conversation, which I think is really cool. So you may not tell organizations how to put themselves together, but the DSI will apparently. So we're going to work on that part and then we'll meet in the middle. So I wanted to dig in on AI for a second before we close out. And one important question is, do you both agree with me that Rufus is a dog?
[00:24:40] That's a great question. I feel like I have just thought of him as a dog. Yeah. But I don't think Amazon's using that enough because dogs are, everyone loves a dog. Well, Sparky is a smiley face on Walmart, their new AI assistant. Of course, because didn't they used to have the, yeah, that's back to the rollback thing. Anyways, sorry, Sunav, I didn't mean to. No, no, no. To me, it's a disembodied spirit.
[00:25:03] Very eerie. I love it. And more importantly, when you think about our listeners and your customers preparing for, A, what do you think in this season? How much of a role will the Rufuses of the world play? How much do people need to be thinking about right now? And what is your advice
[00:25:26] in that case or in, hey, we should, you know, here's how to prepare for that future, which is fast approaching? Yeah, no, this is probably the most exciting question out there right now, right now, because everyone's AI is hard. Everyone's trying to make sense of it. Before we even jump into Rufus, I want to kind of, again, do my thing. I want to do is take a step back, kind of frame the area, and then we'll fit Rufus in here. I think the general trend is from,
[00:25:55] at least within a very specific niche, search-based advertising. I think that search-based advertising is now going to be complemented a lot more with intent and context-based advertising. And if we understand that, and I'm not going to use an aggressive word like keywords are out and intent markers are in, that's too aggressive. I don't think that the world is ever, ever that simple.
[00:26:25] I think everything makes sense now. So a good example is my wife and I, like, you know, we care about eco-friendly products, health products, et cetera, healthy products. And when we go search, right, like, we almost want this universal filter on top of everything. No Teflon, microplastics or plastics, like if they, you know, if there's lots of spray chemical coatings and all, we'd rather avoid
[00:26:50] that, right? We don't like preservatives and additives in our foods. Not everyone's like that. But think about the old world, right? In keyword-based searches, I have to search for the product I want, like a kid's jacket for skiing, and then I have to do multiple steps to get rid of Teflon from it, right? Now you think about an LLM, whether it's Rufus, Rufus powered, et cetera.
[00:27:17] If they have enough context about you or they can gain the context about you by asking you some prompts and having a multi-term conversation, they can then filter out all these negative keywords almost, right, in a bunch of products as you browse the web using them as a shopping agent. And I'm not talking of Rufus in particular, I'm just talking about AI powered shopping agents.
[00:27:41] That is transformative in how you can shop. So now what you're seeing is keyword search-based ads important, but again, intent markers more and more important. So what does that mean? I think AI search and discovery is the next generation of retail readiness that brands really have to invest in. And companies like us, we are doubling down on that. That journey is still
[00:28:07] in the early stages just because there's so much movement there, but I think that's where we're heading. I think it's super exciting. And the fascinating thing will be how long is the path to get there? Because AI as a concept, as a function, as a capability is developing very quickly. Yes.
[00:28:37] But what will it take and where will the leaps be made? You know, some people talk about the AI search engines or search engines becoming the sort of leader in that and giving retailers the capability to do this. And that might make it leapfrog more than one might usually express because I don't know whether this is fair to say or not, but at least the wider swath of retailers
[00:29:02] technologically can sometimes be laggards, not leaders. And I don't know. I'm just wondering if you have thoughts about that. It's a good question. I'm going to date myself a little bit, but being one of the people who started my career before the iPhone was created, right? Which nowadays is ancient history. Yes. Yes, it is. You know, I think the answer to that is sooner than most people think. And also at the same time,
[00:29:28] longer than most people can imagine. Do you remember the days of the dot com, the fiber optics and the investment in data center, you know, not data center, sorry, fiber optic cables and all, right? Oh, sure. Yeah. I think that there was a lot of push and it happened in many ways. The output was sooner, right? You had a lot of websites come on in dot com, pets, pets.com, et cetera, before people even thought it was possible. But then the real, real revolution wave came much later on, right? So I think what we're seeing is the first wave of AI and it's coming very fast. I mean,
[00:29:58] we're making investments. AI agents is going to be a big, big focus for our company, back view. I know, I know platform companies, it's all over the place, right? People are creating their own agents in five minutes. Nowadays, you can go on open AI and do that. I think that's going to be the first wave. Then I think what's likely to happen again, it's crystal ball here a little bit is that we're going to run into some platform and some performance trade-offs. So a good example of
[00:30:25] that is AI is notoriously unpredictable. And that's just the nature of AI. The output, if you think of X as an input, the output is FX and the variability of the LLM's output is quite broad. They're prone to hallucination, but it's also the way transformers work. So I expect, like, I'll give you an example, DCO, right? Dynamic Creative Optimization using AI, Stable Diffusion Models. You can use AI to create all sorts of images, right? Great for brands if you want to,
[00:30:52] like, let's say you're a brand and you want to create Christmas creative, right? 800 by 800 or whatever for a DSP. The problem though is that now what if you do that and you find there are some weird artifacts in the images? They're not that easy to remove. And at scale, at the way these brands operate and the kind of level of perfection they require, these things might pose a problem that we're not fully aware of yet, but we will learn down the line. So again, I think that we're well
[00:31:19] into the first wave. It's super exciting. We're going to run into some issues as an industry. It's going to create a pause, a setback, and then we're going to again plow through in another wave. So that's just how technology works. You are a wondrous combination of sort of spectacular thought leader and total nerd. And I love it. Thank you for bringing us both because this moment needs that. It needs somebody who's able to think
[00:31:44] about these things in both ways. I appreciate it. I used to run robotics before my this job. So it's kind of exciting. And 18 years at Microsoft, that must have been a ride. It was amazing. Yeah. A whole other podcast. Yeah. And a whole other beverage, I can imagine. So Sunava, before I let you go, I wanted to thank PacView because, well, first of all, you folks are awesome. But secondly,
[00:32:11] we saw on social media, and Lauren will kill me for bringing this up, but as they closed out Women's History Month, your company put out a list of women that they recognize, trailblazing women who are redefining what's possible in retail media and commerce. And they named Lauren Leivack Gilbert to that list. And I just wanted you to pass along to your company sort of my thanks and for doing that
[00:32:39] and also for their wisdom and noticing just how awesome Lauren is. So we appreciate it. Thanks. You're welcome. And Lauren, well-deserved. I think we opened the podcast just before we started recording, right? Like just talking about like the digital shelf, you know, the work you guys are doing in this space. It's a really, really interesting space. I call you guys trailblazers. I, you know, I think it's well-deserved. I think this space is only going to pick up.
[00:33:06] Yeah. It ain't done. Agreed. And I'm, it's so incredible to see the community that we've been able to build because of that, right? Like we're, we're all in this together. We're all figuring it out. So it's, it's really been incredible to watch. And I see that in your podcast, right? Because like you're talking digital shelf and you have manufacturers and all listening in, but a lot of the podcasts on focused on the supply side, a lot of them on the demand side, on the ad side.
[00:33:33] And it's really brings together the fact that we were talking about bringing all the rooms in the house together and you guys, the pioneers there. So well-deserved again. Well, thank you so much. And you are one really, really strong example of, of that, of being able to reach out to people like you and, and give us some view to what we ought to be thinking about and how we ought to be organizing is super important. So, Sunava, thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been great to talk to you. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
[00:34:04] Thanks again to Sunava for joining us. You should take his advice and be part of the Digital Shelf Institute. Go to digitalshelfinstitute.org to become a member. Thanks for being part of our community.