Surfing the Retail Media Wave, with Paul Brooks, Partner at Tenet Advisory & Investments, ex-Coles 360

[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, APAC Edition, where we explore the unique challenges and opportunities shaping digital commerce across Asia-Pacific, with insights from the region's top experts. Hello, and welcome to our very first APAC edition of Unpacking the Digital Shelf. I'm Teresa Sperdy from Arctic Fox, and I'm thrilled to be your host for the APAC Show.

[00:00:24] Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to share a little bit about how this came to be. Back in 2024, I had the pleasure of being featured on the podcast with Peter and Lauren. Fast forward to early this year, and amidst the freezing depths of NRF in New York, Lauren and I began chatting about how we could spotlight the incredible insights and innovation happening across Australia and Asia. And now, here we are.

[00:00:53] Each month, we'll be bringing an APAC edition of the show, designed to help global brands looking to enter or expand in Australia and Asia, as well as help those already operating in the region who want to unlock growth and are navigating the changing market. We'll be joined by leaders who know these markets best, and I'm really looking forward to some of the many conversations over the coming months.

[00:01:27] Today on the pod, we will be surfing the wave of retail media in Australia, which is a rapidly growing market locally. In 2024, it was valued at $2.6 billion Australian dollars by Sonder, and it's anticipated to grow a further 10 to 15% in 2025.

[00:01:45] The anticipated growth will be fueled by the entry of a number of new network players in new retail verticals, as well as growth in spend from some advertisers and brands already leveraging retail media as part of their digital shelf strategy. But it isn't all happy days. Like any emerging market, retailers and brands alike are experiencing growing pains.

[00:02:08] I'm pleased to have with me here today on the mics, Paul Brooks, now partner at Tenet Advisory and Investment and ex-General Manager of Coles 360, one of Australia's leading retail media networks. Welcome, Paul. Welcome, Paul. It's so great to have you here on the show today. Thank you, Teresa. Thanks for having me as well. I'm really looking forward to that discussion. Great setup, by the way. Me too. Thank you. So why don't we get right into it.

[00:02:36] In your time at Coles 360, you had the unique opportunity to be on the ground building the retail media proposition for one of Australia's largest supermarket brands and leading retailers, which gives you what I would say is a really rare lens into both the challenges and the opportunities in this space. So to start with, would you mind giving us a little bit of information about how you found yourself leading and building one of Australia's largest retail media networks,

[00:03:06] where the market was when you joined, and provide us with a sense of what you were tasked with during your time as GM of retail media at Coles 360. Yeah, sure. Thanks, Teresa. I think prior to joining Coles and Coles 360, and with that retail media, I'd spent a vast majority of my career in agencies, ad agencies and media agencies,

[00:03:31] across a couple of different holding groups in various roles, everything from sort of client service through to group investment. But we've exposed you around lots of different parts of the ecosystem around content, ag tech, mar tech, et cetera. But I've worked with retailers for a long time. Then I did a stint at nine on the publisher side, before I had the opportunity to join Coles and Coles 360.

[00:03:54] And when I got that call, that was part of the appeal to be honest, in terms of where you, how you set this section up was the fact that it's very nascent in this market. And to be part of a growth sector and a new sector and helping to define and lead that was part of the appeal. And doing that in one of the big retailers, it's obviously got obvious benefits as well.

[00:04:19] So that's part of the reason, a bit of background, a bit of history and how I joined Coles and Coles 360 and why. But as you said, it was really nascent. And the concept of retail media was still very embryonic in Australia. So the best part of three and a half, four years ago. There have been some early moves. Walrus have made some strong early moves with establishment of cultology. We obviously had Ken Warehouse. We're probably the two main players.

[00:04:45] But there was no clearly defined market structure, shared language. Agencies, brands, retailers all had different expectations and a different perspective around what they, what that looked like. So I think that was part of the opportunity and part of the appeal. And my role was to build, there was a business case stage, but my role was to build up Coles 360 proposition or what was at the time,

[00:05:11] Coles supplier media from the ground up from strategy, structure, team, tech stack, partner ecosystem and go to market. And as I say, that was part of the huge appeal. And one of the challenges around that was how do we balance that long term ambition with that short term commercial imperative? And that was, you know, how do we look to commercialize that quickly for scale and stale credibility and therefore opportunity?

[00:05:37] It's really interesting in a rapidly evolving market, you are essentially building as the environment around you continues to change, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Look, there's not a, I mean, we can, and we'll probably come on to talk about this around learning from overseas markets, but there wasn't a lot to learn from locally. Some of that is around the competitive conflict for obvious reasons. So you're very much sort of learning to develop in a business almost, almost from scratch, albeit with learnings from overseas.

[00:06:06] There's no pre assembled teams or structures or operation models, really. So it's very much around understanding, you know, the business that you were in, the business that you wanted to create and get an alignment around what that future state, that future state looked like and therefore setting out a vision and a strategy. And also being really open to the fact that it will evolve and it will change quite quickly because in any high growth sector, that's exactly what happens. Exactly.

[00:06:37] You were at Coles 360 for about three years and you would have seen a lot of change over that time. From where you sit, how has the Australian retail media market evolved over that period? Yeah, it's maturing rapidly. We've got some interesting dynamics happening in the marketplace where we've got this huge sort of growth and proliferation, but consolidation happening at the same time, which is pretty unique.

[00:07:03] But I would say that if you go back to that time, there was primarily, it was a dialogue between retailers and retailers in intermarket. I think I've started to see that we've seen and observed that change quite a bit where there's multiple players and there's multiple parts of the ecosystem. And that's the real one lock actually. It's all different parts of that coming together from ad tech to mild tech to retailers to brands to publishers have all got a role to play.

[00:07:30] And technology, obviously, in terms of how this ecosystem develops and evolves. I think there's been a significant uplift in awareness, education and appetite more broadly. Brands are starting to change the way that they look at their budgets internally. It's no longer just above the line and a trade line. So we're starting to see that better visibility and better integration, I think. We've seen agencies have started to build sort of dedicated commerce teams. I think we'll continue to see that evolve as well.

[00:08:00] There's greater sophistication which is taking place. Measurement and accountability has become front and centre and rightly so. And that is almost encouraging and forcing networks to be able to evolve quickly to deliver on that. I suppose the North Star around closed loop reports, a closed loop and incrementality. And obviously we see more retailers entering this space. There's ecosystems growing quickly. It's increasing in noise and inconsistency, which is one of the challenges.

[00:08:29] I think when we started it were probably when Coles 360 launched into market. It's probably that I would say the third established retail media. Now we've probably got somewhere between eight and ten. And we'll probably see the same number again sort of spin up in some form over the next sort of year to 18 months. So there are a number of new entrants coming into the market and it's interesting. You've touched on a number of different actors that are playing a role in market.

[00:08:58] And there is this real need for those to help lift and build capability, particularly for retailers. But to build maturity, it does also feel like many of those in the ecosystem agencies and the networks themselves need to play a bigger role in helping to lift knowledge and expertise of the brands. Specifically to help them to maximize value. I know that you've spent time on the front lines of the fast growing space during the early stages of your time at Coles.

[00:09:28] I know you also spent a lot of time learning from leaders in the US and the UK. And so on the basis of what you have seen and learned, how would you define the growth horizons that retail media networks need to go through or go through as they're building capability and sophistication? Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I think, as you mentioned, we're only literally probably somewhere between four or five years old as a sector in Australia.

[00:09:57] So if you go back, you know, back to when we set up Coles and Coles 360, it was important to be able to look overseas for those mature markets. I think so we're probably in that phase one from an Australian perspective. You've probably got the UK was probably in that second that second stage of growth, if you like. And the US of what we define as sort of retail, you know, modern day retail media networks is probably in that third base of the, you know, the mature market.

[00:10:25] So I think, look, from what I can say from the UK, you know, it's formative years to understand where the opportunity was, what those businesses would do differently if they had their time again. That was an important question that we posed to everyone.

[00:10:44] I must say, actually, all of those retailers, admittedly, there's it's non conflict and non compete, but really generous with their time and really open to sharing information or obviously confidentiality to one side around the journey that they've been on. So, yeah, that was a huge, huge, huge thank you. We've made some great, great relationships and great partnerships, which will ensure to nurture as time goes on. But look, observations around that. The US is definitely further ahead. It's mature.

[00:11:13] They've got Amazon to one side, actually, that's an important sort of distinction, I think, for the local market. But they've got established players like Walmart Connect, Albertsons, Kroger, retailers that have real scale, mature programmatic offerings, a really strong measurement ecosystems. So it's really important for us to be able to stand out to the direction of where we were heading.

[00:11:35] I would say the UK is probably more closely aligned with what we've got locally in terms of probably size and complexity, but it's probably moved faster due to earlier investments and greater omnichannel experiences. But again, something to learn. Australia is catching up fast, but we are dealing with more fragmented infrastructure, a smaller market. The economics are different. We're still population of 27 million people, which is quite different compared to some of those markets I mentioned beforehand.

[00:12:06] So that does offer us some sort of unique challenges in the retailer scale of data sort of proposition. I say with that population being smaller, we need to be more strategic about the audience activation of partnerships and how we really start to develop a sophisticated sort of retail media offering. So that's, I would say, the perspective of overview around those markets where I spent most time have been exposed to some of the other markets.

[00:12:31] But I can probably speak in more detail about the UK and the US, because that's where most of the time spent for those businesses. I think we're probably more aligned to those markets in many ways from a market sector, albeit not necessarily geographically. But I think with those phases, I think it's really important for us to understand and businesses and markets to really understand where they are on that phase.

[00:12:56] I think that first phase is really around that foundation and establishment. Right. I'm really thinking about all infrastructure, the model, the media offering, you know, lining up a team strategically, alignment, etc. Very much around that sort of foundation and establishment, which is somewhere between sort of that three and five years. Then I think comes a second phase of growth, which is around is growth in a scaling.

[00:13:23] So how do you get more sophisticated, expanded inventory, a broader sort of partnership ecosystem, better measurement, more sophisticated tooling, technology partnerships, etc. It's probably what we define as that stage two. And then finally, is sort of stage three, which is where I see the US at the moment is around that innovation and platforming and ecosystem evolution.

[00:13:49] So really starting to see that they are now building their own technology stacks on the channel integration, advanced technology stack that I just mentioned and suite of services outside of probably what was core. So you think about what they're doing with their data, how they're partnering and really enterprise level partnerships.

[00:14:09] You see, and acquisitions as well. If you look at the likes of some of the partnerships with Hulu, if you look at the acquisition of Vizio, the Walmart Connect, we're really starting to see a very different retail media sector evolving and growing. So I think it's those three different stages and we're very much around towards that end of the first stage across an AMZ perspective.

[00:14:36] I think there are a number of really interesting points you've just touched on, Paul. The first being the ability to drive scale in our local market. It is a much smaller market than other markets. And so that ability to build robust audiences for activation can be challenging. We've seen a number of local retailers deploying marketplaces. The likes of Woolworths is one, and they also acquired MyDeal. Bunnings is another, and there are several others.

[00:15:04] And they've invested in these to not only deliver additional range to their customers, but to also grow their audiences and inventory for retail media. And it's a really important consideration for local retailers who are thinking about retail media. Do they have the scale and reach? And if they don't, what strategies are they going to deploy to grow that audience and reach? One of the other really interesting elements that you've just touched on is that we, as a market, are a follower.

[00:15:33] And that affords us the ability to learn from those who have gone before us. For those looking to build effective and compelling networks, it's really useful to learn from those in other markets that are in more mature stages of network growth than us, like you've outlined earlier. The final thing that you touched on, which I think some of our listeners won't be as happy to hear is that better measurement comes in the second horizon.

[00:16:00] And that is a real challenge for brands. When we think about the shift that is occurring around their budgets and the need to invest more heavily in this space from a partnership perspective, we know that many brands are struggling with the measurement piece. And I think you've rightly pointed out, you know, that measurement maturity doesn't usually occur in the first horizon, but it's a really important part of the proposition.

[00:16:30] And I think many brands are struggling with that locally today in Australia. So I think it's a really important one to point out for brand and retailer alike to understand, you know, when that likely starts to mature within the life cycle. Yeah. And I think it's very much a journey as well, I think, is in terms of about measurement. It's not something that can be invariably get solved overnight.

[00:16:58] So it's very much around being setting expectations up front around where you are on that, what the expectations are, where you are on that journey. And then ultimately is where you're where you're heading as well from a north star perspective. And one of the I suppose that one of the unique propositions around a retail media proposition is the ability to be close to the point of transaction and prove that the investment made in those channels is is is is is working.

[00:17:28] And it's proving incremental incrementality. So it's shifting behavior and it's increasing sales is ultimately where everybody wants that to get to. But say that that doesn't happen quickly is, you know, there's fragmented channels, there's fragmented ecosystems. There's sophistication that needs to happen, you need digitized assets, right? You know, do the quicker that you can move to all sort of identifiable transactions. And it needs to be evolving.

[00:17:59] And I think that's the business has got to be really clear, I think, up front around where they are, where they're heading and how do they work with brands and partners in that space? And that's the business to prove out the model. That's actually a really good point. There's a real need to take the brands along with you from a measurement journey perspective as the network builds maturity. I see a real opportunity for retailers and brands to co-create and work together to shape what good looks like.

[00:18:24] But also more broadly, because it builds confidence for brands that maturity is building, it's really important that they are kept abreast of what is happening, that they are aware of what's coming. And they really feel like they're being heard, particularly because it is such a big friction point for many in this market. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the things we talked about, maybe some of the challenges at the start, but I think that that will be a continued challenge.

[00:18:53] Because if you are a brand, you are potentially working with more, if you think of, I don't pick any of the big brands already working with multiple sort of above the line of media owners and publishers. And now increasingly, they are going to be working with multiple retail networks, all got non-standardized ways of doing things, probably different measurement frameworks, different ways of working.

[00:19:20] So I think that the sector, as I said, is becoming, there's huge growth, there's huge opportunity there, but there's also become some challenges. And one of the challenges is to not become really difficult as a sector for brands to be able to deal with and create more friction, more challenges for them.

[00:19:40] And that's where I see, I think, and hopefully, where a lot of the effort should be going in terms of that phase two, in terms of, you know, removing some of that friction and complexity for brands. And I think that's a really important point. What we're seeing from some of our data is that brands are now using upward of three, four networks, particularly if they're within sectors like health and beauty, personal care.

[00:20:05] And so in a market where you've got one or two players, the friction isn't as big a problem as once you start, you know, leaning into a market that has three or four players and you have a number of different options from a retail media point of view, that simplicity piece becomes critical in order to maximize share and revenue from brands. So I think that's a really, really important point.

[00:20:33] There's a lot of appetite in the market by many local retailers here to build and launch retail media networks. I think it is, you know, there is a lot of hype and interest in the sector and it's seen as a really big opportunity to offset margin pressures, particularly as cost of doing business here in Australia has risen as a result of inflation, but also because of the shift to e-commerce.

[00:21:02] So you've been in the trenches, obviously, building Coles 360 for a number of years. What are some of the biggest learnings and lessons that you've taken with you that you can share with retailers that are thinking about investing in this space or are currently in the early stages of their journey? Yeah. Yes, it's a great point.

[00:21:26] And I think that one of the things that I've been thinking about and having discussions around is just because you can, it doesn't mean you should. So I think there's a lot of businesses are looking at this as a growth sector. I think they're looking at the opportunity that sits within their business to be able to deliver to the top line and the bottom line. But it's not for the faint hearted, right? It is complex. It is challenging.

[00:21:55] So it's almost like there's a number of things that you need to ask yourself as a business around, but is it the journey that you want to take? So there's some validation, essentially, that needs to be done up front. And I would just urge caution around what the validation is as well, because there are examples, I think, where businesses have worked with other businesses. And there's probably unrealistic expectations around the growth and how quickly that growth comes as well. So I think I just urge caution.

[00:22:24] So very much around that validation to start with. And then, as usual, if you can get through the validation and there's broad-based alignment around launching a retail media business. And they're not all the same. Every single one should be different because of the fact that different businesses, different strategy, different visions, different categories as well. It's been largely dominated by grocery and pharmaceutical up until now, but I do see that changes as well.

[00:22:54] I think there's opportunity for any other businesses. If businesses have got an audience, businesses have got assets or real estate, and if they've got an appetite to monetize or commercialize those, then they, for all intents and purposes, got a retail media business. That's something that's quite interesting as well. I think how the moniker of retail media changes over time as well.

[00:23:17] But I think if you've got to that stage, I think there's almost like five or six sort of the ICs or areas of focus that are really important. That stakeholder alignment up front is absolutely critical in terms of aligning the business, aligning teams internally, and ensuring that education piece is done up front. I think, I believe also you've got to be able to respect the core business.

[00:23:42] Yes, this is a moving into another sector, and we think about from retail and moving to publisher, but it's got to be able to enhance and not compete with the core. And I think that's a learning for all businesses. That is around defining guardrails, et cetera, but being really disciplined, operationally disciplined as well. I think that this is really important for brands because they are leaning into existing processes and ways of working and partnering with retailers, whether that's through JBPs or otherwise.

[00:24:13] And if the retailer is aligned, it makes it much easier for the brands to engage with this new proposition alongside of the existing ways of working. And of course, this will challenge ways of working. Retailers will need to evolve in terms of the way that they engage with the market. But equally, making it really easy for brands to understand how I engage and how these conversations are linked to other conversations that I'm having with the retailer, I think are really important.

[00:24:43] Yeah, absolutely. Basically, conversations that we have in market. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's one of the interesting things I'd like to see as the sector evolves is around sort of brands taking, having a voice in market around what their expectations are in and around this space. Because I think that's probably, I think that's a big opportunity in terms of how they're facing too. But your point is, you know, being really aware of all of those different conversations internally.

[00:25:11] Most of the businesses are multifaceted, different stakeholders can be siloed. So ensuring that you're as joined up as possible. So I think making sure that that is respecting the core business, but also being open and willing to change into what is a very fluid and evolving space. Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah.

[00:25:34] And then I think there's seeing media as a product as well and building media as a product, I'd say is pretty important. Think beyond just campaign execution. I think increasingly in going back to removing those points of friction, how can you make sure that creating scalable, repeatable solutions that work for clients? And that is driven by, you know, cross-functional product teams as well, alongside all the other disciplines within a retail media network.

[00:26:02] So they're probably three, I think four. I've got six. So bear with me. I've got three more to go. It's enjoyable. Yeah. And we touched upon it earlier. Measurement is non-negotiable. Yes. I think in an ideal state, you'd embed sales attribution incrementality from the start. But as we mentioned earlier, it is a journey. But brands are investing significant amount of dollars into their partners.

[00:26:28] So you've got to be able to demonstrate the return on that or how that work in media is. And I think that's really important as well. So aligning measurement and brand out comes up front and insurance education and expectation setting up top. And I think you're right.

[00:26:44] I think you're right because from a brand point of view, as retailers look to gain a bigger share of pie of brand investment, not just trade dollars, those marketers, those brand leaders are used to having very robust reporting from publishers and their media agencies. And that's been happening well before retail media networks were introduced into the market.

[00:27:12] So I think that from a retailer point of view, retailers need to benchmark themselves against what is happening outside of the industry, not necessarily what's happening within the retail media industry itself. Yeah, absolutely. And again, we can look overseas for best case examples around that. But we can also look locally for the bodies to be able to support that.

[00:27:36] I know that the IAB is doing some fantastic work locally in terms of driving better standards, standardization, sort of trying to help brands and the market reduce complexity and avoid some of the challenges of what we've seen probably in the past when it comes to measurement. And we're in the sort of agency publisher world. So we've got, you know, the opportunity to be able to do that. So I think we've definitely and absolutely learn from overseas.

[00:28:03] But we've also got, you know, a really strong body looking to change and drive that internally. Sorry, locally. Yeah. And then I'd probably say the last couple of points is around talent. I think that's really important is there are not pre-assembled retail media teams. I think you go to lots of other industries and most people have started in a sector and then gone through and risen through the ranks to come in and lead a business.

[00:28:32] That's certainly not the case of retail media. But it is the multiplier. I think if you can blend retail, media, data and commercial expertise to bring sort of that combined expertise together, you'll probably achieve the best outcomes. Retailers and publishers are very different, right? Ways of working, background, et cetera.

[00:28:56] So it's really important that a retail media network, as they're setting up, so they can understand, like, the core business, the way that retailers look at the world and vice versa. And I think that will continue to evolve and change given what we said as hell. We're still relatively early in the journey.

[00:29:11] And do you think that retailers need to think outside the box from a talent perspective and that they may need to grow some of this talent rather than finding it within the industry, given the nascent nature of the industry locally? Yes. Yes. Yeah, I think it's a combination of those things.

[00:29:32] I think with any organisation, I think having the right balance, IP within that business, but also bringing in fresh perspective, specialism from different fields. And then how do you combine all of those to lead the best? Diversify talent, right? It's diversify talent. And I think that's what all businesses should be challenging themselves to do.

[00:29:55] I think if you've got, if you start to swing one way too far, I think then that's probably you're not going to achieve the success that you need and the business could have. So I think it's that diversify talent. As I said, they're not pre-assembled teams either. So you need to hire for agility, for learning. And increasingly what I've learned as well is ambiguity.

[00:30:20] I think this is an evolving and changing sector, which is evolving daily. This isn't a monthly thing. It is literally evolving daily. So how you buy, not necessarily just against craft and skill set, but also mindset, I think is a really important thing because it is so fluid and it is so dynamic that people in this business need to be really prepared for that sort of change.

[00:30:45] But I think if that is done and I think that investing in people, I think that will unlock the growth and the capability. So look for skill specialisation when hiring. And that may not come from a background in retail media specifically, but aligns to the capabilities you're seeking to build as a network or augment and also hire for mindset alongside of those technical skills. Absolutely. Spot on. Yeah. Some really, really great advice there. So let's bring in the brand perspective.

[00:31:15] We know that many Australian brands see a host of opportunities afforded by retail media, particularly because locally e-commerce teams and shopper teams are usually quite lean. And so retail media provides, I would say, somewhat a plug and play opportunity to play a much bigger role on digital shelf, even though it's not plug and play, but that ability to turn it on.

[00:31:40] And adapt on the basis of what they're seeing opens up new opportunities. But it is also creating a host of challenges, including the ability to navigate a growing number of networks. I mentioned before that a number of brands are already using three or four networks and we have more entering the market every few months.

[00:32:02] That piece around the ability to measure and quantify return to unlock additional investment over time, I think is a really big issue locally that we've already touched on.

[00:32:16] And brands are really experiencing growing pains of retailers, I would say, in terms of how to navigate retail relationships as a result of new retail media functions being embedded right through to as retailers stand up new capability, new product. They're really grappling with understanding that.

[00:32:42] So what are some of the challenges that you're seeing in market that brands are grappling with? And what advice would you give to brands as a result? Yeah, I think you're 100% right. I think these are some of the challenges that brands are facing. Fragmentation is the big one.

[00:33:01] And again, I will look overseas again, because if I look at what, going back five years, there were probably about between just under 20 retail media networks in the US. 18 months ago, there were 68 and now there's just under 100. Now, I know certain categories, they're not all categories will play with all of those networks, but there will be some, some categories of it will have multiple offerings. So I think fragmentation is the key.

[00:33:29] And we are definitely starting to see that happen locally. Got multiple networks, each with their own formats, platforms, technologies, processes, ways of working. And I think increasingly... Brands are feeling overwhelmed, right? Absolutely. You just hit the nail on the head as to why they're feeling so overwhelmed as you play that out. Overwhelmed, yeah. And that's really hard to manage across the board. And I think that's hard.

[00:33:55] That's probably challenging enough when you've got the right infrastructure, the right setup and the right capability there. And when that is not quite there yet, and it will change and it will evolve, I think that can make it really difficult for brands. And I think that's something that the sector needs to be aware of. And certainly the networks do as well. So I think fragmentation for sure. Measurement and inconsistency. I think not all networks are created equally.

[00:34:20] As I said, some offer fairly basic campaign reporting and post-campaign reviews, while others are looking and working towards more full funnel reporting and a whole host of offerings and solutions in between. So the measurement inconsistency. I think the third one I would probably point out is around budget confusion as well. We talked a little bit around sort of where the money comes from.

[00:34:45] Retail media really blurs the lines between trade, shopper and brand. And I think from what I've observed, some brands are unsure around where that money comes from or which pops it comes from and how that gets treated, the financial treatment internally. So it goes back to around that budget alignment is really, really important. I think that's a really, really valid, important one to touch on in a little bit more detail.

[00:35:09] And we see very similar things in market where those that are executing retail media might not be the ones that are holding the budget for retail media. And so there is challenges and friction internally just to get that alignment on and that buy-in in terms of how much they want to spend and where that funding is going to go. And that's before they've even started running activity.

[00:35:40] Exactly right. Yeah, yep, yep. So I think that's what brands are facing. It's what the market, but certainly brands are facing into. We touched upon briefly around capability gaps as well. There's not pre-assembled sort of specialist teams. So many brands are still building teams, internal knowledge of what their operating models like and then how do they plan by retail media effectively.

[00:36:05] And then also how do they plan and buy integrated media and retail media effectively as well. So capability is a big one. And just the immaturity from a retailer perspective. There's some retailers are rushing to market. I think going back to the point about being really considered around why retailers want to set up a retail media network and what does that look like.

[00:36:28] But what we are seeing is, you know, multiple retailers setting up and moving quite quickly without necessarily some of that infrastructure and consistency that can deliver brand confidence. So I think that that's a watch out as well.

[00:36:43] There is probably a need for brands to do more due diligence up front to ensure they understand the retailer's maturity to assess whether or not they can deliver on what it is that they are suggesting that they can deliver on in market to have that confidence before they make that initial investment. Is that what I'm hearing? Yes, yeah. And also that they've got internally the bandwidth to be able to support their ambitions as well. Yeah, great.

[00:37:09] So based on those challenges, any final words of advice you'd give to brands to help them navigate some of the challenges that they're facing? Yeah, I would very much treat it as strategic investment, not just a cost to do in business. I think that's important. And I ask those challenges, the hard questions around value, around return and around efficiency and the SLAs that support any partnership. Yep.

[00:37:38] I would say, number one, I think I'll definitely push for standardisation as well. How do you collaborate with retailers to improve consistency in measurement and reporting? I'd probably say there's a whole host more, but I think there would be the two I'd really hone in on. Yes, yes. And I think they are really, really important in light of some of the measurement issues that brands are facing,

[00:38:02] that kind of level setting up front and understanding what you can expect in terms of outcomes. Obviously, media, you don't know the full performance, but what does the retailer understand in terms of past campaigns they've run for others, within your category, and also just understanding what will be provided post-campaign or post-activity to, you know,

[00:38:30] have that assurity that you're going to be able to report back into the organisation, I think is a really, really important talking point. You're right. It's the accountability piece, right? Yes. So how do you hold your partners accountable for your investment? Yes. Don't be afraid to demand better performance. Yes. Transparency. Yes. From your partners. And I think that's a really important point. Which is a shift in the traditional retailer and consumer brand relationship, right?

[00:39:00] That demanding for accountability and for answers is probably not something that has occurred in the past as much as it probably needs to now occur. So this has been such an interesting conversation, Paul. I've really enjoyed the time that we've spent unpacking your time in the industry and sharing some really valuable insights for retailers and brands alike.

[00:39:25] Thank you so much for joining us on our very first APAC edition of Unpacking the Digital Shelf. I hope that you've enjoyed the time as well. Absolutely, Teresa. It's been very therapeutic as well. And thank you to everyone for tuning into Unpacking the Digital Shelf, the APAC edition with me, Teresa Sperdy. Thank you. Thank you.