[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where we explore brand manufacturing in the digital age.
[00:00:16] Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. Sometimes talking about the future of shopping, in capital letters, can be so annoying.
[00:00:26] Well, thanks for telling me someday we will be flying like the Jetsons, look it up Gen Z, but what good does that do me now?
[00:00:33] That's why it was so satisfying to talk about the near future of shopping, the cool, impactful experiences that are being created now by early adopters, with Nat Pavic, founder and host of the Salesforce Commerce Cloud Innovations podcast, and a product marketer at Salesforce.
[00:00:50] Take a listen. Maybe the next best thing for your company is nearer than you think.
[00:00:55] Welcome to the podcast, Nat. We are so grateful and excited to have you on.
[00:01:00] Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so happy to be here and talking to you.
[00:01:04] We're really excited because coming next, it's a popular topic for almost every brand as they try to plan for the next big thing in commerce or try to predict a new trend.
[00:01:15] You spend your time focused on the future, but not sort of the hand-wavy, flying car type, very future-focused ideas, but what you call the near future, which I love.
[00:01:28] I have to ask you before we dive into that.
[00:01:30] It says that you have a patent in generative promotions at Salesforce.
[00:01:36] Sorry, but I just would love to know what that is.
[00:01:40] Sounds very AI, but I don't know if that is.
[00:01:42] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:01:45] I'm sure this is going to be mentioned in the intro, but obviously I work at Salesforce as a product marketer, and I host the Salesforce Commerce Cloud Innovations podcast.
[00:01:53] In case you want to hear about that and more, anything here piques your interest in terms of what I'm going to say.
[00:02:00] Yes, I do.
[00:02:01] Let me tell you about that.
[00:02:02] It's actually something I found at Salesforce, so Salesforce owns it.
[00:02:05] I'm an inventor, but it was actually really inspired with the work that I used to do with automotive and automotive clients.
[00:02:13] They had a problem of very complex incentives with very little visibility into which ones of them were effective.
[00:02:20] And so dynamic audience management and promotion executioners, I call it Dampy, is really a system to generate a promotion based on existing data, organize that promotion, publish it, and then take the information for its effectiveness and continue to refine.
[00:02:41] So basically an idea of like, is it actually moving the needle for us in the way that we want it to?
[00:02:48] And what are the other promotions that we should be doing?
[00:02:52] And the reason that I thought that this might be a patentable idea is because there was something missing from the existing systems in terms of the ability to execute that level of personalization.
[00:03:04] And so we really needed a new concept for how you could do it.
[00:03:09] That is so cool.
[00:03:10] Do you get like a certificate when you have a patent or is there some proof that you, I mean, other than looking it up, of course, but do you get a thing?
[00:03:20] It's funny.
[00:03:20] You can order a thing.
[00:03:22] And actually, I did, but I totally forgot.
[00:03:26] And so like I ordered it like six years after the fact.
[00:03:30] I wasn't even sure.
[00:03:31] Like three years later, I was like, oh, it's been approved because it just feels like it like it'll go through the system and hangs for a while.
[00:03:37] But I got a little like cube that says, and I'm Canadian.
[00:03:40] And so it's really cool because it says U.S.
[00:03:42] patent on it.
[00:03:43] So I'm like patented in America, which is kind of neat.
[00:03:46] That's cool.
[00:03:48] Yeah.
[00:03:48] That's awesome.
[00:03:49] Thank you for sharing that with us.
[00:03:50] And now that we know that you're brilliant, let's get back to near future.
[00:03:53] Tell us what you are focused on when you think about sort of near future exploration.
[00:03:59] Yeah.
[00:04:01] So and there are people at Salesforce who work on long term future.
[00:04:05] Actually, it's called the futurist team.
[00:04:07] And I think that there's a lot of people out there who are futurists.
[00:04:10] I think what's fascinating is that there is a world in which a lot of the tech to achieve the near future is available but isn't widely adopted.
[00:04:19] Right.
[00:04:20] So we're there's a lot of tech that is like very much at the early adopter stage.
[00:04:24] And the potential of that tech is to change everything retail and commerce related is huge.
[00:04:32] And so I love to envision like what if we were perfect adopters and we understood exactly how this tech was going to benefit?
[00:04:39] What are the customer experiences that we could be creating today?
[00:04:42] And what are the technologies that we need to execute in those experiences?
[00:04:46] So I think what's surprising when I talk to people is that the near future is a lot more futuristic than they think.
[00:04:54] You know, it's like we already have the tech today.
[00:04:58] And the reason I know this is because I work a lot with partners and I do a lot of alliances go to market.
[00:05:03] And I just I come across all kinds of tech solutions.
[00:05:06] Not only that, but partners that are putting tech in, you know, combining it in different ways to to meet customer demand.
[00:05:14] And so it's really customers and retailers and brands that are driving the innovation.
[00:05:19] It's them that adopt and create these experiences and then demand that those experiences and that tech be created and provided by the vendors.
[00:05:28] And so that's where, you know, whenever we have an innovation conversation, that's why the podcast is called Commerce Cloud Innovations.
[00:05:34] It's not about the innovation that the vendor hands to you.
[00:05:38] These are the peak, the building blocks.
[00:05:40] These are the pieces and the building blocks of the customer, innovative customer experience that as a brand and retailer can execute.
[00:05:47] And those are the innovations that the brands and retailers do themselves.
[00:05:50] So they can take it upon themselves to create those innovative experiences.
[00:05:55] That's very cool.
[00:05:56] And and do you have something that you're thinking about right now that is in that area of near future?
[00:06:04] You know, it's funny.
[00:06:05] I actually had an interview on so some of our partners do podcasts as well.
[00:06:09] So I had an interview on the Verbal Cyber podcast.
[00:06:12] And it's I love being interviewed with developers because it gives me an idea of like what they're looking for and what they need.
[00:06:21] And we had this question of like, what are you looking for from the Salesforce roadmap?
[00:06:26] And my wish list was I just want to like like their wish list was like I want better logs.
[00:06:32] I want better logs and I want a standalone managed runtime.
[00:06:36] I'm not going to sort of belabor what that means here, but I'm happy to explain it later.
[00:06:40] And my wish list was like, I want to speak to it and have it create an experience for me.
[00:06:48] So I think that there's a lot of generative right now that we are sort of at the bulletin board stage of generative.
[00:06:55] We don't know what are the big categories that are going to be created.
[00:06:59] And so we're experimenting.
[00:07:01] And I think I think that's happening in e-commerce specifically.
[00:07:05] I don't know if we'll get to this, but we were seeing people drop the E.
[00:07:08] I actually like looked up the definition of e-commerce today and it was like shopping that occurs on the Internet.
[00:07:14] And it's like, well, well, if you think about the ways in which the Internet is all encompassing and pervasive everywhere, including in the store.
[00:07:22] This is why e-commerce is now grown to have and be a bigger category.
[00:07:27] So we're seeing people drop the E from the e-commerce and just calling it commerce because you could be in store and purchasing online.
[00:07:35] So this whole concept of brick and mortar and online is kind of blending and moving away.
[00:07:42] And so one of the things that generative is doing is making it easier for us to build experiences.
[00:07:47] And I think we've in tech and software in general, we've spent a lot of time building templates, building wizards and UI and saying, oh, well, our interface is very intuitive.
[00:07:56] But it's intuitive for humans, not for machines.
[00:08:00] Templates actually get in the way of machines.
[00:08:02] And so I think templates may go away as a primary way in which we interact with technology.
[00:08:10] And it'll move to be sort of we speak to it and it can do, you know, execute for us.
[00:08:16] I think that's that's sort of a macro trend.
[00:08:19] But it's going to affect the technologies that are going to be possible and the tech that's going to be adopted by retailers and brands.
[00:08:26] From your lips to God's ears.
[00:08:27] I think that sounds amazing.
[00:08:29] I would love that power.
[00:08:32] And God, in this case, is someone at Salesforce.
[00:08:34] We'll see.
[00:08:36] Actually, I think God is the customer.
[00:08:40] The customer is who we worship.
[00:08:41] And she's amazing.
[00:08:43] Yes.
[00:08:45] So now then if you think about those and translating into kind of like the future of the store and maybe store is not the right word because store is going away.
[00:08:53] Like, what are you thinking about from a near future perspective around the concept of air quoting store?
[00:08:59] Yeah, there's a few things.
[00:09:01] So let's think about let's think about what are the experiences that you hate in the store?
[00:09:05] And I'm going to pick on two fitting rooms and check out.
[00:09:11] Yes.
[00:09:11] Fitting rooms.
[00:09:12] Who wants to stand in line?
[00:09:13] You've got five different outfits and only one of them fits.
[00:09:16] And you come back and the lady says, did it go okay?
[00:09:20] And you have to say, no, actually, it was awful.
[00:09:22] I look terrible in nine of these.
[00:09:24] Okay.
[00:09:24] Don't ask me that question.
[00:09:26] And then you walk out.
[00:09:27] It's like you're waiting in line.
[00:09:29] So if you think about those two aspects of the store and how they could be streamlined,
[00:09:32] there's a lot of companies adopting virtual try-ons for apparel.
[00:09:38] And I think virtual try-on has been around for furniture and shoes and accessories.
[00:09:43] But it's actually a really tough challenge to solve for apparel because there's multiple dimensions to it.
[00:09:49] There's how does it fit on you?
[00:09:50] What is your body shape?
[00:09:52] What is your body type?
[00:09:56] Right.
[00:09:58] It's not a fitting room.
[00:09:59] It's a virtual try-on mirror.
[00:10:02] And you can see right then and there whether or not this is going to fit on you.
[00:10:05] And there's all kinds of personalization technology that could be used in identifying what does fit on you.
[00:10:10] I was shopping for dresses online and I thought I'd try something different.
[00:10:15] And I ordered two new dresses from Hilara and a maxi dress.
[00:10:20] And I was like, you know what?
[00:10:20] I always get maxi dresses.
[00:10:22] I'm just going to get these ones.
[00:10:23] And then when I received them, I was like, oh, this is why I always buy maxi dresses, right?
[00:10:29] There's a reason.
[00:10:30] Because I'm most comfortable with that fit.
[00:10:33] And so it would be great if, you know, the engine could be like, hmm, you've picked an unusual fit.
[00:10:39] But here's what you usually buy and there's a reason, you know, you buy it.
[00:10:42] And so you can start to do that even without virtual try-on is you can start to surface to the customer the types, profiles, and attributes in that product that are mapped to their most frequent and more successful lease return purchases.
[00:10:53] So you can start to encourage and help the customer really kind of find what looks good on them and what makes them feel good.
[00:11:00] Because clothing is so standardized and fragmented that it just โ it's literally a small percentage that will fit on any given person, right?
[00:11:08] And so virtual try-on is great.
[00:11:11] And I was impressed to figure out that there's already โ like there's already brands doing that.
[00:11:15] There's no reason.
[00:11:17] Other brands can't adopt this.
[00:11:18] But like I know Zara and H&M and ASOS, Nike, Gucci, Warby Parker, Adidas, Tommy Hilfiger are all brands already doing some of this stuff.
[00:11:27] And there's this concept of magic mirror that's sort of coming into view where you can start to do that today, which is exciting.
[00:11:35] And that kind of focuses on the experience and kind of the infotainment piece of consumers going to a store and interacting digitally but being there physically.
[00:11:45] Are there any other kind of things that you're seeing?
[00:11:48] And how are you seeing consumers react to like wanting an experience versus just going and doing a transaction in a store?
[00:11:55] That's a great question.
[00:11:56] And I think we are now expecting more from a store than we were before because e-commerce is so convenient.
[00:12:04] I know for myself, I have a two-year-old.
[00:12:07] And if I have to choose between going out and shopping for this item and spending this extra quality time with my daughter, the choice is easy.
[00:12:16] And the only exception is like, I'm not kidding here, but I actually go to Walmart and I'll go there with my husband and my husband will entertain my daughter.
[00:12:26] They'll go to the bike section and ride all the bikes.
[00:12:29] They'll go see the Halloween decor.
[00:12:32] They'll play with all the toys.
[00:12:34] The attendant will come by and say, stop doing that.
[00:12:36] And they'll just like spend 30 minutes doing that while I do the grocery shopping.
[00:12:41] But I was thinking like, I wish we had more.
[00:12:44] Like I wish that they thought about that and thought about the needs of parents because you could certainly imagine a situation in which the store is providing an entertainment area for kids.
[00:12:52] It's providing multiple different types of shopping experiences.
[00:12:57] And so I was actually talking to Liesl Walsh, who's the SVP of e-commerce at Boston Proper.
[00:13:02] And she told me about this company in Texas called Shields.
[00:13:04] Have you guys heard of this?
[00:13:06] It's S-H-E-E-L-S.
[00:13:09] So she's actually interviewed on my podcast.
[00:13:11] That's going to air as well.
[00:13:13] But they're, get this, they're a one-stop shop for everything Texas.
[00:13:17] So anything a Texan might need.
[00:13:19] And they have apparently like a cafe, a restaurant, a carousel.
[00:13:23] Like they have like an amusement park.
[00:13:25] And it's just one store.
[00:13:26] It's not even like a mall or anything, right?
[00:13:29] And that makes it worthwhile to go.
[00:13:30] That makes it easy because there, you know, I am looking for things to do.
[00:13:34] And my kid's a late sleeper.
[00:13:35] She doesn't go to sleep until 1030.
[00:13:37] And our entertainment is like Home Depot.
[00:13:40] She wants to go to Home Depot and see the holiday display.
[00:13:43] But I wish I could do all my shopping while I'm there.
[00:13:45] And so I think definitely stores need to evolve to be multifunctional, multipurpose.
[00:13:50] And also this idea of like persona-based targeting.
[00:13:55] So instead of just being like, we are pants.
[00:13:58] Or, you know, some brands may focus on being like, we're really good at making pants.
[00:14:02] And that's like our thing.
[00:14:03] That's great.
[00:14:04] But like if you start to think about the persona that's shopping there, what do they need?
[00:14:07] Then you can start to expand to those categories.
[00:14:09] Because there's a lot of retailers that are struggling due to fast fashion.
[00:14:13] Fast fashion is sort of eating their lunch.
[00:14:16] We know Timu and we know Sheen have like something crazy like 60 transactions a year.
[00:14:23] Compared to like your average two or three from a good solid retail performance.
[00:14:28] And they're just, they're creating a lot of assortment and creating a lot of A-B testing and turning things around and inventing things in the manufacturing process that we didn't think would be possible.
[00:14:38] And doing things like slow shipping.
[00:14:40] Like exchanging variability and selection for time.
[00:14:45] And so being like, well, we're going to give you more selection.
[00:14:47] More personalized options.
[00:14:48] But it's going to take two, three weeks to get there because we're going to wait for enough people to order it for us to make it.
[00:14:54] And so how does a traditional American retailer compete with that?
[00:14:58] And so one way would be to increase assortment through marketplaces.
[00:15:02] So we're seeing this concept of marketplaces emerge more.
[00:15:05] It was like really popular and then like kind of went down because we were like, TCO.
[00:15:09] We can't do innovative stuff.
[00:15:10] Let's like, let's hang back.
[00:15:11] And now it's emerging more because it's like the competitive, we have to do it to be competitive.
[00:15:16] So imagine if you were onboarding unique designers or opening up your stuff to people on Etsy that sell really cool stuff and creating assortment without having to carry the supply chain or even worry about manufacturing.
[00:15:27] So there are ways to improve your store and brand performance to not go toe to toe with fast fashion, but to have a different angle and a different perspective and come to it with like, yeah, sure.
[00:15:38] You can go with this fast, cheap, cheaply manufactured stuff or you can come to a curate site and see some really unique designers that you're not going to see anywhere else.
[00:15:46] Right.
[00:15:46] So there are different ways to approach the same problem.
[00:15:50] It's all fascinating.
[00:15:51] Like the opportunities that lay in front of us near future and then, of course, far future to put things together into moments and to be super creative and really personalized in a lot of ways.
[00:16:09] And so one of the things that is the most frustrating, can't be the most frustrating, is just buying the thing and getting the hell out of the store.
[00:16:23] And I'm wondering if you've had any thoughts around how that can be made more convenient, more delightful.
[00:16:31] Do you see any of that in the near future?
[00:16:34] Yeah.
[00:16:35] Yeah.
[00:16:35] And I feel like people are divided on this topic for some reason.
[00:16:40] Like I would have thought the price of bread would be more divisive than self-checkout.
[00:16:44] But the number of times that my friends send me memes of like, they don't pay me to self-checkout.
[00:16:50] Why do I have to do this?
[00:16:51] And then I'll go to the store with like a full grocery cart of like $300 worth of stuff.
[00:16:56] And I'll be like, I actually prefer the self-checkout line because as a psychopath, I think I'm faster than the cashier.
[00:17:05] And I have no patience.
[00:17:06] We're waiting for her to bag it.
[00:17:08] I want to bag it.
[00:17:08] I would also be a psychopath then.
[00:17:10] There you go.
[00:17:11] My husband's like, what's wrong with you?
[00:17:14] Yeah.
[00:17:14] Yeah.
[00:17:15] More efficient.
[00:17:17] Yeah.
[00:17:17] Yeah.
[00:17:19] I'm like your worst customer, basically.
[00:17:22] And, you know, I think that scanning is painful.
[00:17:27] I think groceries, obviously, a lot of grocers are experimenting with this today.
[00:17:30] We know about Amazon checkout.
[00:17:32] We know that you can like walk out and have it deducted from your wallet.
[00:17:35] Kroger is exploring that.
[00:17:36] There's a ton of grocers already doing that today.
[00:17:41] Carrefour and Target.
[00:17:44] But what's next level?
[00:17:46] Right.
[00:17:46] So we think about this.
[00:17:47] It's like you got the items and you still got to go to checkout and you got to leave and that whole bagging process takes on.
[00:17:52] And then if you're deducting from your pay wallet directly, there is room for error.
[00:17:57] Then there's also like stealing.
[00:17:58] You have to like if you're doing self-checkout, you have to like scan the items and have a.
[00:18:02] So there's like a whole bunch of really prohibitive issues with that whole experience.
[00:18:09] A next level experience would be you have the scanning in your app.
[00:18:14] You have it on your phone and you scan through your phone.
[00:18:18] So you have a UPC scanner and then you check out and you might not even walk out with anything.
[00:18:22] Right.
[00:18:23] So you might actually go to the store as a way to sample and see and experience.
[00:18:27] And then imagine being like, and I don't have to take a bag with me.
[00:18:30] That will be shipped to my house.
[00:18:31] Or you could have couriers in the mall literally bagging it and taking it to you when you leave and when you're done with your shopping experience or even helping you to your car.
[00:18:41] Right.
[00:18:42] So it doesn't even have to be like an e-commerce related transaction where it gets sent to your house.
[00:18:46] They could have someone else pick and pack it, grab it for you so that you're on your way out the door.
[00:18:51] Right.
[00:18:51] So you could imagine a situation in which you're scanning through the store and then it gets ready for you by the time that you leave.
[00:18:57] And what's exciting about this experience is that we're seeing the clienteling, POS, mobile app, world blending and loyalty.
[00:19:07] I would love to throw in a little bit of the loyalty conversation.
[00:19:11] And we have partners like POQ or POC who allow you to build mobile apps that are also transactional, that can create a transaction.
[00:19:21] And they can do that today, but they don't have a lot of customers asking for it.
[00:19:25] Because I don't think people are sort of imagining it in that way.
[00:19:27] And so you can think of a store and think about that checkout system, that fitting room system being completely different.
[00:19:34] And I'm not saying get rid of the associate, but the associate would have fundamentally a different function.
[00:19:40] The associate wouldn't be the person doing the monotonous task.
[00:19:43] They would be the consultant.
[00:19:46] Right.
[00:19:46] And so instead of having four associates that do monotonous tasks, you would have one expert associate that probably has a better job, a higher salary, benefits, that can tell you what looks good on you without faking it.
[00:19:57] You know, like that, like, oh, it looks so good on you.
[00:19:59] Or like the those shoes will stretch line.
[00:20:03] Like I don't think I want to hear that ever again.
[00:20:05] They never do.
[00:20:06] Like who's still like why do you still keep perpetuating that line?
[00:20:10] Anyway, so.
[00:20:11] But yeah, you could have an associate who's more of a consultant, like can put, you know, looks together for you, can take a look at your profile, can have a conversation with you about, you know, small talk, make you feel comfortable, maybe bring you, I don't know, espresso.
[00:20:25] That'd be nice.
[00:20:26] You know, bring me a drink.
[00:20:27] I don't know.
[00:20:28] But like basically it's a different like level of experience that you could completely architect your store around that.
[00:20:34] And then it would be desirable.
[00:20:35] It would be the go to place to go because how cool would it be if it was enabled by all these technologies?
[00:20:40] Oh, and I should mention agents.
[00:20:43] So, you know, the launch Dreamforce is launch Agentforce.
[00:20:46] And we have, you know, if you're familiar with ChatGPT and the concept of personal assistance, that can turn into a personal shopper or concierge that can have constant communication with you about your needs.
[00:20:57] Like, you know, let's say I was buying from Party City as an example.
[00:21:01] And, you know, my daughter's wedding is coming.
[00:21:02] Wedding.
[00:21:03] Oh, my gosh.
[00:21:04] She's two.
[00:21:04] Is she going to be there?
[00:21:05] I really live in the future, you guys.
[00:21:07] Her birthday.
[00:21:07] Her birthday is coming up.
[00:21:11] It's not even near to her future.
[00:21:12] Anyway, whatever.
[00:21:14] And I could be like, hey, can you help me plan my daughter's birthday?
[00:21:17] I want it to be astronaut themed.
[00:21:19] And then it could be like, sure, here's what you need.
[00:21:21] You need the balloon, a cake topper.
[00:21:23] And they could like create a list and they create options for me.
[00:21:26] And then I could just go boop, boop, boop.
[00:21:27] And they were like, you want me to add that to your card?
[00:21:29] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:21:30] And so there's room for agents to do all kinds of stuff like that to help facilitate the entire shopping experience and make it easier, especially for the holidays.
[00:21:39] So, you know, especially if you're doing holiday planning or wishlist buying, that could be really helpful.
[00:21:44] And I'll say a little bit about loyalty.
[00:21:46] I feel like loyalty is the kind of thing that is also resurfacing.
[00:21:52] And then you always hear this line of like, it's not just a card or points.
[00:21:57] It's a strategy.
[00:21:59] And you'll hear that from consultants.
[00:22:00] And what they're really trying to say is it's not a card or not a platform.
[00:22:06] There isn't actually a single solution out there that will do loyalty for you.
[00:22:11] Loyalty is something that you have to think about with your customers.
[00:22:14] And there's actually opportunity there for Web3 to solve a very, very big problem, which is the idea that data could be portable.
[00:22:25] So imagine if you had a Web3-based loyalty card that you could take two different retailers and you could choose what information you share with whom and who has access to that.
[00:22:37] And then those retailers would append to your NFC, which is a new word for NFT.
[00:22:44] And they would provide information to other retailers in your purchases.
[00:22:49] So you could actually have a profile of like, I, as an example, I don't know, I buy granola at Bulk Barn and also, yeah, right, gluten-free.
[00:22:58] But I also buy vests at Patagonia, right?
[00:23:01] So you create these, all these like connections between different brands.
[00:23:05] And then there's all kinds of opportunity like the Starbucks app does, we know, really well, obviously with the cash.
[00:23:11] That would be an amazing concept for gas and convenience stations to be able to create a cash app that preloads, to be able to shop for food before you get there, to be able to.
[00:23:21] So your loyalty app would become more, you would get access to like extra levels of services.
[00:23:26] So we're seeing this in luxury with companies like JLR and Aston Martin, LVMH.
[00:23:30] They're providing you with like access to events, access to a travel agent who's just for you.
[00:23:35] So there could be services around your persona and your target profile based on your preferences.
[00:23:40] So loyalty is also on the brink of evolving into something new and different.
[00:23:45] I definitely want, because when I take Uber, I like to take the comfort level because I'm bougie and I just like a nice clean car.
[00:23:59] I'll complain about anything.
[00:24:01] I'll find somebody to complain about the rides.
[00:24:03] I'll, trust me.
[00:24:06] So I, one of the things I do is because it's asked what experience you want.
[00:24:10] And one of the things is, do you want conversation or not?
[00:24:13] And, and I don't really.
[00:24:17] Guys, we have so much in common.
[00:24:19] Oh my gosh.
[00:24:20] It's the, we have, we need to have a psycho shopper podcast.
[00:24:24] Who's the worst shopper?
[00:24:25] Talk to each other.
[00:24:27] Oh my God.
[00:24:27] Exactly.
[00:24:28] It'll be completely silent.
[00:24:29] Yeah.
[00:24:30] But you'll feel the, the frustration.
[00:24:32] Um, so I would love to be able to say, you know, when I come into a store, no need to talk to me until I ask you something.
[00:24:43] Uh, and that would just make me feel, there's the boy, this is going to be a therapy session.
[00:24:47] But anyway, as I think about sort of loyalty, part of it is not only the, here's, let me put these products together to you, but what do you want your shopping experience to be like?
[00:24:58] Would be really cool for me at least anyways.
[00:25:00] Well, and that's funny because I think a lot of people feel more comfortable actually talking to an AI than a person, which is kind of funny, right?
[00:25:09] So sometimes when you have that option, like I'll tell you at GPT my deepest, darkest secrets that I won't tell, that I won't burden my friends with because they've done enough therapy for me.
[00:25:19] Right.
[00:25:20] Um, but then I also know that it's unbiased.
[00:25:22] So it will, it doesn't have an agenda, right?
[00:25:24] Sometimes you're in the store and somebody says something looks good on you.
[00:25:27] You're wondering, hmm, are they on commission?
[00:25:30] Are they just trying to make a buck?
[00:25:31] Does this actually really, truly look good on me?
[00:25:33] Um, so, but if I, if the AI tells me my butt's too big in those jeans, I probably won't be offended because it's an AI, right?
[00:25:41] So, um, and it also has the ability to constantly have a, uh, key, like an even tone, right?
[00:25:47] So to, to be rational and continue in the brand tone, no matter how angry or frustrated we get in our, all of our customer journeys as happens sometimes.
[00:25:57] Right.
[00:25:58] So, um, but you'll never have that, um, reaction of like this customer service rep is a gatekeeper because they've decided to dig their heels and that's not going to happen with AI.
[00:26:08] Yeah.
[00:26:08] And I, yeah, and I think that is what's changing here is that AI agent experiences are getting so much better.
[00:26:17] I mean, because it would always be infuriating because they never actually could help you.
[00:26:21] It was just these answers meant to stop you from going to a human.
[00:26:25] Right.
[00:26:25] And, uh, but as it gets better and better, uh, then I, then the opportunity to go speak with a human is because they are going to add, what is that, that they add that you can't and never will get from, or I don't know, never.
[00:26:43] That's fine.
[00:26:44] Well, and there are, yeah, and there are commerce, commerce cloud partners like soul machines or sorry, Salesforce partners like soul machines that, um, they came from the movie industry.
[00:26:52] They actually put a face to the AI.
[00:26:55] So they'll work with open AI, GPT, whatever.
[00:26:58] They can work with any, um, AI, conversational AI, and they will create the CGI look and feel of a person, like an actual person.
[00:27:06] So you feel like you're talking to, uh, talking to a person.
[00:27:09] And what's funny is that brands these days have the ability to design their concierge, um, with a certain tonality brand, like the way that they speak.
[00:27:17] Like if your brand and the person in there speaks a certain way, you can add in more words.
[00:27:21] I think it'd be hilarious if you had a brand that like had a lot of attitude.
[00:27:26] And so, and so you can kind of, you can kind of like, I don't know if you guys watch Schitt's Creek, but I would dig like a Dan Levy, like, um, you know, I don't know about that choice, but okay, you can go with it or something like really sarcastic.
[00:27:40] Like, that would be amazing.
[00:27:41] Neurotic and sarcastic.
[00:27:41] Yeah.
[00:27:42] Yeah.
[00:27:42] I would love to hear, I would love to meet Liquid Deaths.
[00:27:46] Oh my God.
[00:27:46] Yes.
[00:27:47] Agent.
[00:27:49] Yeah.
[00:27:50] I don't know if they would be allowed to.
[00:27:53] Yeah.
[00:27:53] And then, and then the next level is like the immersive experience aspect of it.
[00:27:57] And so, you know, this is already kind of happening today.
[00:27:59] We have, um, partners like Obsess and 3Kit and Unity.
[00:28:03] The, you know, that is a gaming platform, but Obsess is really killing it because they've got JLR and Ulf on, um, these completely immersive Apple Vision Pro apps.
[00:28:13] And these, this is not a demo.
[00:28:14] Like you can literally get the Apple Vision Pro headset, put it on, and you can walk down Fifth Avenue, go through J.Crew store, dress up your avatar and shop with Apple Pay.
[00:28:23] Um, and that's really, really exciting.
[00:28:25] It's not quite there yet in terms of technology.
[00:28:28] There's, um, certain, um, sort of level of, uh, image quality.
[00:28:33] It's not photographic.
[00:28:34] It's still CGI generated.
[00:28:36] So it's not quite there yet.
[00:28:37] Um, and then there's also like the wearable device is not accessible because it's expensive.
[00:28:41] So that needs to get smaller and more accessible.
[00:28:43] Uh, but definitely that's going to be more interesting, especially for travel, huge untapped, travel and renovations, huge untapped market.
[00:28:51] Although the renovation sector is sort of getting up to it.
[00:28:53] So like, imagine you're, and anybody who's listened to any part of my episodes knows that I'm in a five month renovation right now.
[00:28:59] But, um, basically like the ability to imagine your kitchen and change the counters, change the cabinets, see what that all looks like and not make a selection based on swatches.
[00:29:07] Right.
[00:29:08] Um, or like the best thing would be for travel.
[00:29:11] I really hope somebody does this because they could do this today.
[00:29:14] It's like, let's say you want to go on a Disney cruise and you put on the headset and you get to walk through a Disney cruise experience.
[00:29:21] Right.
[00:29:22] Like, cause I have, I've never been on a cruise.
[00:29:24] I have no idea what it is.
[00:29:25] I don't even have an idea of, I don't have a mental image of what it looks like, let alone where things are.
[00:29:31] To pack, how to plan.
[00:29:32] Right, right.
[00:29:33] But if I could get that and like get really hyped.
[00:29:36] And then at the end of that tour, do you want to pre-plan your trip?
[00:29:40] And here's a promotion for having done our immersive experience.
[00:29:43] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:29:44] And I want this room, right?
[00:29:46] Because I saw that room and I'm comfortable with that layout.
[00:29:49] And I like it.
[00:29:51] Um, and I want, you know, going, going to this location because I really like the movie and what you get to see there.
[00:29:57] Um, it would just be like next level for travel booking.
[00:30:02] I love that.
[00:30:04] Peter's also going through a kitchen renovation.
[00:30:06] That's why I pointed at him.
[00:30:07] So I feel like that would be a great for you to hear.
[00:30:10] In our seventh month.
[00:30:11] But again, that's the psychopathy podcast.
[00:30:17] I should, uh, I should bring in my husband in this conversation and you should see the conversations we have with our contractor.
[00:30:25] This is another podcast we'll have.
[00:30:27] I'll bring my husband in and we can all compare notes.
[00:30:32] So Nat, while we're talking about technology, let's talk about this concept of the digital twin.
[00:30:37] Yeah.
[00:30:38] I know that you've really kind of gone deep into that.
[00:30:42] So tell us how to think about that.
[00:30:44] And from a brand perspective, how should they be thinking about using that?
[00:30:47] And what is the benefit of working with a digital twin?
[00:30:51] Yeah.
[00:30:51] So I think it's what's coming to the surface is that data is really hard.
[00:30:56] Data is voluminous and is becoming more unruly.
[00:30:59] Um, things like, um, you know, re-commerce or single item selling is very, very difficult
[00:31:07] because you are trying to create from scratch photos, descriptions, attributes for like millions of SKUs.
[00:31:14] And data has been like really helpful with that.
[00:31:16] But the, you know, technology is like right now we have like a PIM and where you put your product information
[00:31:22] and we're having generative to generate the descriptions.
[00:31:24] This is all good stuff.
[00:31:25] It's still very, very manual and requires a lot of effort.
[00:31:28] Um, the digital twin flips the paradigm on its head.
[00:31:31] So instead of you having tables and databases of product information,
[00:31:35] you have an object that represents a product.
[00:31:38] And a great example would be like a vehicle, a specific type of vehicle.
[00:31:42] Um, and now it's an object meaning that there's all kinds of information appended to it.
[00:31:47] So instead of you having this product and then trying to see where does this product information need to go,
[00:31:52] all of the places where the product is published are actually now getting information from the object.
[00:31:58] So it's like a window looking into the object.
[00:32:00] So it becomes, it, it, the problem of, um, federating that content, publishing that content, ensuring data quality goes away.
[00:32:09] Uh, because it's automatically, if you just, if the data is up to date on the digital twin, it's up to date everywhere.
[00:32:14] Um, and what's great about that concept, it's really huge with like unity, what unity has designed because obviously they're a gaming platform.
[00:32:21] Is you have not just the initial design concept information from the product, but then you have the sales information that can come in and affect the original product.
[00:32:30] So it can even impact how you design it next time.
[00:32:33] If you have the information of like this sold and this didn't, or this narrative work and this didn't, and it changes sort of your next iteration of the product.
[00:32:40] So it's really, really great for very high value assets, assets that cost a lot that, um, where you need a lot of intelligence and understanding for its life cycle.
[00:32:49] Um, and really great for manufacturers, especially like B2B, you know, machinery projects and stuff like that, where you want to create a digital twin of a specific, um, installation.
[00:32:58] Or, you know, let's say you're creating a facility as well.
[00:33:02] You could have a digital twin of a facility and you could anticipate, um, issues.
[00:33:07] Like you could have a simulation of wear and tear and you could sort of predict to have certain, um, metrics that indicate that this part is going to fail.
[00:33:19] But then you could connect that to commerce and have a reorder, um, scenario where you reorder the parts needed, uh, as you predict them to be failing.
[00:33:28] And so that's an excellent way to manage more of the complex B2B selling that's happening out there.
[00:33:36] Would you use it?
[00:33:37] Oh, go ahead, Lauren.
[00:33:38] No, no, no, you go.
[00:33:39] Oh, I was just going to ask a question.
[00:33:40] Can you use it from like a product innovation perspective?
[00:33:44] If we're thinking about something like, um, electronics or like, say you want to build a new type of headphone, but you want to take like an existing product and you want to get user feedback and understand like, what are they not like?
[00:33:56] What are they like?
[00:33:57] And then change that up in the digital twin before actually making the product.
[00:34:01] Would that be like a use case from a brand perspective?
[00:34:04] You could.
[00:34:05] Yeah.
[00:34:05] Ultimately the, the digital twin is a type of technology and you can have whatever objects or attributes, whatever it is that you needed to do.
[00:34:12] It's really just the way to centrally, to centralize product information and manage it in one place and have it live and breathe.
[00:34:19] So I think so.
[00:34:21] Um, I think you could have it serve whatever purposes you needed to serve.
[00:34:26] So I'm slow and old.
[00:34:28] So, um, so help me out here.
[00:34:31] And I've spent the last nine years talking about product attributes and that need to go in their place and they come.
[00:34:37] So what is this digital twin?
[00:34:40] Like, where do I go to get it?
[00:34:42] Who builds it?
[00:34:43] I just, I'm sorry.
[00:34:44] I'm like, really.
[00:34:45] It's a great question.
[00:34:46] Yeah.
[00:34:46] Okay.
[00:34:47] So this is, and this is a good question.
[00:34:50] This is not a bad, I don't get a question.
[00:34:52] So, um, one of the issues with immersive tech, um, jumping, like becoming more mainstream is that everybody has their own individual experiences.
[00:35:05] There's no general purpose, immersive space, meaning a shared space.
[00:35:11] So like, for example, if J.Crew and Elf have stores, they can't put it on the, the Fifth Avenue, um, you know, metaverse.
[00:35:19] Right.
[00:35:20] And so it's actually now a limitation of the tech is because there's a lot of companies building these technologies, but there's no standard protocol to share data between them.
[00:35:29] And there's no standard way to do that.
[00:35:31] So right now the digital twin is a product that you can buy from some companies.
[00:35:37] So one of them being Unity.
[00:35:39] And you can employ the digital twin at your company to help you with product design, ideation, manufacturing, um, selling, and then an iterative design process.
[00:35:50] Um, and so it's, it's proprietary to them, to Unity, right?
[00:35:55] So meaning that if you stop paying Unity, you don't get your digital twin, right?
[00:35:58] So you're kind of locked in.
[00:36:00] Yeah.
[00:36:00] Okay.
[00:36:01] Um, there is another paradigm out there.
[00:36:03] So there's like two paradigms that could be changing this is one, the digital twin is actually really important for immersive.
[00:36:09] Because immersive really works if all of the items are digital twins.
[00:36:13] Um, and then therefore you can interact with the objects individually, as opposed to having to constantly publish new data about every frame.
[00:36:20] That's sort of the benefit of Unity is that they also provide that immersive, which is sort of made because they make games in it.
[00:36:26] It's made like that to generate the right view at the right time based on the objects you're interacting with.
[00:36:31] Um, one is like this concept of composable commerce, which is this idea that like, okay, we are in a world where we are beholden to one vendor.
[00:36:40] But what if we wanted to have this combination of tools or this different best of breed tools, and we don't want to be locked into any vendor.
[00:36:47] And so now you have a lot of people creating architectures that are API first, meaning that I'm going to do everything myself.
[00:36:56] I'm going to take on the heavy lift of what a vendor would typically do, but I'm going to make this happen because it's going to give me the best experience.
[00:37:02] Um, so composable, you know, eventually could have something to do with breaking down some of those silos, breaking down some of those walls.
[00:37:09] And I don't really think we're in the business of shared protocols anymore.
[00:37:13] I feel like those days are gone.
[00:37:15] Um, I think a better technology is now Web3, meaning that the digital twin may be portable as opposed to belonging to a specific vendor.
[00:37:22] Um, because Web3 allows us to share data in a secure way that's decentralized.
[00:37:28] Um, and so there's something there.
[00:37:30] I don't really know what it is.
[00:37:31] It's not like you're, you're kind of Peter actually tapping the extent of my knowledge, but some, some element of composable,
[00:37:39] and Web3 will help us create, um, a shared immersive metaverse world where multiple vendors, um, multiple companies and then multiple brands and retailers can hop on.
[00:37:51] And we can create like a general purpose metaverse utility that people could just participate in, which is like, hopefully that's going to happen.
[00:37:59] That's not the near future.
[00:38:01] Right, right, right.
[00:38:02] That's the further future, right?
[00:38:03] Thank you for cracking the door on this because I keep hearing it.
[00:38:06] I've actually looked it up and it still didn't make any sense for me.
[00:38:09] And you putting in the context and also the exclusive nature of it right now and the setting that comes from, it starts to make a little bit more sense.
[00:38:16] But I think, I think what it, for me, what it speaks to is, is as we're thinking about, um, I've been, I've been thinking a lot about late recently, sort of where shopping is going.
[00:38:31] And where experiences are going and that originally it was all location, location, location.
[00:38:37] Yeah.
[00:38:38] Then it became sort of phone, phone, phone.
[00:38:40] And now it's going to be me, me, me.
[00:38:43] And that to me, uh, listen, you talk about me, um, is, but is why that thing needs to be so fluid that your product needs to be able to sort of morph at a moment's notice based on the me that you're talking to in that moment.
[00:39:02] And so it does seem like all of these things coming together are going to be in service of creating that presumably more delightful experience and also more productive experience for sales, loyalty, et cetera.
[00:39:18] So does that make any sense?
[00:39:20] Yeah. No, it does because you hit the, hit the nail on the head with a concept, which is that like we're moving away from, um, commerce on the desktop, which is where we used to sort of make primarily maker purchases to really commerce anywhere.
[00:39:35] Um, and so we're in this like distributed commerce world now and we're sort of scrambling to make those solutions.
[00:39:40] One is shopping in social, being able to check out right then and there, shopping through a personal assistant.
[00:39:46] Like, you know, I'm sure chat GPT will start to create, um, add to cart buttons.
[00:39:50] We're shopping in TV.
[00:39:51] We're starting to see that you're watching, you know, your favorite Netflix show during the commercial break.
[00:39:57] You can use your Apple TV and Apple pay to buy whatever's being advertised on it.
[00:40:03] Um, shopping through voice, something that's explore, but it could be better.
[00:40:08] Um, and also we're moving away from location being so important, um, because there are some,
[00:40:16] there are some companies and I actually forget the brand example here, but there's one high end brand that will just not open stores.
[00:40:25] And like, uh, I don't know, like the Midwest where it doesn't make sense for them to open stores, but it may have a lot of fans in that area that still want to shop with it.
[00:40:34] And so they'll open a virtual store instead and bring the experience to them virtually.
[00:40:38] Right.
[00:40:38] So we have, we're moving away from like our personas and our target customers are now living anywhere and everywhere, not just in certain key cities.
[00:40:47] And some of that is being driven by the increased cost of living in those dense urban areas.
[00:40:51] And so people are now more distributed and it will be more distributed, especially with remote work, uh, and our digital, you know, connect connectedness.
[00:41:01] People will live in the bush and still shop from Hermes.
[00:41:04] Right.
[00:41:04] So that retailers will have to meet that, um, reality, that world and, you know, not just do physical locations, but really allow people to shop from anywhere.
[00:41:17] Well, Nat, thank you.
[00:41:20] This has been an amazing and circuitous and wonderful journey through the near future.
[00:41:26] Uh, I have to remind everyone that you are the founder and host of the Salesforce Commerce Cloud Innovations podcast available wherever you get your podcast.
[00:41:36] And there'll be a link to it in the show notes.
[00:41:38] And I happen to know that there's a particularly awesome episode that one of my co-hosts appeared on.
[00:41:45] Lauren, do you know who that is?
[00:41:46] I don't know.
[00:41:47] Maybe.
[00:41:48] Was it me?
[00:41:49] Yeah.
[00:41:49] Thanks, Nat.
[00:41:50] She's family.
[00:41:52] I love that.
[00:41:53] We talked a lot about data, product discoverability.
[00:41:57] And we're doing research on it.
[00:41:59] So it's some great conversation.
[00:42:00] Yeah.
[00:42:01] Look out for some product discoverability insights.
[00:42:03] Get ready.
[00:42:04] More from the DSI and Salesforce, which is super exciting.
[00:42:07] So again, Nat, thank you so much for joining us.
[00:42:10] We're really grateful for you bringing your insights to us.
[00:42:14] Thank you so much for having me.
[00:42:16] Thanks again to Nat for all the ideas.
[00:42:18] Your near future should be sending your digital twin to digitalshelfinstitute.org to become a member.
[00:42:24] Your future self will thank you.
[00:42:26] Thanks for being part of our community.