[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where industry leaders share insights, strategies, and stories to help brands win in the ever-changing world of commerce. Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute.
[00:00:25] VP of Marketing and Commerce Sha Atakhanov has been driving growth and innovation at homeopathic brand Boiron for almost 17 years. From booking some of the first ads on Amazon, to being an inaugural brand running shoppable ads on Samsung TVs, Sha oversees all the channels and media that touch the consumer. And he approaches new opportunities in tech, especially AI, with a simple rule. It has to generate revenue, save time, and save money.
[00:00:55] And have some fun while you're at it. Sha, welcome to the podcast. We are so delighted to have you on. Thank you so much. Thank you, Peter. Thank you, Lauren. Thanks for having me. You know, Boiron sits in a really interesting category of homeopathic medicines, which is like, I would think, the over-the-counter category, but also has some complexity because it requires education and really people need to understand what they're buying, why they're buying, for what context, I would imagine.
[00:01:24] And so your marketing role owns e-commerce, and you've been on quite a journey at the company to build out that team. So I know our listeners will love to hear about that journey, but just tell us sort of where it all began and how you entered into this category. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I grew up myself and my parents were all into natural products and natural ways to feel better.
[00:01:53] So I grew up with that lifestyle. And when I joined the company about 16 years ago, it was a perfect match for me because I used some of the products, grew up using some of the products. And I love that everything is made from natural ingredients and natural substances. So Boiron is based out of France. It's a French company. It's been around for 90 plus years in France.
[00:02:22] And in the US, it's been around for 40 plus years. So and we have deep roots in the natural world. We started from the natural channel and natural world with the whole foods and sprouts of the world. And then we got into mass market and to e-commerce and omni channel now. So now we're present in most of the retailers in the US where we can sell over the counter OTC medicines.
[00:02:50] So as you mentioned, homeopathic medicines is considered OTC in the US. And a lot of our products available at Walmart, Amazon, Target, Sprouts, you name it. So and I'm responsible majority of for e-commerce channel, but also on the marketing side, I'm responsible for growing all of the channels from marketing perspective.
[00:03:17] So so it's been a great journey. And, you know, we've grown tremendously in the past 15 years. We didn't have an e-commerce channel. We didn't have a DTC channel. So all of those things I helped to start at the company. And we have a great leadership team here who believes in digital and e-commerce. So that really made the journey very interesting and very supportive.
[00:03:46] So in helping us launch a lot of those initiatives. Yeah, you were e-commerce relatively early ish. Like when I look back, I was, you know, you know, certainly over a decade ago. Yeah. And and I was I was interested. You just mentioned it as you were closing out on the transition from VP of e-commerce and digital to VP of marketing and e-commerce. Like, can you tell me a little bit more about that expansion?
[00:04:13] Like what were the business needs that kind of said this is a time where we want to put these things together? Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So we so I've been built building out the digital team for the past 10, 15 years and the e-commerce team and the channels as the opportunities keep growing. You know, marketing is becoming more of arts and science. You know, you have the performance marketing, the retail media.
[00:04:39] So everything is kind of merging and converging into omni channel, omni commerce media, you could say. So so more and more, my role has kind of pivoted from doing just digital into more retail media, retail supporting retailers and retail media itself is kind of blending in between sales, marketing, shopper marketing, you name it.
[00:05:06] I mean, and it's really kind of have taken over a lot of our operations. So you almost have no walls because everything is kind of become omnipresent or omni channel in terms of strategy. And I know a lot of companies still struggling with that.
[00:05:28] There are silos and people always, you know, bucket things in different places and the budgets, you don't know, you know, where the retail media budget is coming from. But here at Boron, we decided to kind of to break down those silos and really look at things more holistically. So we created a position for retail media team. We created a position to support sales and marketing together.
[00:05:54] So that's why my role has also shifted from digital to marketing so that to give me a full visibility, 360 view and all different aspects of marketing and help support the company. So I transitioned last summer, last September actually to this role, but I've been doing a lot of support and marketing for omni channel retailers at our company.
[00:06:22] So, so the role has shifted a little bit, but it became even more, I think, giving you full view, full picture of our campaigns. And as, as the marketing people say, full, full funnel marketing is kind of where we're at now. And, and, and that is kind of the ultimate way to do marketing.
[00:06:50] You can see from, from all the way from top funnel to lower funnel and then measuring everything and accounting for everything. So. Do you find that it's been easier to get work done to understand the consumer journey with the shift of having like kind of the full view of everything? Cause you're naturally kind of breaking down some of those silos, right. And kind of bringing those teams together. Do you find that it's been easier? Yes.
[00:07:18] It's actually been challenging because, you know, we're all our creatures of habit and we're used to doing certain things, certain way. And this is my lane. This is your lane. You stay there. I stay here. But when you're doing retail media and omni channel marketing, you have to, you have to work together and you have to collaborate with different departments. And different positions, different roles cross-functionally.
[00:07:44] And you have to be able to be flexible and be open because at the end of the day, people are like, well, who's going to get credit for this? You know, you know, is this marketing? Is this digital? Is this retail media? Whatever. And then we're going to look at as a company, you know, are we growing the brand? You know, is the brand growing? Is the, is the company growing?
[00:08:04] And that's how we have to look at it now, because if we continue to look at this the old way with just different channels and the channel view, I think we're going to limit ourselves. And we really kind of limit the opportunities. For example, when we did a campaign on CTV on Amazon, one thing we saw was that the biggest impact was not just on Amazon. It actually was offline.
[00:08:29] So like looking at that holistically and saying, wow, this is not just helping Amazon. This is going to help all our channels, all our retailers on brick and mortar. And having that perspective changes the way you invest. Then you say, OK, let's do more of this because it's helping lift all the boats and and then do marketing and spend more efficiently.
[00:08:56] So instead of just looking at from a specific channel view. So so that's it's been a challenge. But I think the team has been very good. We have a great team in house and everything we do in house. In terms of execution. So except for our DSP campaigns, we work with our amazing partner, XNurta. But on everything else, we do everything in house.
[00:09:22] So and that also is an advantage, I think, because we keep learning ourselves and we train ourselves and we continue to expand our internal knowledge of all these platforms. And you've gone from I believe it was like you alone doing e-commerce right to now. How many how many people do you have focused on? So, yeah. Yeah. It was an army of one years ago.
[00:09:49] And, you know, I asked our CEO, I said, hey, can can I do this e-commerce thing? And he's like, OK, sure, do it. And he so he let me run with it. And I mean, we're just, you know, it was just me and just trying to figure out the catalog on Amazon. We're doing some advertising on Amazon, but it was all like PDF or paper based. So the reports were emailed and PDF back and forth.
[00:10:17] You had no dashboard, nothing to look at. So my partner on the other end on Amazon would send a PDF back. Oh, look at this ROAS. Look at this halo. This is like, what are you looking at? You know, what is what are these numbers? So it was called AMG back then. Amazon Media Group, I think. Yeah. And it was fun.
[00:10:37] I mean, we that's one thing that I think we're proud of is we're always early testers and believers in different platforms and campaigns. So we're always testing different beta forms, alpha forms. So AMG was that beta was the cutting edge, most cutting edge thing at Amazon back then. They were doing some DSP. We were doing some DSP ads. And the halo ROAS look great.
[00:11:04] So I don't know what to tell you, but we continue to invest and we've grown. I mean, 70 X since, you know, 15 years ago. So we've really grown the business. We're the fifth largest OTC brand now on Amazon and Amazon is a great partner. But we've also grown all these other brands, you know, Walmart, Dotcom, Target, you name it. Iyer, we're everywhere. And we've done very well. So as a company.
[00:11:33] Was there a level of education that needed to be involved in that journey? Right. Because you asked if you could do this E-com thing. Right. And like everybody else is probably like, what are you doing? What is this E-com thing? Like, so how have you really kind of built it as a strong pillar in the organization? I'm sure that was not easy at all times. Yeah. And that's a very good question. First of all, I'm still in a learning mode.
[00:11:59] You have to stay in this like student learning mode because e-commerce is changing. As you know, every day something new comes up and now with AI and everything. So I feel like I'm constantly behind. So I'm always learning. I'm always like listening to podcasts, watching videos and always learning. And I'm trying to instill that to also to my team. And I think they're good like that, too. They're always learning on their own. You know, we listen to the first mover webinars.
[00:12:28] We go to we went to a lot of Amazon hackathons. They used to be called. We used to go to what we still go to a lot of events throughout the year. We ship off the team somewhere to really, again, listen to learn. And the biggest thing I think a lot of times the teams stay in their own bubble and they never get to hear what's going on outside.
[00:12:50] And I think that's been a good lesson for us to really listen to people like Lauren when she speaks, you know, when I go to some of the conferences or your podcasts and things like that. So we're all constantly learning. And I think that learning mode really helped our team to stay on the cutting edge and but also making sure to transfer knowledge, too, because, like I said, army of one or now I have, I think, eight or nine full time people in the US.
[00:13:20] I have two, three people in Canada that work with me. So in the e-commerce. So, you know, we always need to make sure we train each other, we learn from each other and then transfer that knowledge and expertise, because that's when you can really multiply the team. And and really it takes off, I think so. So, boy, that that sort of team philosophy is going to serve you super well in the next era. You know, I mean, there's a lot coming.
[00:13:50] And and also, in addition to that, your your attitude towards early adoption is also going to really serve you because I think, you know, you saw it certainly on Amazon. The spoils are in the beginning. Yes. Like the real. Oh, they're just diamonds lying around. Clicks were like 20 cents or something. You know, it was the early West Wild West. So, yeah. So that's that's an amazing mindset. I wanted to come back to something you said earlier when we were talking about the retail media thing.
[00:14:19] And I think part of it, you know, you talked about sort of who gets credit, where the dollars come from. I mean, I immediately thought in my head, well, I think the consumer gets the credit because it's their journey that is feeding this necessity because they're going to go shop wherever the heck they want to shop. Right. And you have to show up and inspire them and attract them and convert them.
[00:14:42] And so I was wondering when it does when it does come to thinking about sort of budget allocation and also your ability to be able to respond to the signals that you were talking about. Like, how have you been working with like with your finance partners and things like that to be able to kind of execute against that more? We need to be nimble and agile to grab our share. Is does that has that conversation come up?
[00:15:09] Yeah, that's a very good point. And I think we always want to make sure that we're profitable and efficient. So we look at the profitability of each product. And based on that, you know, how much we want to spend or how much really margin do we have to push against our product? So so we have to be very conscious of that. And I try to train the team to look at that on our product portfolio, because not every product has the same margin.
[00:15:39] So you have to look at that carefully. And then not every retailer has the same margin as you. So different retailers, for example, Walmart versus Amazon, your costs might be different. You know, of course, as you know, Amazon has all its fees and co-ops or whatever. Walmart has its own fees. Well, they want the lowest price, EDP. But, you know, that's also a give and take. You have the slotting fees with the drug chains and all of that. That could get really expensive.
[00:16:08] So we have to be very balanced and make sure that we're making money. So at the end of the day, you know, some companies really grow fast, you know, volume wise. I've seen some three piece that we're doing 400 million a year and then they go bust the next year, which totally like shocked me. And they were about to IPO and things like that. And it didn't happen. So so to me, it's very dangerous to grow without balance.
[00:16:37] And I think growing with balance is super important to us. Yeah, we're growing double digits, but making sure we're growing steadily instead of, you know, with a solid base. So that's important. And then you talk about finances. We're very careful also how we spend and allocate budget and with chargebacks and fees and late fees, all of that. We watch those very closely and the team.
[00:17:03] So as the saying goes, it takes a village to grow Amazon or any e-commerce business. So so you have to partner with your with your finance team, with your logistics team. And because they're going to help you really to dig into those chargebacks and fees and logistics and all those and solve those issues. So we've our team has worked very well with all those departments and they have weekly or biweekly meetings. So to look at everything from all the angles.
[00:17:33] So I don't know if I answered your question, Peter, but so that's kind of how we look at. Yeah. On the operation side. Yeah. So I'm curious from a metric standpoint, how there's so many things you can measure, especially because you own retail media and you own the digital shelf side of things.
[00:17:52] So are there like North Star KPIs that you focus on or do you have like a handful that are like, hey, if we win this, like we are good to go, especially when you think about you mentioned ROAS several times. And I know there's a lot of them. Yeah. About ROAS. So I'm just curious. Is there like a clear focus for you around metrics or is it a framework? No, it's a very that's a good question. I think digital shelf is super important to us.
[00:18:19] So one of the first hires we had to expand into and developing Omnichannel was a digital shelf person. So her name is Dignis. We hired her to really just focus on digital shelf to really develop that so that we have consistent digital shelf everywhere. All the retailers from Amazon to Walmart and Target, et cetera.
[00:18:39] So so the biggest KPI for us to to really is looking at who we have the best, best in line of PDP. So look at all the images. You know, we do an audit regularly every six months looking at all our product pages. We have close to 2000 SKUs, so it's not easy. It takes a lot of time, but we still do it to check on all the things, making sure we have good reviews.
[00:19:08] All the imagery, assets, videos, bullet points, all of that. So those are kind of I don't know how to maybe digital shelf score. So we look at that kind of and then we also look at at the end of the day, we look at the conversion rates, too. So we look at why one product is converting at 30 percent while the other one is converting at 10 percent. So we look at the spend. We look at the pricing. We analyze and see where the problems are. And usually it's almost like an X-ray.
[00:19:38] You know, you do an X-ray of the product X versus Y and then you look at it and then you immediately find what the issue is. And so that for me, it's fun and working with the team. We also using some A.I. tools like visit. So I've spoken about a couple of times. Visit is a fantastic A.I. tool. So we use that to optimize all our creative assets and images. So that also gives us a score like a conversion score.
[00:20:06] So based on that, we also evaluate how good of an image is it for converting on Amazon or Walmart, et cetera. So so we're using a bunch of different tools like that to to do the KPI analysis. There are so many things that go into what effective content actually looks like. So that makes a ton of sense. And there's also many channels that you focus on. One of them still being TV.
[00:20:34] I know that's like a controversial topic, but on the brand side, it's still super important. And you recently just did a pilot on shoppable TV. So can you talk a little bit about that? Yes. Just in terms of like how you think about new channels or new things to experiment with. Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. And just came out. We just partnered with Samsung TV. They have about 80 million TVs in the US. They're one of the largest TV sellers in the US.
[00:21:03] They reach about 100 million households. So it made sense for us to do a partnership. They came up with something innovative where you can use their TVs to shop on Amazon with their remotes. So before, you know, you had to be get to use Alexa or you have to use Fire TV to do the shopping. But now Samsung has introduced this really cool feature. So, you know, you can sit on your couch, Lauren, and order Arnicare right from there, I'll grab your TV.
[00:21:33] And I have a Samsung TV. So I was about to write in my phone to go try this. So do I. I have a frame TV. Yeah. Okay. There you go. Give this a try. Yeah, you should try that. So they're experimenting with something neat like that. And you advertise, you know, as a brand awareness, but also you can test out, you know, the conversion and attribution of sales from that. So they've partnered with Amazon.
[00:22:01] And it's very, very innovative that you're able to do that using a third part TV like Samsung on Amazon. So if you don't have a prime membership, I think you can send it to your phone, things like that, too. So it's really they're trying to make the whole product discovery and shopping very easy. So so they just published some articles about that. And Samsung is doing a big reveal about that.
[00:22:29] So because, you know, obviously, they're one of the largest TV producers and sellers in the US. And also, they're one of the largest advertising networks, too. So everybody's advertising network. Yeah. So so naturally, Samsung was a good partner for us. And we're going to see how our alpha test goes at the end of August. So well, I think, you know, Lauren was talking earlier just about.
[00:23:00] Probably saying it was an eye roll is too much, but just about sort of TV's gotten a bad rap, but because it's it's it. You can't trace, you know, the sort of big TV campaigns which have their place still like it's not like I'm counting them out. But when you're looking for something that's actually connecting with the consumer in their moment of need and can get them to take an action. This sounds this sounds like it will be super trackable. Like, yeah, you will know whether this is working or not. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:23:28] They seem to be able to connect that on the back end with your Amazon account and they can track all of those, all of the campaigns. So we're we were already advertising with something TV through Amazon Prime TV. So so they're already partners anyway. So to us, it made sense. You know, they're one of the largest networks. And you as you see, the CTV field is getting really heated.
[00:23:55] I mean, everybody's shifting lots of money from linear TV to CTV, because like Peter saying, you can now track everything from A to Z. You saw Roku just was bought at twenty two billion dollars. Yeah. So I mean, that's nothing to sneeze at. And and Roku is is a pretty big network, too. So so that you know, that tells you everything.
[00:24:20] So, yeah, a lot of the brands are testing CTV and they're finding it very impactful, both from brand awareness perspective, but also in the lower funnel conversion. Actually, we're seeing some amazing results with Amazon and other CTV partners, even in the lower funnel and conversion. So which is very surprising. So.
[00:24:42] And you were talking earlier about the work and the research and just the amount of essentially manual brain labor that you and your team put into keeping this process running. Yeah. And. The so I wanted to close out with kind of that big conversation of as the agentic shelf gets added and your machine becomes a new customer and all of that stuff that we've all been talking about.
[00:25:12] Yeah, there's I do you feel like we're reaching a tipping point where. Given the way that that shelf works and also just the scale of things, I mean, listening how many excuse you have like it, it can't work manually anymore, you're missing out on opportunities. And so I'm wondering, yeah, you're if how are you thinking about this next period?
[00:25:34] You know, do you have a sense of how you will be able to work at the machine speed necessary and to be able to do all of this? You do you feel like you folks are building out that strategy to be able to. Yeah, that's a such a timely question, Peter, because this is in the minds of everybody right now trying to solve for this. And to be honest, I think for me, it's we have to combine the AI, artificial intelligence with human intelligence.
[00:26:03] I think the that human intelligence still needs to drive the strategy because otherwise, I will not know what to do. You have to give them even the best I tools. You have to have a strategy behind it. You know, so I'll give you an example. So we have our we manage all our Amazon ads, for example, AMS ads using this I platform with XNORPA and we have over 50,000 keywords and we can not humanly.
[00:26:32] I have two full time Amazon people. They cannot fully manage 24 seven, even if they didn't sleep to manage and optimize those 50,000 keywords. It's just humanly impossible. So we need to use AI tools. So and we are using an AI tool to optimize those keywords and constantly watch every single keyword 24 seven. And that's what AI is good at the machine learning or the whatever you want to call it.
[00:26:58] So we're exploiting that and taking advantage of those tools or anything that you need to scale where you have 2000 skews or 50,000 skews. You need to use AI and these type of tools to manage your campaigns or catalog for digital shelf. Same thing. You need to use a tool to manage it because otherwise it just becomes too unwieldy.
[00:27:19] But also from efficiency standpoint and being impactful, you know, the AI will, you know, every day it makes recommendations. It has 300 recommendations for us on our dashboard. This this this keyword didn't convert. And, you know, after 10 clicks and you wasted this much dollars, you know, it's not converting. So I'm going to shut it up. Shut this off. OK, go ahead and do it.
[00:27:44] So you can create those type of automations and AI rules and it gives a strategy for the AI to manage your campaigns or manage your retail media or whatever you're using the tools they're using. So so for us, I think with agentic AI, we still need to be using human intelligence even more critically, especially setting the strategy and the focus. You know, what is the focus and what are we trying to do with AI?
[00:28:14] So I could really distract you also from the actual work for us. We look at three things. So it needs to generate sales or revenue. The AI tool needs to save time and it's to save money. So if it does those three things, we will definitely use that tool for that purpose. Otherwise, it could be a distraction like you have so many different AI tools out there to do a million different things.
[00:28:43] So we have to, you know, consistently stay focused as a business leaders. You have to, you know, look at, you know, the AI. It's going to become super expensive, you know, adding all these AI tools and then all the, you know, premiums that you're going to pay. Plans you're going to pay. So you have to make sure that it's actually serving your business.
[00:29:09] So, so for me, with even with agentic AI, it's super important to make sure you have the best digital shelf. You have a good AI strategy and making sure it's, you know, really generating sales and supporting your business. And Shah, I had the opportunity to see you speak on a panel a couple of weeks ago. I don't even know. It feels like it was yesterday. Yes. And you were talking about some of the tools that you use on Google as well. Yes. Because you also own social media.
[00:29:38] So I was, I was listening to you kind of talk about your social, social media strategy, but I loved that you were highlighting some of the tools that are available through Google to look at your search terms as well as trends in your category. So do you mind sharing that? Because I thought that was super insightful to pull from also like some different categories. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Google just rolled out so many AI announcements in the last two or three weeks.
[00:30:03] If you were at the Google marketing live, one of the biggest ones is so the, the, the Google AI mode is going to become a default, I think within a few months. So that's a huge implication for SEO and all the people doing SEO or SEM on Google. And they're also providing some really amazing tools for free. So in Google search console, so use the Google search console, you can see your, you know, Google AI visibility and your visibility rank.
[00:30:32] So in, in line with the SEO keyword, you'll see that. So that's available now. Google merchant center also has a bunch of tools now for AI and AI, AI generated ads. So you can write within there, you can create different AI ads, AI based ads and launch them in Google shopping.
[00:30:55] So with Google's UCP and, and, you know, their version of, you know, connecting the AI to, to, to e-commerce. I think it's a huge win for the brands and for the retailers. I know some of the bigger research like Walmart and Target, some of them are signing on to that. So I think it's going to be huge.
[00:31:19] And, and as you know, Google is massive and they have so many data points and, you know, 8 billion searches a day. So, and they have so much information about us and what being searched and AI mode. We're noticing now that, you know, some of our organic traffic is dropping because the AI mode is answering the questions right there on Google. So, and that's okay. I mean, it's pulling it from our website or it's pulling it from our digital shelf from Amazon or Target or Walmart.
[00:31:49] We're happy about that. So, like I said, it goes back to the digital shelf. You need to have the best presence because all of them are start to pull it into their AI LLM platforms. And you're going to win because at the end the consumer wins, they get to discover your product. And I think that's the ultimate goal.
[00:32:07] So, and that's where I think your position and the way you've all designed it opens up the door to, to making those choices and to feeling that confidence, because it's absolutely true that while your direct traffic may go down, or even to the PDFs, the engagement of the shopper. And we've seen some really strong conversion numbers for those journeys as well.
[00:32:30] And so your sort of central role, I think really helps make you all process that together. Yeah. And so that it's not siloed and somebody's over here going like, well, what are you doing? I just, I just love the way you're thinking about it.
[00:32:47] It's really, it's very refreshing because, you know, we're trying to, you know, make sure everybody comes along with the journey because, you know, you have the PR team, you have the marketing, you have the product management. So we want to make sure that everybody is part of that journey and have that visibility. And also that mindset, because at the end, we need to, like you said in early in the podcast, you have to keep the consumer in the front.
[00:33:16] And, you know, if we keep that mindset and if the consumer wins, we all win. So that's, I think that's the key for us. Yeah. And I'd love to close out actually with the people part of it, because, you know, we hear various stories about some places where there are people that are really worried about their job going away. Yes. Or something like that. And we've always, which is totally understandable to have that concern.
[00:33:44] But we often talk with folks about it becoming a promotion. You were talking about earlier, the fact that your people are going to stay focused on the strategy. Yeah. And that strategy over time should get closer and closer to being a growth strategy rather than a process management strategy. Yes. And I was wondering if your people, because of the way that you all work together on this, are feeling that?
[00:34:10] Like when they see that tool, take care of the ads for them, and then they can focus on something more value added. Are you seeing that? Does that take a little bit of the pressure off of that fear, do you find? Yeah. It does. It does. Because, you know, one thing we want to make sure is that the tool is not the solution. It's the people and the tool together because at the end of the day, they need to drive that car.
[00:34:36] You know, we're giving you this really nice sports car as an example, let's say. But you still need to drive it because, you know, otherwise it's going to go nowhere. So we have to train them, make them feel comfortable. In the beginning, always there's a hesitation like, oh, you know, I'm doing this this way or that way. But this tool will save you so much time. You have to show them and educate them why the tool is going to serve them or the AI or the solution.
[00:35:04] So and once you show them, then they love that. Same thing with our, for example, our visual scoring tool that I was telling you about. Our graphics team was taken aback a little bit in the beginning. They were like surprised what we're doing. And we're kind of, we are kind of scoring their work. And so people don't like that, you know, when I say, oh, I don't like this. It's not. So we have to explain to them, it's not about, you know, what you've designed, whether it's good or bad.
[00:35:33] It's just, it's about the consumer. Is it converting the consumer? If it's not, I don't, you know, I know it's beautiful what you've designed, but it's not converting. So, so we have to shift that. So once they, once it clicks, then they're like, okay, so we need to design so that it converts. And then they focus on that and just small tweak like that. It helps them because otherwise it becomes, I like this. I don't like this.
[00:36:01] It becomes, you know, like a personal preference. It's not about that. And I told them, it's not about what I like. I, you know, I'm not a graphic. I'm not an artist, but I can help maybe with conversion. And I can tell you why this one converts better than this one using this tool. And it's going to help you. And we can do it at scale, you know, all, you know, with 2000 skews, we can do it very, very quickly. And, and it worked. And once I showed them the dollars and the cents, it really blew their mind.
[00:36:30] So that, that, and it speaks to them after that. So that's great. Context is needed for humans and agents in order to understand the bigger picture. Well, but that's exactly that. That's right. That's right. Well, Shaw, thank you so much for spending this time with us and sharing your really amazing career journey. And, and then the kind of leader that you are. It's, it's, it's really inspiring for us to hear. And, and I'm sure for our audience.
[00:36:59] So thanks for taking the time and sharing with us. It was my pleasure. It was great to see you both. And thank you for giving me this opportunity. Thank you so much, Shaw. Thanks again to Shaw for his leadership lessons today. Many great leaders are featured at digital shelf institute.org. You should check them out and become a member while you're there. Thanks for being part of our community. Thank you. Thank you.