[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where industry leaders share insights, strategies, and stories to help brands win in the ever-changing world of commerce.
[00:00:21] Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. Elise Barry has observed the shoppers growing control over their journey firsthand, moving from her early days managing spreadsheets on the agency side of e-commerce, to her current role leading digital capabilities at Royal Canin. This evolution has placed urgent pressure on brands and retailers to transform the people, processes, and technology needed to support shopping journeys that can range from a single touchpoint to 17.
[00:00:51] Elise shares her perspective on the transformations necessary to prepare current and future generation of commerce organizations to thrive in this dynamic environment. Elise, welcome to the podcast. We are so excited to dive in with you. Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. It is a wild time to be in commerce. I don't know if you know that. Well, you do because you're in the front row seat to a lot of what's happening.
[00:01:20] You've been in e-commerce since 2014. Tons of experience in new product innovation. You're doing TikTok shop. And Royal Canin, go way back with Royal Canin. We had an executive from Royal Canin on the podcast in 2020, which is amazing. And you folks, and really all of Mars I find is incredibly creative.
[00:01:44] And for, you know, whatever, a hundred and whatever year company that it is, excuse my researchers didn't get me my info. That being me. I was like, that's not me. No, no, just so you know. It's my, my AI. But you, you folks do a lot of creative work on many different channels, always changing things up, which is so impressive.
[00:02:08] So, you know, I'd love you for you to tell us a little bit about your role and, and where you sit in the organization and how you got there. Yeah. So I've been working in e-commerce and digital commerce since 2014. And one of the things that's been really interesting about my career is I've seen the industry evolve through several different phases.
[00:02:31] And so I started on the agency side, mostly working with retailers and helping them scale product detail page content. This was kind of a time where you saw a lot of retailers actually doing investing in their customer data a lot more than you see today. So we were managing attributes, cleaning and standardizing data, things like that. And a lot of that work was very operational.
[00:02:58] I spent a lot of time in Excel working with really large amounts of data and really trying to make that information more consistent and more usable. And at that time, some of that work could probably be viewed as unglamorous, you know, but I really think looking back, it was incredibly foundational.
[00:03:19] I mean, I learned a lot about how the data is structured, what information really matters, and, and how retailers really organize that content. And really small changes could really affect the customer experience. And then I moved to the agency side in 2014. And then I moved to the agency side in 2014, where I'm at now, and really my work spans many different areas.
[00:03:44] But it's, it's broader focus is on ecommerce growth and transformation. So things like digital shelf health, content quality, share of voice. And now, you know, a lot of that is really, you know, centered around AI. But one thing that really struck me is the, the fundamental question of how much these tools have changed.
[00:04:11] You know, we're, we're trying to help shoppers find the right product and make a confident decision. So that really hasn't changed. But, but what we're seeing is really this, the tools are changing incredibly quickly. And now you've got things like social commerce, TikTok shop, AI generated content. And so, it's been a really exciting time to be in this space. Just, you know, the definition of ecommerce just continues to, to really expand for brands.
[00:04:39] Yeah, the shopper just kind of keeps getting more and more control over it. And brands really just need to make sure they are serving them wherever and however they want to execute through the journey from a squished one conversation, you know, on an agent to the omni channel journey. And that's a great way to, which is continually expanding. And you went from the agency side to the brand side and now you're on the brand side.
[00:05:06] But I feel like, do you think that the change happening right now, like how would you gauge that to like 2014 days when like people were learning that ecommerce was important versus like now everything that's changing with AI and ecommerce? Do you think it's easier to get things done now because people understand the importance of it? Or do you think it's the same? I'm curious being in the space for so long.
[00:05:32] You know, I think probably one of the biggest challenges is, is like how we're educating new people coming into these roles. And especially with a lot of the things that we're doing today, you know, AI can do things a lot faster.
[00:05:50] So like the way ecommerce teams are evolving or really kind of, you've got to really think about how you're onboarding people and, and how you're getting them from entry level to being an expert. So I find that piece of it really interesting, like the education and the change management piece for sure. Yeah. And that I, when we first connected, that was like the number one thing that we talked about a lot, right? There's so much education and it's not just a set it and forget it type of thing.
[00:06:18] And there's so much change management because this is such a big shift in everything across every function and everything that we're doing. So I'm curious being in the industry for so long and, and knowing that you've had different teams to educate and you've brought leadership on board. What's, what's changing and how you're thinking about education and change management?
[00:06:39] You know, I think early in my career, you know, a lot of the work revolved around cleaning up the product data, managing content, and like all those things needed to happen before you could really scale content. And so today, AI is taking on a lot of those tasks. And so I actually think the foundational knowledge is probably going to be more valuable because there's going to be less people who really have kind of had to write 200 product descriptions in a week, you know, or something like that.
[00:07:08] So I think what is fundamental is understanding the data, understanding the business problem, and what good content looks like because AI can only can produce something really quickly. But if you don't know whether or not what it produced is actually good, then you're just producing something that may or may not perform. So like understanding that business problem is really important too.
[00:07:34] So I think a big part of the education and change management is helping people move from asking, how do I use this tool to what problem am I trying to solve? What information does the system need? And what do good results look like? And I think that's a different type of education. And I also think sometimes we underestimate the value of that operational work because it was, you know, a really big foundation for probably a lot of us in the industry today.
[00:08:05] And now we're introducing AI, which, you know, that foundation is just going to be incredibly important for it. So, you know, I think really it's about kind of how we can take these tools and put them in the hands of somebody who's entry level and helping them to really understand kind of what to look for, how to troubleshoot things.
[00:08:30] And, you know, really be able to like take a process and then scale it out. Well, it's such an interesting, you know, conversation to have about how the next generation will learn and understands the background of how all these things tie together because it goes by at the speed of a machine.
[00:08:55] And so being able to stop and that person be able to do the final quality analysis without the benefit of the education that you've had by a 10 year career. How do you embody that? How do you embed that? Like, have you folks, you know, grappled with that at all?
[00:09:18] How that sort of how that institutional knowledge gets passed along so that they can be useful in the evaluation stage before things go out to the public? Yeah, I mean, I think what the next generation of e-commerce professionals like what they really may need is, you know, they're not going to be creating this content themselves. They're going to be modeling the tools and, you know, building out kind of the structure for things.
[00:09:48] So I think a combination of technical fluency, business understanding, critical thinking, and that ability to work with AI are going to be things to look to educate your existing team on and then look for those types of skills when you're hiring new people, you know, into your teams.
[00:10:10] You know, there was a recently a Brown University professor wrote an article about he compared he he had had an exam and the students had taken it at home and they aced it. And he was like, I've forgotten what the I don't have the details right for me, but it's like really high grades across the board. And he was like, wait a minute.
[00:10:39] So then he made the next exam an in person, you know, like essay exam. And the grades dropped precipitously. Like there was one student who had the same grade, like an A plus, and the rest just dropped from sort of the A minus B plus all the way down to failing. And just, he wrote the article to just demonstrate we have not figured out how to actually know if students know the fundamentals.
[00:11:09] And, and I think that's still going to be a learning experience for managers and leadership and the industry really or the world, actually, if you think about it. Yeah. And what's interesting is maybe the one person who did really well in person, maybe wouldn't do as well in a role where like you really need to be using AI.
[00:11:36] And maybe the, you know, not everybody who's, you know, maybe cheating a bit to use AI, but like those people who really used it, used it in the right way. You know, those are, maybe today might be seen as like, hey, they kind of took a shortcut, but probably some of them are going to be like the innovators for. Well, this particular person actually A plus to both versions. So I think they're just super smart. Overachiever. Yeah, exactly.
[00:12:04] I mean, I hate them immediately, but I'd hire them in a minute. So, yeah. But that's also why I'm seeing a lot of companies and just industries are thinking about like apprenticeships, because maybe you don't need to know to your point, at least how to write or create all of the content that like, we all cut our teeth on to kind of get where we are. But you still need to know how to make decisions, how to think critically, how to connect the dots. And you can't teach that with an AI.
[00:12:33] You can't always teach that with a classroom either. But like, how are you allowing the young junior folks to like be able to be general managers one day if they have all the AI tools? I think that's a question that needs to be asked and talked about. And apprenticeships are a way to be able to get there. And I've seen that pop up a lot more so that they can kind of get that critical thinking and hands-on experience. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:59] And I think the way that somebody can kind of take the tools that right now we have today, which is like, we can use AI to help us, you know, create titles or create a new attribute field. But when you take a step back after that project's done and you go, okay, what could I have done? And sometimes you can even ask the tool this, but like, what information would you have needed to do this faster?
[00:13:28] Because then you can go back to your team and go, okay, we need to create this new field in our PIM because we're going to need it every time we redo titles or something like that. So it's like taking the step back and saying, because AI will do one thing. It's going to show you where you have gaps in your data and where data is kind of messy. And I think people have a tendency to think that AI is a solution to messy data. Like it can go through all of it. It can read all of it.
[00:13:55] It can, but if you give it some structure, it can do things faster. It can do things more, you know, accurately. And I think those are going to be the types of people who really help brands to kind of innovate and, you know, kind of move beyond where we're at today. We're all just kind of trying to, you know, better understand these tools and what they're good at. And also kind of what are some things that we need a human to really be, you know, involved in.
[00:14:25] Yeah, I'd love to dig in to sort of the next level of detail on how you've seen AI be introduced into the organization. And, you know, when I think, you know, at the top level, I think, well, we want to be able to use AI to drive both top line growth, hopefully make performance better because we have better content. It's in more places. It covers more of the product catalog, et cetera.
[00:14:51] And then bottom line growth, which is it's all being done more efficiently without additional headcount and at greater scale. And I'm wondering, you know, how do you break it down in your head of sort of where you folks are putting your bets and kind of how that's going over inside the organization? You know, I think generally people are really receptive to AI when they can see that it solves a real problem for them.
[00:15:18] And I think, you know, one of the things that I've been learning is that AI is really good at getting you that result quickly. But that piece of like your data is going to limit you to having better results. And so for us, it's about kind of what are the right places to slot a tool like this into our processes?
[00:15:43] And even just kind of like having some conversations about where do we not want it and like where do we really want to make sure that this is a place where we're leveraging an agency to continue to support here or another tool or an internal team. But like looking at the overall workflow and seeing where are spots where we know this is probably not going to make sense for us today. Maybe we'll revisit in the future.
[00:16:12] And then like where's a good spot for us to where it does make sense and then starting to test. And Amazon gave a lot of us a way to test this recently with the new title structure and the item highlight and giving us all this really short window to to get that work done. So I imagine there's a lot of brands out there that are leveraging AI to just help with that process to hit those deadlines.
[00:16:40] And then hopefully you then kind of take away what are some some good learnings from this. But what could we have done so that we can scale this differently in the future? Because I imagine we're going to see a lot more changes from retailers because, yeah, just like just like, you know, when I started working in e-commerce, these retailers were investing in content, which you don't really see today. These retailers are investing in ways to clean up their own data just based on.
[00:17:07] And a lot of it comes down to how they've asked to receive it from us. You know, are there fields that aren't don't have a dropdown? And so everyone's kind of just put in whatever they want. Title is a great example of that. Like you see some titles that are just so long and hey, they've used their character account. They've done what, you know, Amazon allowed them to do, but they want to get more consistent because then, you know, Alexa for shopping does a better job.
[00:17:36] And their tools do a better job at helping customers find what they need. So I think back to your question, I think it's all about where you can find the right opportunities and then start to test and assess where the comfort level is within your teams, within your business to try and find the right fits. Speaking of your teams, like how are you thinking about navigating this with your team and with your direct team, your broader team, your cross-functional team?
[00:18:05] I mean, workforce is changing. We talked a bit about this before. Like, do you have any specific examples about how you're helping the people on your team embrace this, how you're thinking about it from a strategy perspective, how you're even building your own skills or kind of staying on top of stuff? Like, how are you thinking about this overall change from like a workforce perspective? So this is something that I think about a lot because I've seen the e-commerce workforce evolve throughout my career.
[00:18:35] And I have a personal interest in workforce development from outside of my job. So I serve on the board at MERS Goodwill. I speak to students at UMSL about entering the workforce. So I think about this as someone working in e-commerce and someone who cares about how people develop the skills to enter the workforce. Because when I started, there was a lot of opportunities to learn by doing.
[00:19:03] And now, you know, a lot of those tasks could be repetitive, you know, but, you know, also very, you know, much that fits within like an apprenticeship type role. And with AI increasing and able to automate and accelerate some of that work, I think it creates a really interesting question. If some of the work that was traditionally served as the entry point into e-commerce is that's getting automated.
[00:19:30] You know, how do those people foundationally get that experience? And so, you know, like what we were talking about before is, you know, that generation really needs to now kind of, you know, learn through a combination of things. And maybe it comes from, you know, what they're doing in college and what they're studying. Maybe it's kind of a different role that you would tend to be looking for when you're looking at applications.
[00:19:59] And I also think people who understand the underlying business and the data may become even more valuable because you can teach somebody how to use the tool. But it's much harder to teach someone why the output matters and whether it's actually good. And I think that's one thing that's really interesting about the future of e-commerce careers.
[00:20:22] Like the ladder isn't necessarily disappearing, but how you're getting up that ladder really is changing. So I think, you know, talking with your teams about that and helping them to kind of understand if they don't have these skills in AI, there's probably ways for them to shadow support somebody on a particular project.
[00:20:48] But, you know, some of those other things like technical fluency might come from, you know, maybe looking at somebody on a different type of team than you did before. And you and your role right now, like, is there a specific skill set that you're doubling down on that maybe you didn't before in the wake of AI? Or are you like trying to learn something specific that you think is going to help in the future in your role? I'm just curious because you sit in the space that a lot of our listeners do.
[00:21:17] I mean, I think there was a period of time where I wasn't spending as much time in Excel. And I mean, the last probably 12 months, I spent a lot more time in Excel. So beefing up those skills, if you kind of if they're a little dusty, because that's, you know,
[00:21:37] even if what you have in your PIM is a good base, you can do a lot of you can really increase the output of AI by kind of doing some work in Excel and feeding it, you know, like, hey, this field lives in a couple different spots. I'm going to clean it up. So AI really has what it needs. But I think Excel is a big has become a bigger part of my role. And there was definitely a time where it wasn't for me. I love Excel.
[00:22:06] So it doesn't bother me. And I think another piece that we really haven't talked about a lot, maybe this is for another session, is just the socialization or storytelling behind it. You know, like, really planting the seeds with different people about what your teams are doing and helping them to understand the problem that you're trying to solve.
[00:22:32] So it doesn't become a panic around, hey, this team is doing something that, you know, might be getting too far ahead. But really, you know, like you've done your research about the tools you're using.
[00:22:46] If that step's done, then helping people to understand the why behind why you're using these tools and changing these processes can help to kind of keep you from hitting roadblocks or stalling out on something because, you know, people are kind of questioning whether or not it's the right move. Yeah, I'm curious, and I don't know if you feel comfortable representing this or not.
[00:23:11] But I think about, you know, my experience with the teams at Mars have been that as a company, it's this $65 billion family business, which is astonishing. But there are so many people that I've encountered there who have spent time there or are still there.
[00:23:33] The company seems to really encourage these conversations, encourages the company at it seems like at all levels to engage in this thinking, to like not to not avoid it. And I'm wondering if that's your experience and how these conversations about how to do AI, how to make it work. Are they happening at a global level at Mars? Is it more sort of unit by unit or country by?
[00:24:01] I was just wondering if you have some thoughts about sort of how that's happening at across the levels at Mars. Yeah, I mean, I would say I've seen it in so many different like in town hall levels and, you know, just like community calls. People are talking about how they're using the tools.
[00:24:26] People are really open to sharing their methodology, their process. And so there's a there's a big community around this innovation. And I think it helps a lot when you're trying to have a conversation with a smaller team or a local team about trying something, you know, that's new. If you can be like, we've got another group that's been using this tool for two years. They've had a lot of really good successes.
[00:24:52] So being it if Royal Canaan didn't have that, you know, that type of reach with some of these other brands and the ability to just kind of understand, hey, how are you guys handling this change? It really helps to accelerate some of the work we're doing and to build confidence. And you can learn, you know, what did you do with this tool that didn't work? Or, hey, I'm going to try this tool.
[00:25:20] And somebody can be like, no, don't. Don't do that. You know, that helps a ton, too. You know, it saves you some time. Can you give me a name? No, I'm kidding. And so do you see others coming up? Like, do you see are you seeing around the corner to, OK, the next thing I think might be. I mean, you might not want to share this because you don't want to give away your early adoption. But I'm just wondering what else you see or do you think it's just anyway, that's my question.
[00:25:50] What else do you see? You know, I think. Like if I look at Instacart and the personalization that happens there for me as a consumer, like there's a buy it again section, and that's kind of like I go to that every single time. Instacart has done a really good job of that personalization piece. And I think other retailers are going to continue to invest in their infrastructure,
[00:26:19] how they're, you know, recommending products to customers. I mean, what I would love to see, like if I had a magic wand, it would probably be things like for me, I have a really hard time with subscriptions. Like all of a sudden the next one comes and I'm not ready for it. So like a subscription calculator, something that's like, not like do you want recommended every three months, like something that helps me kind of go, you know, generally I, you know,
[00:26:47] use this blah, blah, blah times and it can give me a recommendation. Um, or like product, you know, quizzes, like something that helps me find what I need. Because right now I'm looking for a light bulb for my bathroom. And, um, I'm on like week three of trying to find the right light bulb. So even with AI, and even with looking on like social media, cause I'm like, I need a warm light bulb.
[00:27:12] Um, but there's so many out there like help me weed out. And I think Alexa for shopping does a great job at that, but it's still sometimes will give you like a three star or something, you know, that you're like, no, we already talked about, we don't want this. So, um, I think a lot more personalization. Um, but that comes with a lot of investment. Um, and so I think you,
[00:27:38] you have to imagine these retailers are investing in that. Um, and, and working on ways to, to make a different experience for customers that can compete with something like a TikTok shop or, you know, Instagram. It's not going to be dull. No, I don't think so. Watching this unfold and staying on top of it, uh, is it's thrilling and exhausting.
[00:28:07] And, uh, we've all been through it for actually, cause I've, I started in e-commerce, uh, like the same time you did in 2012. And so, yeah, yeah, no year 12 of this odyssey and it is never dull. And we rely on folks like you to come on and share with the community and be generous about your experiences and how you all are learning. And it's just really valuable for, for the whole community.
[00:28:36] And I just thank you for doing that. We're really grateful. Well, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks so much, Elise. I appreciate you being a part of the community and that's how we got connected. So I love when that always works out. So thank you so much. Thanks again to Elise for sharing her POV. Be in touch with everything going on at the DSI by becoming a member at digitalshelfinstitute.org. Thanks for being part of our community.