[00:00:00] Welcome to Unpacking the Digital Shelf, where industry leaders share insights, strategies, and stories to help brands win in the ever-changing world of commerce. Hey everyone, Peter Crosby here from the Digital Shelf Institute. We are in chaotic times in marketing.
[00:00:28] Our guest, David Tiltman, Chief Content Officer at WARC, mines some historical references to call it the lightless middle of the tunnel. But encouragingly, the most recent research is telling us that even in the age of machines, brand matters. What are your distinctive brand assets? What are your category re-entry points?
[00:00:50] Being clear on those and ensuring that your entire consumer experience is rich with them and coherent across all of the touchpoints will drive value with both your audiences, human and machine. David, welcome to the podcast. We are so looking forward to digging in with you. We love brains from work. It's great to be here, Peter. I'm hoping, yeah, yeah, very good to be here.
[00:01:16] You know, your title is Chief Content Officer, which I love, and you folks bring so much expertise to what is happening in this space, and so much is going on. But Lauren and I had the chance to look at a few of your more recent reports, and so much of the theme is around the idea of the increasing importance of brand and brand building in this rapidly unfolding agentic era.
[00:01:44] So let's start with one of the major challenges that we saw that brands are facing today, and that is the multi-audience problem. Like how many entities they are speaking to to try to get their message across. Tell us a little bit about that.
[00:01:58] Yeah, so this is a really interesting theme, but as you say, it's part of a broader attempt to understand what building a brand is and means in a changing sort of communications landscape, but also a changing landscape of product discovery and purchase.
[00:02:23] And, you know, this has already been an ongoing theme through the past 10, 15 years where we've seen the rise of lots of different performance advertising techniques. Indeed, the rise of things like retail media when people are constantly asking, does brand still matter? Does brand building still matter? And of course, when AI came along, all of those questions got thrown up again.
[00:02:49] Again, you know, is this going to create a sort of world of perfect discovery where things like messy things like brand equity no longer matter? And actually, what we're finding is, and actually, what we're starting to find is almost like a second order effect of the AI transition is that a strong brand and brand fundamentals actually matters more. We can come on to why that is.
[00:03:17] But in how you build a brand that is ripe for the current moment, but potentially the future moment, that's why we start to see kind of intriguing themes and differences and spaces to explore. And the two audience problem, which you mentioned is one of the biggest.
[00:03:44] So this is a phrase, the two audience problem that we started hearing about earlier in 2026. And the basis of it is, well, actually, if consumer journeys are becoming increasingly AI mediated, that is more and more product discovery is done via a chatbot or with the aid of an LLM in some way.
[00:04:15] Then we have to become much more interested in how that LLM sources information about our product and service and then the role of things like branding, creativity and all the other good stuff within it. And the reason there is a two audience problem is that, and I hope this is sort of not stating the obvious, but kind of humans and machines thinking quite fundamentally different ways.
[00:04:45] And the data that supports this came out at CanLions this year. We saw a really interesting study from a digital advertising company called Jellyfish, who partnered with INSEAD, the sort of academic institution, to study the effect on humans and the effect on LLMs of highly awarded creativity.
[00:05:14] And they took a whole bunch of ads that had been highly awarded for creativity. They looked at the sort of measured response on humans. And so is there any correlation to what the sort of machines pick up on? And basically there was zero correlation. There's completely like you see the charts and there's nothing. There's kind of no, there's nothing there.
[00:05:44] And actually that research has been since a sort of similar study has been done by Kantar and they found exactly the same thing. So this is becoming a sort of repeated thing that sort of the creativity that captures human attention and builds human memory does not do the same thing for a large language model.
[00:06:08] And so you're sort of left wondering, well, does that mean we have to have two entirely independent strategies? You know, if you are in a category where LLMs are becoming more important as part of the purchase process, does that mean you need a strategy for, you might call generative engine optimization or something more, something deeper than that suggests it's just SEO rebadged, as well as what we do for humans.
[00:06:38] Now, there is space in between, which maybe we can go on to discuss, but that in essence is the two audience problem. I think it's fascinating that there's no correlation between what agents and agents are. It really was zero. It was zero. But so let's get dig into that because I think a brand listening to this might be like, oh my gosh, what is my strategy to be?
[00:07:02] But I think let's, let's bring it back to brand equity because I agree with you, David, that I think it's still a superpower in the world of AI where we've even before AI become a little bit more short-term focus versus long-term focus. And I loved in your research that brand equity. It really accounts for 63% of visibility in AI search, which is a huge correlation.
[00:07:25] So when we're talking about that, like how do you define brand in the world of AI and what does it mean and where should brands be kind of focusing their time? Yeah, it's a really good question. So that stat you mentioned, 63%, that came from an analytics company called Charlie Oscar here in the UK. Okay. And they looked at all sorts of the influence of all sorts of different types of marketing input into LLM visibility.
[00:07:55] And they found that 63% came from what they called long-term brand equity. Now, this is a very broad definition of brand equity. And it is essentially saying that the cumulative weight of everything you have done in the past is more important than the relatively small amounts of things you're doing in the present. And of course, that sounds obvious when you think about, you know, what an LLM is drawing from.
[00:08:23] It's drawing from the whole of the internet. Yeah. And actually what this starts to shine a light on is that brands who have had a really clear and strong brand strategy over multiple years and have been relatively consistent in applying that strategy actually have some sort of advantage when it comes into this world.
[00:08:50] And it's for the simple fact that the same words, phrases, associations keep being made with that particular brand. So I'll give you an example from one of the reports we put out about this. And it was certainly true in January when we put the reports out. I'm sure it's still true now.
[00:09:07] If you do any kind of search within one of the major LLMs around the relative benefits of MasterCard, the credit card company, you will probably get the word priceless in your answer. So the word priceless will appear somewhere. And it's obvious why. They've used this as a phrase for like 20 odd years.
[00:09:32] Now, when they came up with this, they weren't planning for some AI-mediated future some way down the line. But because they've consistently used a single phrase, a single idea and extended it all over the place, it then crops up in the answers.
[00:09:50] And again, just that link with all the other things you've seen has got to be some kind of advantage if you're in that, you know, you're looking for a recommendation in that sort of space. So, yes, it does mean that companies that have been more consistent may be at some kind of advantage.
[00:10:12] But it doesn't mean that you can't start now to really think about how to resolve this. And the two sort of big themes that came through from the jellyfish research I mentioned earlier, the jellyfish and lintead research is the stuff in the middle. If you think of this as a Venn diagram, what do humans like and respond to and recognize and what do machines respond to? It is a Venn diagram. There is a bit in the middle.
[00:10:43] And those things are around your marketing jargon, but what we would call distinctiveness. What is it that makes you you? What are the core things about your brand that make you recognizable? And there is this phrase distinctive brand assets that's come from a whole sort of marketing science body of theory. They're actually quite important.
[00:11:10] The other thing which is important is a phrase called category entry points. And that is a jargony way of saying knowing who you are for and when they might need you. And again, having that built out codified and indeed almost sort of surfaced across the Internet is again, it's a superpower.
[00:11:36] So people that have already done the work around distinctive brand assets and category entry points do appear to have some kind of advantage. So, David, I'm trying to align the and I think it has something to do with sort of the broad idea of brand and then the narrower sense of brand.
[00:11:54] But this difference that you talked about that machines and humans do not agree on creative and machines are not engaged by what engages a human versus what you're talking about here. Can you talk about sort of is that the sort of difference between broad and narrow sense of brand? Yeah, I think so.
[00:12:14] So one is about the application of creativity, which is a very much a kind of if you like an advertising framing on this. And that is, of course, important advertising is ultimately how we communicate stuff. But what I guess what I'm talking about is slightly more upstream, slightly more higher order. It's about having a strong brand strategy and that not just appearing.
[00:12:44] Because, again, remember that where a model learns about our brand is not just our website or our communications. It's what people are saying about us on Reddit. It's comment boards. It's all sorts of different inputs.
[00:13:05] So when we're talking about brands here in terms of things like distinctive brand assets category entry points, we're talking about having a really strong upstream understanding of who we are, what we stand for, what we do, how we appear. And over time, that should filter through into the way people talk about us. Now, there is clearly danger here as well. And it's important to understand that, too.
[00:13:28] So we've detected over the last couple of years a phenomenon called the what we call the CX gap, the customer experience gap. And that is in the in the world we live in, particularly the sort of economic environment we've been in for the past few years, particularly in places like Europe. But it's a kind of Western phenomenon. We've seen lots of low growth. Companies looking to prioritize margins.
[00:13:55] And we have seen an erosion of customer experience in it. And it's brought a sense that's clear in all sorts of different data points. The danger for me is where what we say about ourselves in our ads does not match up with the actual experience customers are getting, because that mismatch tends to be where you then get lots of negative word of mouth online. And that then, you know, could be picked up by the model.
[00:14:24] So it does push us into a much broader definition of brands that is not narrowly focused on advertising. It is brand in its broadest sense. When you think about just a quick question around brand equity, you probably have larger brands who have been around for hundreds of years, like MasterCard, who's talking about Priceless. If you're a smaller brand and you're just starting up, you have the ability to be nimble, to adjust to trends and things like that.
[00:14:53] But do you have any advice for where they start from a brand equity standpoint? Right. Because they don't have the history, but they do have other abilities that larger brands don't have. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess there's this sense that large brands have an inbuilt advantage. Of course, they do have the kind of weight of history.
[00:15:16] I think where, again, without going down too many rabbit holes of differentiation and distinctiveness and all that kind of thing, I think where a small brand can really have an advantage is that it doesn't need to cover as many bases as a large brand. It can afford to do a few things really, really well. So I talked about category entry points earlier.
[00:15:43] Can it find two or three category entry points it really wants to sort of just own and be known for and build around? So it can have a sort of benefit in that way in terms of being, you know, that ability to focus as long as you're clear on how you do focus.
[00:16:06] I think also, and we're still learning a little bit about this, smaller brands tend to still get quite a lot of juice out of things like creators and kind of earned media and that kind of thing. The sort of thing that on their own isn't enough for a larger brand. It has to have that sheer weight of numbers in the market.
[00:16:30] And some of those spaces, if they use them smartly, can be areas that things like Reddit as an example, you know, can be where the models pick up information. So I wouldn't assume that because you're a small brand, you, you know, all the cards are stacked against you. You have that ability to be selective and nimble and move quicker than the larger organizations.
[00:17:00] So, David, when we think about it and tell me if I'm going to sort of express a thought and see if it's true that the weight of the brand or where the brand comes from in this broadest sense is a lot from what we might call the context layer that brands are trying to build.
[00:17:23] Right. Which is sort of the why rather than necessarily than the what of things. And and so when you think about that, a lot of the advice that brands are getting is that you need to like core different versions of how somebody can use your product or all the sort of vocabulary of desire in a way like why someone would connect with your product.
[00:17:51] And so a lot of marketers might be thinking, oh, my gosh, I need so many new web pages that represents every single thing. But but I'm not sure that that's necessarily true. And it seems like noise. And I just wanted to get from you sort of how you think about it.
[00:18:09] It's it's really it's a really good point. And I don't know that we've got the the sort of, you know, real long run data to say what is the right thing to do, because. So early. Exactly. It's really early. And as you've just said, the you push that sort of own, you know, be clear who you are, who you stand for, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:18:35] So, yes, you could imagine a thousand different like, I don't know, many YouTube videos or pieces of content that are trying to connect, connect the dots. Now, I think there is danger here. But it's not it's not necessarily to do with the models themselves. It's more to do with actually coming back to to to what we're trying to say to humans.
[00:19:07] And the the danger is so there's some incredible data that we saw in can lines from a company called Creative X. They they were sort of creative testing and audit firm and they studied six hundred and thirty three thousand different ads from all from Fortune 500 brands across the big digital platforms, YouTube, Meta and TikTok.
[00:19:35] And they just they found the sheer scale of fragmentation. And this is between twenty three and twenty five. So this is before everything went, you know, quite as bananas as it's gone in the past year or so. They found that ninety three percent of those ads from Fortune 500 brands had under ten thousand dollars of media spend attached to them and 70 percent had under a thousand.
[00:20:00] So we can already see that this fragmentation is a huge, huge, huge issue. Now, where this starts to create attention for me anyway. Is we've we've already said that having a degree of consistency or what it can lines was called coherence to your communications is really important because it joins it joins the dots. How do you build meaning and build a message out of multiple different things?
[00:20:29] The more stuff you're throwing out there, particularly low budget, high volume, just stuff, the harder it becomes to maintain that strategic discipline. That's that that kind of coherence across your messaging. So I think there is a danger here in that sort of tension between volume and meaning. I think that is a real tension in the market.
[00:20:57] Quite where this goes next, I don't know. I'm not sure. Like we hear a lot of marketers complaining that they are basically churning out content and it's almost kind of getting away from them. This this sort of sense of permanent creation. And they're losing that ability to be strategically focused. So it's a really interesting space. It's we're very early into it. And maybe, you know, one application of AI will be to force that strategic coherence.
[00:21:26] So you could imagine AI being part of the solution as well as the problem. But yeah. So this is going to be a massive talking point over the next few years. Let's stay on the topic of media, because I know it's a hot topic, especially in the world of AI. And there's now AI summaries that were traditionally where search traffic was driving. Performance marketing may have lost some effectiveness versus PR.
[00:21:53] There's community discussions, brand reputation, all these different pieces around media. Do you think that we're witnessing a permanent shift where earned and owned media matter more than paid media budgets from an AI discovery standpoint? And share your kind of thoughts around that media space, because it's a big one. Yeah, I'd hesitate to call anything permanent in the current. Fair point. In the current market.
[00:22:20] And I think it's I think it's really, really unclear. In some ways. If there is a positive. Is there a positive? I'm being optimistic. The past year or so of research has almost acted like a forcing function to get us to remember all the things we should have been thinking about anyway. So. Yes. It's not that. Oh, my God. My word.
[00:22:48] Well, I earned and owned suddenly, suddenly matter. But they've always mattered. We've just not really have the kind of measurement structures or the focus to kind of bring them in properly. So I think this is operating as a bit of a forcing function in terms of paid media itself. Obviously, there is lots of different types of paid media.
[00:23:10] I do think that if the more AI matters in the product discovery process, the more the platforms will look to monetize it. So, like that, this is still sort of, you know, if we're comparing it with the rise of search, which isn't a perfect analogy, but if we are, this is still like early days of Google.
[00:23:36] You know, they haven't screwed everything down and monetized it yet. Yeah. And indeed, if you look at the, you know, maybe it's out of date now, but the some of that initial IPO documentation by open AI, they only get anywhere near their valuation if they have fundamentally transformed the paid media market.
[00:24:01] They're like, whatever it was, $100 billion by 2013, which sounds like, you know, something that Dr. Evil might have said, but, you know, it's a, it's a, you know, that model only works if they fundamentally reshape paid advertising. So I think this is a fluid space that we're going to see a lot more on.
[00:24:27] There is one final point I will make, though, which is I talked about brand equity mattering, but that being the broad, the broadest sense, brand in its broadest sense. We've known for many years that paid media is a relatively small contributor to brand equity.
[00:24:47] So what we see in advertising, it's not tiny, but, you know, studies by people like Cantar put it about 25% of us figure 28% came out in Canline. And obviously it's, it's a space we control. But this is a reminder that the game has always been bigger than paid media.
[00:25:13] And, you know, we may now see more evidence of the ways these other types of, whether we call them media, earned media, owned media, or other kinds of touch points show up. It's becoming more obvious as we learn more about what the models build on. And it does seem like the, as always with these things, it seems like you have to bring it back to the consumer.
[00:25:39] And then what is their journey in this new world, which is really hard to pin down.
[00:25:45] So you thinking, always putting the consumer at the forefront, which I think is, it's hard to do when, I don't know, I think of the alignment of marketing and brand and, you know, channel, all of the sort of cross-functional folks that are involved in creating that consumer experience.
[00:26:11] It seems figuring that out together feels like more important, maybe than each individual. Oh, paid media is going to go do this. And, oh, we got to get, it seems like maybe the coherence also needs to show up in terms of how all these teams work together. I mean, a hundred percent. If this just becomes another marketing silo, then we've lost the opportunity.
[00:26:35] It just becomes like, you know, the SEO team or something like that. This just feels much more holistic than that. Now, you know, we know that large organizations really struggle to operate in a holistic manner, but the ones that manage it, the ones that make it, you would think they would have an advantage.
[00:26:58] What are you seeing of the ones that do, that you have experience with, that you've seen research about, what are you seeing them do that helps them achieve this greater coherence in both sort of team organization, team collaboration, and then therefore coherence out in the world? Yeah, look, it's a great question.
[00:27:20] It's not, I haven't seen anyone completely join the dots with a view to AI, but the, if we think more broadly about the, you know, what does it take to build a sort of integrated team? This is something we've done a lot in the world of brand and performance. We've put out reports that talk about this. And there's, there's lots of really interesting and practical things you can do.
[00:27:43] Obviously, in the perfect world, you have buy-in at C-suite level, which then allows you to generate your North Star vision that can then get transmitted through the teams, et cetera, et cetera. And clearly that is a great, you know, if you've got that opportunity. You also find that a lot of CMOs need to kind of push, push their own agenda while they're pushing on that sort of C-suite agenda as well.
[00:28:14] Because a lot of CMOs walk into, to quite siloed teams, quite entrenched silos, particularly in that brand and performance space. And so there, you know, things like a common language really helps. So are you really clear on what types of customer you need to reach and build penetration with if you are going to grow as an organization?
[00:28:40] Is that clearly articulated through the marketing department? Do you have a clear sense of what your North Star metrics are and how the different things you do will move those metrics? And then there's one, there's one bit of, this comes from Instacart. Instacart is an amazing case study on this, by the way. In terms of Instacart's own marketing and advertising, a lady called Laura Jones has led it.
[00:29:10] It's great. She talked about how they had to make their own weather. And I love this because it's just a very, very sort of practical, really practitioner piece of advice. They realized, they did this big Super Bowl campaign and they realized that having a single point to focus on the Super Bowl,
[00:29:33] it's a moment in time, forced all the teams to come together and work together. So because there was a single moment in time where everything had to be right, all the teams came together and did what they needed to do and collaborated. And she picked up on that. So, well, rather than do that once a year for the Super Bowl, why don't we have a series of temp hole moments through the year?
[00:30:01] And she described that as make your own weather rather than just go by what the category says are the two or three big moments in the year. Develop your own ones. And that, again, act as a forcing function to bring people together. I love that.
[00:30:21] And does that give us a little hint of what the future might look like for brands who are trying to compete for attention in this incredibly noisy and chaotic world of the consumer? Yeah. It's great. So the marketing space is a really interesting one at the moment. It's absolutely fascinating. It feels so much is kind of being rethought as so much is up for grabs.
[00:30:51] I don't know if you're familiar with the phrase, there's light at the end of the tunnel. It's not just a British phrase. So there's a slight, like, random rabbit hole. But there's a book written, I think, after the Second World War, but it's set during the Second World War.
[00:31:14] And it describes the period in England between the Battle of El Alamein and D-Day as the lightless middle of the tunnel. So you're in the middle. You can't see what was behind you and you can't see what's ahead of you, but you know stuff's going to change.
[00:31:33] That feels, that term, the lightless middle of the tunnel is a phrase I use a lot for marketing at the moment because it does feel like we're in a period of transition without a clear sense of where we're heading. I think we can say fairly that the past 10 years has been marked by fragmentation of formats. Huge, huge amounts of fragmentation in terms of the formats and the content that brands create.
[00:32:03] But at the same time, a concentration of value. So a small number of big companies are sucking up the value. So we've got, on the consumer side, if you like, abundance. And on the media side, that real sort of concentration of value. Now, I don't think there's any reason to think this will change.
[00:32:25] The big question is whether it's the existing players, the Googles and the Amazons and the metas of this world that capture the value. Or whether somebody like an open AI can fundamentally break in and reshape the advertising economy. I think the final thing I'd say about this is the key is increasingly about what you might call intent or intention rather than attention.
[00:32:53] So you talk about brands competing for attention. Well, actually, what they're competing for with most of their budgets at the moment is intent. It's about those signals of intent that people like Meta and Google and people like YouTube and all the rest of it are increasingly able to offer us. And that is very true in the retail media space as well. That's going to continue.
[00:33:21] But at the same time, if we do believe that building brands still matters, then any asset able to capture any form of scaled attention, that's what creators do, that's a sports event, a cultural event. That's still going to be appealing to advertisers. But I think that might not always look like a classic media play.
[00:33:44] Things like partnership, sponsorship, those sorts of things we're going to see a lot of focus on as well, because you're still going to want to find those moments of scaled attention. It's just becoming harder to find them in media itself.
[00:34:00] So, David, all of this data and all of this and sort of what comes out of it is really the kinds of signals that folks are looking for right now, because that lightless middle of the tunnel is a very sort of scary, uncertain place to be. And when you individualize it down to the person working in it, it's uncomfortable.
[00:34:29] And I think everyone's trying to figure out what's my next move? Like, in order to be able to be a better marketer in these times, what do you see sort of the best marketers doing?
[00:34:46] You know, when I think of the woman at Instacart, like having those kinds of light bulb moments and the courage in a way, because the natural thing I would think I was putting myself in her place is like, no, go where the noise already is and just win at the noise. But this is sort of a real shift in kind of how to play. And I'm wondering how people work through that. Yeah, it's a good it's a great point.
[00:35:11] And maybe it's sort of worth going back to what we sort of said up at the top of the podcast. And there's still a huge need or if anything, there's even more need for a brand to be really, really clear on what it is, who it's for, when they'll need you. And what makes that brand distinctive or stand out? What makes you, you?
[00:35:37] And I think there's still an awful lot of brands that haven't done a lot of that work and actually spend a lot of time chasing the volume, chasing the noise, chasing trends, chasing fans. And I do think there is, you know, it's much easier to get through the lightness middle of the tunnel if you know who you are and what, because you've then got the train tracks, at least to extend the analogy.
[00:36:05] You know which way you're pointing and you know where you're trying to sort of get to. So I think that's very important. And if you take that back a step further, it's never been more important to be close to the customer. Everything in marketing comes back to, you know, do you know your category? Do you know your consumer?
[00:36:32] Can you, you know, and how quickly can you transfer what you're seeing, what are the shifts you're seeing in your end markets into your own sort of understanding and your own sort of strategies? So I think, you know, while I understand it's a sort of definitely uncertainty in the market, we all feel that. I do think some of those fundamentals are still absolutely fundamental.
[00:37:01] And one double click I'll say to that is you not only need to know kind of who you are, what value you drive, all that, but you need to also communicate that effectively. I know a lot of brands who can articulate that message, but they don't have built out PDPs. They don't talk about it on their brand.com. Like they're not including it in their retail media ads to tell that story. So even to take that one step further, that needs to be part of this strategy. Like how are you telling the story through your creative, through your content?
[00:37:30] Because that doesn't always come through. Then it doesn't matter if you know who you are. That's a great point. It's a great point. And it's, you know, you'd think that would be sort of hygiene level, but it really isn't. There's lots of opportunities there just to, you know, adopt that common language, tighten the consistency or the coherence, whatever we want to call it. Yeah. And Lauren, you saying that just brings that word coherence, like booming back into the front of my brain. When I was reading about that, I don't know why it struck me so much.
[00:37:59] Maybe because so often I see that word in the negative, in the incoherent. But you don't often hear people talking about, oh, we should, we, and I don't know why. I don't know if the listeners will have the same experience, but I felt like that's a real touchstone sort of watchword. I think as, as you, as, as we might apply tests to whether or not we are meeting that, that level. And what does that take? And what does that mean at your organization?
[00:38:29] And how does it change the way in which you work, test, et cetera? For me, it sort of stood out. So thanks for at least sparking that. It's exactly that. And it's, it's, you know, Lauren just mentioned things like PDPs, but it's also in things like your customer service emails or your CX onboarding stream or whatever.
[00:38:53] Is, is your sort of distinctive tone of voice or your point of view on the world coming through all of that? Or have you just let the, you know, the, the product and dev team put together the, put together the words and the email and it all just feels very sort of machine driven. So I think there's still loads of opportunity to, to build some of that coherence and it's, it's becoming so important.
[00:39:22] David, I know work, a lot of what you produce is, is available only to your, your customers, but is work.com, are there resources there where folks could sort of dip their toe into some of this? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So we have, we have a whole product that's free to, free to access. You just, you just sort of register for it and you, you get lots of great content for free.
[00:39:49] And then obviously the sort of paying subscribers get a much deeper set of research, case studies, examples, and, and all the rest of it. We also have our own podcast as well. It's called very imaginatively the walk podcast. But, um, it's some branding right there, David. It is, it is definitely distinctive. Well, thank you so much, uh, for sharing all of this data and this perspective with us. It's super valuable to our audience.
[00:40:18] And, and, uh, and I, I know Lauren and I always appreciate, uh, folks who will come and give, give to our community. So thank you so much, David. No, it's an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much, David. Thanks to David for all the coherence. Thanks for more of that, swing on over to the resources section at digitalshelfinstitute.org and become a member while you're there. Thanks for being part of our community.